Night Bombing Problems (Full Version)

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2ndACR -> Night Bombing Problems (10/15/2004 10:13:04 AM)

Just wondering if you guys are going to look into the problems with night bombing?

The accuracy is unreal, immune to CAP, immune to AAA, low ops loss, low fatigue. It really needs to be looked at very hard. Just put the entire allied air force on night port raids or airfield raids and watch the carnage. If you really want to test it, just pack as many AAA units, lots of supplies into a base with some ships, put about 80 Japanese fighters on night CAP and the results will be the same. Forget daylight raids, except for naval strikes, just go with night raids.



Ron Saueracker -> RE: Night Bombing Problems (10/15/2004 10:18:48 AM)

Yeah, it's so bad that I find I can't even use it, except for Blenheim 1Fs, without feeling like a poof. Gamey as hell to use it too much.



Bosun -> RE: Night Bombing Problems (10/15/2004 10:23:52 AM)

Right! No sense in being a gamey poof by whacking defenseless night blind Sons of Nippon.[:-]



kaiser73 -> RE: Night Bombing Problems (10/15/2004 10:40:15 AM)

Agreed. I never use it when playing allies cause it's too easy to bring destruction without losses, regardless of air superiority.



pauk -> RE: Night Bombing Problems (10/15/2004 10:43:01 AM)

I would say that night bombing are too effective for both sides. Playing Japan i have no problem at all with destroying allied power at rangoon and rest of burma with night bombing mission.

Secondly, look at the PzB AAR and see damage done to the ships in the port by his LBA (again night bombing).

Of course, this can be annyoing for allies, but later in the game it is devastating for japanese.

Making a 'house rule' - no night bombing - wont be satisfying for allied player, because allies poundering japanese industry with massive night attacks.

what to do?



WhoCares -> RE: Night Bombing Problems (10/15/2004 11:37:27 AM)

You might be right about the accuracy of night raids and maybe op. losses, but with respect to disruption and fatigue, night raids were by far safer then day time attacks, as it was by far more difficult for AA and fighters to locate and attack bombers in the night.



Halsey -> RE: Night Bombing Problems (10/15/2004 12:49:41 PM)

Any suggestions to house rule implementation?

1. Size of airfield for strike aircraft? Level 7+
2. Limiting strike size? Only one squadron (no groups) per qualifying airfield.
3. B-29's, one group strikes allowed per qualifying airfield.
4. Wait for it to be addressed by the Betas?

Any ideas?



String -> RE: Night Bombing Problems (10/15/2004 12:54:04 PM)

allow only city attacks for night bombing... that's what it was mainly used for no?



Halsey -> RE: Night Bombing Problems (10/15/2004 12:59:23 PM)

That's a very good suggestion.
That would allow area targets as legitimate.
Maybe only allow game designated night units to attack tactical targets.(airfields, ports, ground units)
Night naval attacks seem to be alright. As they happen infrequently.

Tactical night bombing operations were few and far between. Usually only carried out by special ops air units.



Captain Cruft -> RE: Night Bombing Problems (10/15/2004 1:27:16 PM)

I second the motion (needs looking at in game engine).

In a recent PBEM turn I had 4 Hudsons destroy 5 planes on the ground and damage about 10 more on a night airfield attack. This was at 7,000 feet. Yeah right ...



Ron Saueracker -> RE: Night Bombing Problems (10/15/2004 1:31:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: String

allow only city attacks for night bombing... that's what it was mainly used for no?


I LIKE IT!



Speedysteve -> RE: Night Bombing Problems (10/15/2004 4:43:55 PM)

I'm with some sort of restriction/change.

Night bombing does seem too accurate with tactical bombing (LCU, Airfield, Port.).

In my current PBEM with Hard_Sarge whenever he (Allies) attacks at night there is NOTHING I can do - CAP, AA do nothing. Damage is caused. Luckily he doesn't do it that often otherwise I would be pretty p****d. Worst raid was 30-40 B17's bombing Rabaul destroying 12 G4M's, couple of patrol planes and 6 Zero's. This was out of a total (at the time) of 75 planes! 4 nights of that and my entire force in the area would be wiped out.

End of the day it is feasible for the Allied player to continuously bomb at night and pound the Jap into submission. Ridiculous I know but it shouldn't even be possible.

Either night bombing should be restricted to certain targets (city), minelaying etc

OR

There should be tweaks to make AA (more so than CAP since Jap didn't have co-ordinated night defence) more effective/LBA take bigger fatigue hits to prevent continuous night bombing/PERHAPS MOST IMPORTANTLY reduce accuracy - seems far to accurate at tactical missions. IN GENERAL BC would be lucky to get within a mile of their targets (A CITY!)

Just my thoughts.......

Regards,

Steven



Ron Saueracker -> RE: Night Bombing Problems (10/15/2004 8:21:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedy

I'm with some sort of restriction/change.

Night bombing does seem too accurate with tactical bombing (LCU, Airfield, Port.).

In my current PBEM with Hard_Sarge whenever he (Allies) attacks at night there is NOTHING I can do - CAP, AA do nothing. Damage is caused. Luckily he doesn't do it that often otherwise I would be pretty p****d. Worst raid was 30-40 B17's bombing Rabaul destroying 12 G4M's, couple of patrol planes and 6 Zero's. This was out of a total (at the time) of 75 planes! 4 nights of that and my entire force in the area would be wiped out.

End of the day it is feasible for the Allied player to continuously bomb at night and pound the Jap into submission. Ridiculous I know but it shouldn't even be possible.

Either night bombing should be restricted to certain targets (city), minelaying etc

OR

There should be tweaks to make AA (more so than CAP since Jap didn't have co-ordinated night defence) more effective/LBA take bigger fatigue hits to prevent continuous night bombing/PERHAPS MOST IMPORTANTLY reduce accuracy - seems far to accurate at tactical missions. IN GENERAL BC would be lucky to get within a mile of their targets (A CITY!)

Just my thoughts.......

Regards,

Steven


I'd pretend to have ISP problems until he agrees to a house rule. Anyone who does not see this as gamey is either of two things, a gamey player or a player with no conscience.[8D]



pfnognoff -> RE: Night Bombing Problems (10/16/2004 12:41:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoCares

You might be right about the accuracy of night raids and maybe op. losses, but with respect to disruption and fatigue, night raids were by far safer then day time attacks, as it was by far more difficult for AA and fighters to locate and attack bombers in the night.


I'm no expert, but shouldn't the attackers have the same dificulty targeting the airfield at night? It is safer but it must be less effective, by far! At the moment it looks to be better to attack the airfield by night, because you can catch more (if not all) on the ground, with what looks to be the same accuracy.



siRkid -> RE: Night Bombing Problems (10/16/2004 2:09:18 AM)

Ok, we had a problem in UV with night bombing that we fixed. The change must not have came over. Night bombing is something I will look at for the next patch. My soluton is to make the fatigue and operational loses for groups conducting the mission much higher. Also, to improve night fighters with radar kill rate. If we can come up with a list of possible fixes, I'll post them in a poll and we can go from there.



Nomad -> RE: Night Bombing Problems (10/16/2004 2:54:37 AM)

I beg to differ here Kid, it is NOT fixed in UV. [:(] Night bombing has the same kind of effects, super accurate, low fatigue hit, low ops losses, etc.



denisonh -> RE: Night Bombing Problems (10/16/2004 2:58:35 AM)

I think night raids are too effective, but it is the size of the raids that needs to be looked at.

Small night raids were used quite a bit during the war (B-17s hit Rabaul at night fairly frequently), but "large scale" night missions were used for City bombing, not "point targets".

A possible way to address this is similiar to the CV coordination rule, penalizing large night strikes against airfields/ports. Night strikes were not by nature well coordinated.

Also similiar to skip bombing, requiring a higher experience to be effective as well.



Halsey -> RE: Night Bombing Problems (10/16/2004 2:59:00 AM)

Thanks for looking into this Kid. It seems that a some gamers have switched to entirely night land attack missions to deal out good damage for little risk of return casualties.[8D]



fbastos -> RE: Night Bombing Problems (10/16/2004 3:27:14 AM)

quote:

allow only city attacks for night bombing... that's what it was mainly used for no?


I think that the Germans used night bombing against the troop concentrations in Normandy. Looks like there were so many soldiers there that anywhere the bombs fell, they would cause damage.

Also, night bombing doesn't let troops sleep. I think that the Soviets used several biplanes on night bombing missions, just to wake up the Germans.

F.



siRkid -> RE: Night Bombing Problems (10/16/2004 4:14:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

I beg to differ here Kid, it is NOT fixed in UV. [:(] Night bombing has the same kind of effects, super accurate, low fatigue hit, low ops losses, etc.



Thats odd because I tested it myself. Oh well, lets get it right this time.



sven6345789 -> RE: Night Bombing Problems (10/16/2004 6:09:07 AM)

maybe experience should play a role, like when experience drops below 70, the effects of night bombing get reduced severely (like skip bombing)



pfnognoff -> RE: Night Bombing Problems (10/16/2004 9:29:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: denisonh

I think night raids are too effective, but it is the size of the raids that needs to be looked at.

Small night raids were used quite a bit during the war (B-17s hit Rabaul at night fairly frequently), but "large scale" night missions were used for City bombing, not "point targets".


Sometimes even the size of the strike doesn't matter. The accuracy can get very high, look at this report:

Night Air attack on Moulmein , at 29,35

Japanese aircraft
Ki-48 Lily x 12

Allied aircraft
Hurricane II x 13
Blenheim IF x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-48 Lily: 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Hurricane II: 4 destroyed, 7 damaged
Blenheim IF: 2 destroyed

Airbase hits 2
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 5

Aircraft Attacking:
12 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 9000 feet

It was size 4 airfield fortification level 6 with enough airsupport. There were 4 sqdn of Hurricanes II and the night fighter-bomber sqdn. I had one Hurri and Blen sqdn on the night LRCAP over their own base. The overall effectivnes must be reduced.



pfnognoff -> RE: Night Bombing Problems (10/16/2004 9:34:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sven6345789

maybe experience should play a role, like when experience drops below 70, the effects of night bombing get reduced severely (like skip bombing)


It definately should be higher requirement. As is now, I have managed to persuade my IL-4 Chineese squadron to fly night air-attack mission over the biggest IJ airbase in China without any losses. Not even OP on landing. They were exp 52 morale 51 fatigue 15 at the moment I gave the order. They did have some B-17s allongside, maybe it helped? [8D]



Apollo11 -> RE: Night Bombing Problems (10/16/2004 10:11:50 AM)

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kid

Night bombing is something I will look at for the next patch. My soluton is to make the fatigue and operational loses for groups conducting the mission much higher. Also, to improve night fighters with radar kill rate. If we can come up with a list of possible fixes, I'll post them in a poll and we can go from there.


Thanks!


Leo "Apollo11"



Howard Mitchell -> RE: Night Bombing Problems (10/16/2004 12:49:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kid

Night bombing is something I will look at for the next patch. My soluton is to make the fatigue and operational loses for groups conducting the mission much higher. Also, to improve night fighters with radar kill rate. If we can come up with a list of possible fixes, I'll post them in a poll and we can go from there.


I'm not sure that the fatigue should be much higher - the tempo of RAF Bomber Command's night operations matched that of the 8th Air Force's daylight raids for example. Night attacks should be much less co-ordinated, but surely the main effect should be a great reduction in bombing accuracy. Again quoting the example of the European theatre, Bomber Command switched to area bombing because it was incapable of hitting anything smaller in the early war years.



Ron Saueracker -> RE: Night Bombing Problems (10/16/2004 2:59:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Howard Mitchell

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kid

Night bombing is something I will look at for the next patch. My soluton is to make the fatigue and operational loses for groups conducting the mission much higher. Also, to improve night fighters with radar kill rate. If we can come up with a list of possible fixes, I'll post them in a poll and we can go from there.


I'm not sure that the fatigue should be much higher - the tempo of RAF Bomber Command's night operations matched that of the 8th Air Force's daylight raids for example. Night attacks should be much less co-ordinated, but surely the main effect should be a great reduction in bombing accuracy. Again quoting the example of the European theatre, Bomber Command switched to area bombing because it was incapable of hitting anything smaller in the early war years.


Accuracy should be dropped, disruption increased (simulate loose bomber stream), agree that fatigue and morale should not dramatically change.

On accuracy...At night, given the lack of accurate precision, perhaps not only should incidence of hits be reduced, but they might also be non specific. I'd say night missions can only attack city targets if 4E bombers, but anything be eligible for damage...manpower, heavy industry, resources, port supply, port, ships in port, airfields, airfield supply, LCUs etc. 2E and 1E aircraft can attempt tactical targets but suffer higher ops losses if not night equipped/trained and have very high incidence of failure to locate target.



esteban -> RE: Night Bombing Problems (10/16/2004 5:19:17 PM)

I agree with much lower accuracy and somewhat higher fatigue, op losses and inability to find the target.



DJAndrews -> RE: Night Bombing Problems (10/16/2004 10:31:06 PM)

Night bombing and night fighters were more prevalent in in Europe than in the Pacific. They used large bomber groups to area-bomb and pathfinder squadrons mark the route. In the Pacific, logistics and terrain made night bombing much less useful until later in the war.

There should be a restriction on the number of planes that fly a night mission and the results should be based on a dispersed bomb effect. This being said, there should be the ability for an occassional "critcal" hit to account for lucky hits on fuel or ammo dumps and surprise attacks by small specialized groups such as the "Black Cats".

Another thing that used to occur in UV that should be checked is the CV night attack. In UV it used to be possible to launch a night carrier attack on a base and yet have all aircraft fit and ready to fight a carrier action the next day (ie they accunmulated no fatigue). I haven't tried it in WITP yet, but there should be severe restriction for night operations with CVs because this just wasn't done until late in the war.



BlackVoid -> RE: Night Bombing Problems (10/18/2004 1:52:17 PM)

I am happy that this issue will be looked at, night bombing is "uber" at the moment. In China I had to move my air groups back to Chungking to avoid being slaughtered.



Hard Sarge -> RE: Night Bombing Problems (10/18/2004 6:20:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedy

I'm with some sort of restriction/change.

Night bombing does seem too accurate with tactical bombing (LCU, Airfield, Port.).

In my current PBEM with Hard_Sarge whenever he (Allies) attacks at night there is NOTHING I can do - CAP, AA do nothing. Damage is caused. Luckily he doesn't do it that often otherwise I would be pretty p****d. Worst raid was 30-40 B17's bombing Rabaul destroying 12 G4M's, couple of patrol planes and 6 Zero's. This was out of a total (at the time) of 75 planes! 4 nights of that and my entire force in the area would be wiped out.

End of the day it is feasible for the Allied player to continuously bomb at night and pound the Jap into submission. Ridiculous I know but it shouldn't even be possible.

Either night bombing should be restricted to certain targets (city), minelaying etc

OR

There should be tweaks to make AA (more so than CAP since Jap didn't have co-ordinated night defence) more effective/LBA take bigger fatigue hits to prevent continuous night bombing/PERHAPS MOST IMPORTANTLY reduce accuracy - seems far to accurate at tactical missions. IN GENERAL BC would be lucky to get within a mile of their targets (A CITY!)

Just my thoughts.......

Regards,

Steven


I'd pretend to have ISP problems until he agrees to a house rule. Anyone who does not see this as gamey is either of two things, a gamey player or a player with no conscience.[8D]


Hi Ron
well, I got to say, I sort of resent this kind of reply, if my partner thinks it is right or wrong, we can talk and make our own rules, we already had a replay of a turn, where I did something that had been posted as a bug, that I had not seen, so we rerun the turn

and as this is a test game, waiting on the patch, house rules to be found and set up for the next game is a good idea

I would be more then happy to set up a rule that only City attacks can be made at night (only I hold out that Night Fighter/Intruders and seach planes can be flown at night also, since they were)

LOL and don't forget, Speedy is doing the same with his Betties that I am doing with my Forts

HARD_Sarge



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