RE: Absolutely superb AI

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PresbyterJohn -> RE: Absolutely superb AI (11/4/2004 9:31:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wodin Talking of AI. I really want to play Lock and Load but no I'd never actually play it even if I bought it. I would love them to bring otu a PC version so I could finally play against an AI. Not as good I know as another human but I at leats get to enjoy a game or two. To go on about games shouldnt have an AI is to be honest damn right selfish. Do you ever consider anyone else? I don't know how many times I have to say this. Some people are just plain deaf. They are selling games without AI right now. It's just that they are played on a hex board. People buy them and play them, get this, without AI. You'll be stunned I'm sure, but it's true. Now given all the hassles associated with playing those games, why is it so hard to ask for what is essentially a computerised play assistant. Can you imagine playing ASL (for example) without having to look for counters, or without having to check for LOS with a length of thread. The counters and markers will always be there, placed correctly, and at the right phase. LOS determinations will be simple, and DRM's will be exactly correct. And the whole process will be faster, even if you know the charts off by heart. Take into account that this will all be happening on a computer screen and not a billiard table size playing area and it is even better. Now please explain why that's selfish, or is it just that you don't give a damn for people who might want a better experience that that currently offered by board games. Well? Of course I imagine this sort of gaming software would be expensive but somebody like you would probably be selfish enough to insist that it have an AI too, and that way nobody could afford it. Great. Just perfect for you and crappy for anybody else who likes the game. As for Lock 'n Load, why not play the VASSAL version? It comes on a CD with the game, you just have to have internet access and an opponent lined up (Hint: check the LnL forum). Perhaps that is too much of a challenge but then for some people so is getting up in the morning. If you really want to play people there are ways. If you just want to win against a lame AI then go for it.

ravinhood -> RE: Absolutely superb AI (11/4/2004 4:41:32 PM)
quote: They are selling games without AI right now. It's just that they are played on a hex board. People buy them and play them, get this, without AI. Well if someone is already making these games without an AI, what is your complaint? Seems you are getting what you want, now you want "more"? You want "all" games to be made without an AI? That doesn't really make sense. And perhaps you are on the wrong forum, maybe, you should be on the forum where those makers of these games without AI's are and tell them you want a more "convient" board game to computer game conversion of these games. Like I said, I understand what you are wanting, I was that way when I first started playing computer wargames, but, have sense moved on and accepted the new form of wargaming, that comes not only with the game to be played solo, with someone else or against yourself, but, with an AI opponent as well. Btw other than ASL for computer and Aide de Camp by HPS, what other games have a computer driven game map, counters and such, without an AI? I'd be interested to know.

ioticus -> RE: Absolutely superb AI (11/4/2004 6:47:36 PM)
Prestor John, I don't understand your point. I can't think of any computer wargames that can't be played hotseat or by email. Do you want an entire line of computer wargames with no AI? I really doubt there is a market for that, but there might be. The computer gaming market is different from the boardgame market. I think most people, like myself, play a computer game because they can't or don't want to play against another person.

ggallagher -> RE: Absolutely superb AI (11/4/2004 8:00:06 PM)
Actually, I think Decision Games, makers of board-based wargames, has already published a line of "AI-less" computer wargames, to very limited success. I belive their titles include War in Europe, a real monster if you recall.....

PresbyterJohn -> RE: Absolutely superb AI (11/4/2004 11:50:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ioticus Prestor John, I don't understand your point. I can't think of any computer wargames that can't be played hotseat or by email. Do you want an entire line of computer wargames with no AI? I really doubt there is a market for that, but there might be. The computer gaming market is different from the boardgame market. I think most people, like myself, play a computer game because they can't or don't want to play against another person. Unfortunately there are no computer games that match the board games for detail (read as complexity if you will) and that also have a reasonable AI. Case in point is WitP I think. Another very popular game is TOAW - buit the AI is pretty terrible. Now BiN is doing well but the AI does have a couple of weak points when playing allies. Covering those weak points might be added in to the AI but will the effort be worthwhile (cost effective)? Better to look at really good games like ASL and World in Flames. AI is almost impossible to build for a half competant game. So ditch the AI, save the money, and just make the board game on the medium of the computer, with the rules built into the system. This way the games have more access to the market due to convenience.

PresbyterJohn -> RE: Absolutely superb AI (11/4/2004 11:57:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ravinhood quote: They are selling games without AI right now. It's just that they are played on a hex board. People buy them and play them, get this, without AI. Well if someone is already making these games without an AI, what is your complaint? Seems you are getting what you want, now you want "more"? You want "all" games to be made without an AI? That doesn't really make sense. And perhaps you are on the wrong forum, maybe, you should be on the forum where those makers of these games without AI's are and tell them you want a more "convient" board game to computer game conversion of these games. Like I said, I understand what you are wanting, I was that way when I first started playing computer wargames, but, have sense moved on and accepted the new form of wargaming, that comes not only with the game to be played solo, with someone else or against yourself, but, with an AI opponent as well. Btw other than ASL for computer and Aide de Camp by HPS, what other games have a computer driven game map, counters and such, without an AI? I'd be interested to know. Actually no, I only want some good games. Games like ASL and World in Flames as I've already mentioned. I couldn't care less if companies pump out rubbish games with terrible AI for the masses to soak up. You guys can have a ball with them I'm sure. But why waste time and effort giving a terrible AI to what could have been a much better game without the AI. My complaint is just for those games which have the potential to be truly great, like some boardgames, but resources are squandered on a useless AI instead of making the 2 player game the best it could be. So dump the AI when you know it's going to be hopeless, and don't listen to the people who are saying "I will buy any game as long as it has an AI, no matter how dumb it is".

Adam Parker -> RE: Absolutely superb AI (11/5/2004 12:21:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ggallagher Actually, I think Decision Games, makers of board-based wargames, has already published a line of "AI-less" computer wargames, to very limited success. I belive their titles include War in Europe, a real monster if you recall..... I also remember when ADG's World in Flames was first touted for the PC, they published a survey to see whether people would buy the game without an AI. I believe the response was close to 50/50. My response at the time, was that the graphics were so poor and far removed from the beauty of the board game, that either way, I wouldn't bother. Yes, John I would love ASL in all its board glory of the PC that could play solitaire without an AI and all the inconveniencing of needing to remember the rules, check LOS and apply DRM's. However, given the very adequate AI in Close Combat 5 Normandy, why would I now want that? The one thing the computer is giving us, that board gamers have always craved for and I've said it before in this thread, is an umpire. That umpire is also known as Fog of War and FOW is best applied via an AI. An AI-less game could at best, offer hidden opponent views via self-hotseat. Either way, you'll still know where the enemy (your alter ego) is planning his schwerepunkt and its impossible to apply the tactics of bluff which only true FOW can allow. That's why an AI-less ASL will not work as we wish. Too many scenarios rely on bluff and guile, unless a player is merely interested in playing in a "gaming laboratory" where these essential aspects of warfare are simply not possible in a 2 player intended solitaire setting. Try breaking out to the West in 1945 from Berlin as the Meuchenburg Division but knowing exactly which of the 4 bridges you're going to use. Are you as your Soviet alter ego going to ignore this inside info when placing your intendedly "hidden" units? A key feature of ASL is the "?" Concealed feature. How many solitarie players have used it? That's why "Solitaire ASL" was launched by Avalon Hill. IOW PC war gaming is finally reaching the point, where AI's can be sufficiently refined to allow things board gaming simply cannot. Board gaming retains only a few trumps over the PC at present and these too will slowly begin to be whittled away: 1. House rules. 2. Unlimited DYO. 3. Unlimited pre-game setup. John Tiller as we speak is working with the US military in the field of AI which will have a commercial application in the future. SSG is already supplying a more than fine example of the AI art with Battles In Normandy. Panther are refining their own spin with their Highway to the Reich system and Koios in their own way are providing yet another competitive variant with their ancients title. Not to forget Battlefront with the Combat Mission franchise and Atomic's Close Combat series. The march is on. Sid Meier did a fine job with Alpha Centauri and Gettysburg a few years ago now. It's the "Nintendo School" that is continuing the bad taste of the past decade of lameless efforts, with titles such as last month's shameful Rome Total Bore. They will soon become the exception. Anyway, this is just my response to the debate in general - ie: that AI's offer no advantage over the past 50 years of board breeding. They do. And its now for the PC to begin addressing the remaining advantages board gaming holds, to really prove that the genre has come of age. My .02 [;)] Adam.

wodin -> RE: Absolutely superb AI (11/5/2004 2:43:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Prester John quote: ORIGINAL: wodin Talking of AI. I really want to play Lock and Load but no I'd never actually play it even if I bought it. I would love them to bring otu a PC version so I could finally play against an AI. Not as good I know as another human but I at leats get to enjoy a game or two. To go on about games shouldnt have an AI is to be honest damn right selfish. Do you ever consider anyone else? I don't know how many times I have to say this. Some people are just plain deaf. They are selling games without AI right now. It's just that they are played on a hex board. People buy them and play them, get this, without AI. You'll be stunned I'm sure, but it's true. Now given all the hassles associated with playing those games, why is it so hard to ask for what is essentially a computerised play assistant. Can you imagine playing ASL (for example) without having to look for counters, or without having to check for LOS with a length of thread. The counters and markers will always be there, placed correctly, and at the right phase. LOS determinations will be simple, and DRM's will be exactly correct. And the whole process will be faster, even if you know the charts off by heart. Take into account that this will all be happening on a computer screen and not a billiard table size playing area and it is even better. Now please explain why that's selfish, or is it just that you don't give a damn for people who might want a better experience that that currently offered by board games. Well? Of course I imagine this sort of gaming software would be expensive but somebody like you would probably be selfish enough to insist that it have an AI too, and that way nobody could afford it. Great. Just perfect for you and crappy for anybody else who likes the game. As for Lock 'n Load, why not play the VASSAL version? It comes on a CD with the game, you just have to have internet access and an opponent lined up (Hint: check the LnL forum). Perhaps that is too much of a challenge but then for some people so is getting up in the morning. If you really want to play people there are ways. If you just want to win against a lame AI then go for it. Thanks PrestorJohn, Your post is rather rude. I do know of one game without an AI Laser Squad Nemesis. I want a game with all the things you want but with an AI aswell. Whats wrong with that? Some people believe it or not do not have an internet connection as they cant afford one. Also whats selfish anout your idea is that people who dont have an internet connection or want to play against another person for the reasons I mentioned in my last post need an AI. With your idea of no AI then these people will miss out on the game. This isnt fair. Funny enough I know boardgames dont have an AI. Shock Horror. However that is the beauty of PC's. You can play games without actually needing someone else there and you dont need all the other negatives you mentioned aswell. READ MY POST. As for beating a lame AI. I have Suqad Battles. I dont play against the AI. I PBEM. However Im pleased it has one. So OTHER people (who havent the confidence to play someone else or who dont have an internet connection) can at least enjoy the game. Also I dont feel that time or effort is wasted in making an AI at all. Sorry. If a game is being made by a good company/developer and the system works and it looks OK then whats the problem. PC's are powerfull enough these days to have it all. You dont have to make a chose betwen one or the other. I do know that Lock and Load can be played using Vasl. However I dont want that. I want a fully working PC title with an AI and all the rules. With the hope of expansions later. Not a boardgame with some kind of added etc that really wouldnt be of the standerd as a full priced game. I'd also want to play it when I wanted not when someone else wants to. Also as for the getting out of bed etc tec. Im disabled and have severe motability problems. So you certainly put your foot in it there didnt you.

wodin -> RE: Absolutely superb AI (11/5/2004 2:49:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Prester John Actually no, I only want some good games. Games like ASL and World in Flames as I've already mentioned. Funny enough so would I. With an AI aswell. It can be done you know;)

PresbyterJohn -> RE: Absolutely superb AI (11/5/2004 10:32:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Adam Parker quote: ORIGINAL: ggallagher Actually, I think Decision Games, makers of board-based wargames, has already published a line of "AI-less" computer wargames, to very limited success. I belive their titles include War in Europe, a real monster if you recall..... I also remember when ADG's World in Flames was first touted for the PC, they published a survey to see whether people would buy the game without an AI. I believe the response was close to 50/50. My response at the time, was that the graphics were so poor and far removed from the beauty of the board game, that either way, I wouldn't bother. Yes, John I would love ASL in all its board glory of the PC that could play solitaire without an AI and all the inconveniencing of needing to remember the rules, check LOS and apply DRM's. However, given the very adequate AI in Close Combat 5 Normandy, why would I now want that? The one thing the computer is giving us, that board gamers have always craved for and I've said it before in this thread, is an umpire. That umpire is also known as Fog of War and FOW is best applied via an AI. An AI-less game could at best, offer hidden opponent views via self-hotseat. Either way, you'll still know where the enemy (your alter ego) is planning his schwerepunkt and its impossible to apply the tactics of bluff which only true FOW can allow. That's why an AI-less ASL will not work as we wish. Too many scenarios rely on bluff and guile, unless a player is merely interested in playing in a "gaming laboratory" where these essential aspects of warfare are simply not possible in a 2 player intended solitaire setting. Try breaking out to the West in 1945 from Berlin as the Meuchenburg Division but knowing exactly which of the 4 bridges you're going to use. Are you as your Soviet alter ego going to ignore this inside info when placing your intendedly "hidden" units? A key feature of ASL is the "?" Concealed feature. How many solitarie players have used it? That's why "Solitaire ASL" was launched by Avalon Hill. What can I say, other than that you don't seem to understand the concept of playing a two player board game on the computer. You're saying that it won't work solitare. Who cares? The idea is not to play solitare but against other players. To say that AI-less games won't work because you can't play them solitare is pretty twisted logic and completely irrelavent. And the same thing goes for your objection about concealment markers. They will work exactly the same way as in the board game. Don't go saying that concealment markers don't work in ASL either. There is no need to introduce some new fog of war ideas, and then say that they won't work. Don't introduce them in the first place, just stick to the game as it is. But I do agree that a two player only board game conversion to computer must look good. The artwork in boardgames contributes to their value and gameplay. A lot of older computer games look damn ugly when a comparison is made but when EGA was the best available what can you do. That is no longer the case and visual appeal is important so it's not just anti-cheat security and ease of play which is important. Lastly, why do you need an AI as an umpire? quote: IOW PC war gaming is finally reaching the point, where AI's can be sufficiently refined to allow things board gaming simply cannot. Board gaming retains only a few trumps over the PC at present and these too will slowly begin to be whittled away: 1. House rules. 2. Unlimited DYO. 3. Unlimited pre-game setup. John Tiller as we speak is working with the US military in the field of AI which will have a commercial application in the future. SSG is already supplying a more than fine example of the AI art with Battles In Normandy. Panther are refining their own spin with their Highway to the Reich system and Koios in their own way are providing yet another competitive variant with their ancients title. Not to forget Battlefront with the Combat Mission franchise and Atomic's Close Combat series. The march is on. Sid Meier did a fine job with Alpha Centauri and Gettysburg a few years ago now. It's the "Nintendo School" that is continuing the bad taste of the past decade of lameless efforts, with titles such as last month's shameful Rome Total Bore. They will soon become the exception. Anyway, this is just my response to the debate in general - ie: that AI's offer no advantage over the past 50 years of board breeding. They do. And its now for the PC to begin addressing the remaining advantages board gaming holds, to really prove that the genre has come of age. My .02 [;)] Adam. You can go for it with better AI's, it's a great research topic for the computer scientists, and is sure to keep a couple of people amused. But what's the point of paying for an AI that doesn't offer a challenge?

PresbyterJohn -> RE: Absolutely superb AI (11/5/2004 11:09:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wodin Thanks PrestorJohn, Your post is rather rude. I do know of one game without an AI Laser Squad Nemesis. I want a game with all the things you want but with an AI aswell. Whats wrong with that? Some people believe it or not do not have an internet connection as they cant afford one. Also whats selfish anout your idea is that people who dont have an internet connection or want to play against another person for the reasons I mentioned in my last post need an AI. With your idea of no AI then these people will miss out on the game. This isnt fair. Funny enough I know boardgames dont have an AI. Shock Horror. However that is the beauty of PC's. You can play games without actually needing someone else there and you dont need all the other negatives you mentioned aswell. READ MY POST. As for beating a lame AI. I have Suqad Battles. I dont play against the AI. I PBEM. However Im pleased it has one. So OTHER people (who havent the confidence to play someone else or who dont have an internet connection) can at least enjoy the game. Also I dont feel that time or effort is wasted in making an AI at all. Sorry. If a game is being made by a good company/developer and the system works and it looks OK then whats the problem. PC's are powerfull enough these days to have it all. You dont have to make a chose betwen one or the other. I do know that Lock and Load can be played using Vasl. However I dont want that. I want a fully working PC title with an AI and all the rules. With the hope of expansions later. Not a boardgame with some kind of added etc that really wouldnt be of the standerd as a full priced game. I'd also want to play it when I wanted not when someone else wants to. Also as for the getting out of bed etc tec. Im disabled and have severe motability problems. So you certainly put your foot in it there didnt you. Hey, you're the one who is selfish enough to want an AI for all wargames, so don't come the bent banana with me. Same goes for any other personal problems you may have. You have made it on to the internet, and are able to post messages, and I presume also able to interact with computer games. You've made it that far so you are fair game when it comes to criticism of your point of view. I'm not expecting to see you pull up a chair to a table but I am expecting you to realise that no matter how laid up you are, this idea (and VASSAL as well) may be the only way you might be able to fully participate in a real boardgame, so you can extract your own (figurative) foot at your own leisure. Now if you don't like boardgames, then what do you care? You can still have all the inept AI you want in the currently available computer titles, with more coming your way every day. No doubt about that, it's guarenteed. But when there is an option for a developer to spend more on the two player experience, making the game look better, more detailed rules and units, anti-cheat facilities etc then why not do it. Realise that this is less of an issue with simpler games which is easier to program the AI to give a reasonable chance but the more complex the game the harder it is. But the bottom line still applies. Programming takes time and time is money. I think that for some games that time is wasted because the outcome is sub-standard and detracts from the value of the game. It's all about time, money and quality of the gaming experience. Also you seem to be under some sort of delusion that you have to go out and buy games you don't want and therefore need to complain about them not having an AI and yet you have decided not to buy LnL. Just decide not to buy two player only games. Worse still you are complaining that LnL is not a computer game with an AI. Get a grip for a second. I'm asking that a computer game designer should consider enhancing the two player aspect of a good game design at the expense of the single player (Vs AI) mode. You on the other hand are asking that a game designer should change the medium of a game from board to computer and add an AI opponent. And you think that your opinion is right and mine is wrong?

PresbyterJohn -> RE: Absolutely superb AI (11/5/2004 11:14:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wodin quote: ORIGINAL: Prester John Actually no, I only want some good games. Games like ASL and World in Flames as I've already mentioned. Funny enough so would I. With an AI aswell. It can be done you know;) Just how many sheep stations do you want to bet that the AI for WiF is a complete lemon? At this time I'm willing to put BiN's AI on a top mark but it still falls for tricks and doesn't use tactics that it isn't programmed for. How good do you think a WiF or ASL AI will be, considering their much greater complexity

Adam Parker -> RE: Absolutely superb AI (11/5/2004 12:57:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Prester John What can I say, other than that you don't seem to understand the concept of playing a two player board game on the computer. You're saying that it won't work solitare. Who cares? The idea is not to play solitare but against other players... John you're all over the place in this thread. But I do understand the sole basis of your desire. You want all PC war games to only be playable by 2 humans. Well, you're 50 years behind the hobby old chap and well behind the needs of 21st century military educationalists. But let's stick to the hobby for a second. Right, take ASL. Roughly 60 geomorphic maps combinable in more configurations than I can count, to be able to track LOS between them, allow for variable force placement pre scenario and program 100 pages of double columned rules into code, also allowing for scenario designation of counters representing endless arrays of infantry and armor combinations; Ausf D/E, 4-3-6 MMC's depicting Volksgrenadier, Ostruppen, Penal Squads etc., on a whim. Hey, to programmers it's just 0's and 1's afterall? quote: ORIGINAL: Prester John Lastly, why do you need an AI as an umpire? John, war gaming has developed beyond the god's eye view, the all-knowing omnipotent command of the paper battlefield, where you can not only hold your opponent's OOB card but see the continuous, real time disposition of his forces. To continue with the ASL example, the whole concept of Concealment markers was to establish a quasi-AI where total control and awareness of forces was taken away from both players. The question you seem to be asking is why do you need an umpire to play a board war game? Because in the 21st century, war gaming without historically plausible fog is no longer the "gaming of war". Just pure 1950's fantasy. Those who truly live and breathe board gaming loudly accalim the command experience that only an umpired game can provide. It took Panzer Campaigns to shake me loose of my tunnel vision 5 years ago. Funnily enough, the military training establishment is now thinking my way too. Hence, though I sympathize with you and in no way condone poor AI's touted as anything other, you're going to find that your commercial desires have already fallen by the wayside as the retail gaming market becomes more and more driven by tailor-made military applications that will eventually spin off in titles such as HPS's Modern Airpower and Battlefront's Combat Command. Design houses such as Panther and SSG hopefully can garner some business from these military end users too. There'd rarely be a designer active today without one eye geared to military interest. And today's million dollar product goes by the name "AI". Adam.

PresbyterJohn -> RE: Absolutely superb AI (11/5/2004 1:57:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Adam Parker John you're all over the place in this thread. But I do understand the sole basis of your desire. You want all PC war games to only be playable by 2 humans. Well, you're 50 years behind the hobby old chap and well behind the needs of 21st century military educationalists. Well I don't know where you get the screwy ideas about wanting all games made this way. I'd be quite happy with two, ASL and WiF, or their gaming equivalents. You can do want you want with anything else you care to come up with. quote: But let's stick to the hobby for a second. Right, take ASL. Roughly 60 geomorphic maps combinable in more configurations than I can count, to be able to track LOS between them, allow for variable force placement pre scenario and program 100 pages of double columned rules into code, also allowing for scenario designation of counters representing endless arrays of infantry and armor combinations; Ausf D/E, 4-3-6 MMC's depicting Volksgrenadier, Ostruppen, Penal Squads etc., on a whim. Hey, to programmers it's just 0's and 1's afterall? And how much effort went into WitP? Of course one wouldn't expect the whole ASL game to appear at once. Lets be a little realistic. The basics of Beyond Valour and Yanks would be a good idea. No need to go crazy and do it all at once and try and sell it for $2000. That would be silly. quote: ORIGINAL: Adam Parker John, war gaming has developed beyond the god's eye view, the all-knowing omnipotent command of the paper battlefield, where you can not only hold your opponent's OOB card but see the continuous, real time disposition of his forces. To continue with the ASL example, the whole concept of Concealment markers was to establish a quasi-AI where total control and awareness of forces was taken away from both players. The question you seem to be asking is why do you need an umpire to play a board war game? Because in the 21st century, war gaming without historically plausible fog is no longer the "gaming of war". Just pure 1950's fantasy. Those who truly live and breathe board gaming loudly accalim the command experience that only an umpired game can provide. It took Panzer Campaigns to shake me loose of my tunnel vision 5 years ago. Funnily enough, the military training establishment is now thinking my way too. Hence, though I sympathize with you and in no way condone poor AI's touted as anything other, you're going to find that your commercial desires have already fallen by the wayside as the retail gaming market becomes more and more driven by tailor-made military applications that will eventually spin off in titles such as HPS's Modern Airpower and Battlefront's Combat Command. Design houses such as Panther and SSG hopefully can garner some business from these military end users too. There'd rarely be a designer active today without one eye geared to military interest. And today's million dollar product goes by the name "AI". Adam. Ummm, and why does the umpire have to be an AI? Why can't the game just show you the intel you have access to? Why does a game with a fog-of-war function need an AI? What I mean is that many computer games incorporate fog-of-war but have no role for an AI when played between two players. Now if you had said that billions of dollars were being spent by militaries to develop AI's that would assist their own forces on military operations I would believe you (because they are). But to say that AI's are being developed by those militaries just to game against, I don't believe you.

wodin -> RE: Absolutely superb AI (11/5/2004 2:11:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Prester John quote: ORIGINAL: wodin quote: ORIGINAL: Prester John Actually no, I only want some good games. Games like ASL and World in Flames as I've already mentioned. Funny enough so would I. With an AI aswell. It can be done you know;) Just how many sheep stations do you want to bet that the AI for WiF is a complete lemon? At this time I'm willing to put BiN's AI on a top mark but it still falls for tricks and doesn't use tactics that it isn't programmed for. How good do you think a WiF or ASL AI will be, considering their much greater complexity But you dont have to play against the AI do you? However its there for others who do. A conversion of ASL (with expansions over time)can be done no problem with todays PC power. It can have an AI aswell, you just wouldnt play against it, others would. I really dont believe you would get a better product if no AI was implimented into a game. It would just be finished quicker. And they would lose sales.

wodin -> RE: Absolutely superb AI (11/5/2004 2:16:43 PM)
HTTR as an example. Great game. Good AI. Couldnt have been a boardgame. Good example of using a computer to make a wargame which takes wargaming beyond the board and works. SO it can be done. Your WiF and ASL when made into a PC game will be no better as a game with an AI or without, the only difference is that they would lose sales without. If the game is true to the boardgame then it wouldnt matter a jot if it had or didnt have an AI from your point of view. If the developer has the best intensions for the game then it will be true and have an AI. IF they havent it will be crap either way, with or without. Take a look at CL. What they want to achieve is possible. They are taking their time to get it right. The game would either come out earlier with no AI, or later with. It wouldnt be any better game without an AI.

PresbyterJohn -> RE: Absolutely superb AI (11/5/2004 2:19:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wodin But you dont have to play against the AI do you? However its there for others who do. A conversion for ASL can be done no problem with todays PC power. It can have an AI aswell, you just wouldnt play against it, others would. I really dont believe you would get a better product if no AI was implimented into a game. It would just be finished quicker. And they would lose sales. AND it would not cost as much to produce! The cost savings could even be put into improving the two player game just to make it cheat proof (for example). Or just making the final product cheaper to buy.

PresbyterJohn -> RE: Absolutely superb AI (11/5/2004 2:23:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wodin HTTR as an example. Great game. Good AI. Couldnt have been a boardgame. Good example of using a computer to make a wargame which takes wargaming beyond the board and works. SO it can be done. Your WiF and ASL when made into a PC game will be no better as a game with an AI or without, the only difference is that they would lose sales without. If the game is true to the boardgame then it wouldnt matter a jot if it had or didnt have an AI from your point of view. If the developer has the best intensions for the game then it will be true and have an AI. IF they havent it will be crap either way, with or without. Take a look at CL. What they want to achieve is possible. They are taking their time to get it right. The game would either come out earlier with no AI, or later with. It wouldnt be any better game without an AI. Hello. If they don't spend time programming an AI it will be cheaper to produce. If only 5% of the customer base want an AI but they expand the customer base by 50% due to spending time on better game play or selling at a cheaper price then they win. Simple economics.

Adam Parker -> RE: Absolutely superb AI (11/5/2004 3:21:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Prester John But to say that AI's are being developed by those militaries just to game against, I don't believe you. "I currently have a contract with the Air Force to improve wargame AI..." - Source: 'Warfare HQ Talks with John Tiller Once Again' www.warfarehq.com No skin off my nose John [;)]

PresbyterJohn -> RE: Absolutely superb AI (11/5/2004 3:28:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Adam Parker quote: ORIGINAL: Prester John But to say that AI's are being developed by those militaries just to game against, I don't believe you. "I currently have a contract with the Air Force to improve wargame AI..." - Source: 'Warfare HQ Talks with John Tiller Once Again' www.warfarehq.com No skin off my nose John [;)] He's a lucky man if he's got a million dollar contract. But what has that got to do with why AI's are required for a game with fog-of-war? quote: Warfare HQ: In our last interview, we talked to you about how difficult it is to create a really competent AI opponent. Have there been any notable advances in this area since then? Where do you see AI going in the future? John: There has been only marginal improvement. I currently have a contract with the Air Force to improve wargame AI, but it is a two-year effort and will not reach completion even in that time frame. The task is just too hard to make much progress in the short term. I will do additional work, but the results will take some time to achieve. ..... Warfare HQ: Can you give us a glimpse of what you might have in store for the future? John: My work for the Air Force is producing some interesting results. There will be AI improvements coming, but gradually over time as the work produces results. The commercial game series will continue and new campaigns and battles will be addressed. I'm hopeful that the work I am doing for the government through small-business contracts will produce some interesting commercial spin-offs.

LewFisher -> RE: Absolutely superb AI (11/5/2004 4:38:48 PM)
Hi guys, New to this board, but not to wargaming. I have only just begun BIN but as in SSG's previous games, it seems well thought-out and with excellent A.I. I am not a programer but I understand the difficulty of programming wargames because of so many variables. Someone mentioned board games. I had played traditional wargames for over 30 years. I designed a few and wrote a number of articles for various publications. However, as the years went by, I became more a more disgruntled with the errata for most games. I finally just gave up. Besides, it is difficult to get two or three guys together to play a game out. With a computer game, that is not a problem. Companies like Matrix and HPS also back their products on a long term basis

PresbyterJohn -> RE: Absolutely superb AI (11/5/2004 4:58:54 PM)
Now there's something that I would like to see too. Updated electronic manuals/rulebooks. We have the BiN game rules in PDF but errata and updates are probably going to be far and few between. Dare I say, dump the AI and update the game manuals instead.

PJJ -> RE: Absolutely superb AI (11/5/2004 6:24:03 PM)
Well, if wargames didn't have AI, I wouldn't play them. I don't have anyone to play Hotseat games with me, and PBEM games are quite tedious to play. So I can't understand this "Jihad" against the AI. We're in the 21st century, and computer technology is developing rapidly. Why should the wargames be as simple as some ancient boardgames from the 1960's?

PresbyterJohn -> RE: Absolutely superb AI (11/5/2004 6:37:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PJJ Well, if wargames didn't have AI, I wouldn't play them. I don't have anyone to play Hotseat games with me, and PBEM games are quite tedious to play. So I can't understand this "Jihad" against the AI. We're in the 21st century, and computer technology is developing rapidly. Why should the wargames be as simple as some ancient boardgames from the 1960's? There's a Jihad? Serious? Gosh, and I thought it was only me wishing out loud. Who else is of the same mind? We can get together and send a couple of emails to a developer, maybe. Anyway where is this Jihad at?

wodin -> RE: Absolutely superb AI (11/5/2004 9:06:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Prester John Hello. If they don't spend time programming an AI it will be cheaper to produce. If only 5% of the customer base want an AI but they expand the customer base by 50% due to spending time on better game play or selling at a cheaper price then they win. Simple economics. As you can see though its not 5%. You will find that your in the minority not the other way around. I really believe that having an AI doesnt make a lesser product in anyway. You havent played the right games. Why not put up a poll on this forum and see how many want games without an AI? What do you say to all those who want to play WiF and an ASL conversion but need it with an AI? It just isnt fair.

ravinhood -> RE: Absolutely superb AI (11/5/2004 11:52:29 PM)
I would buy a Squad Leader or ASL board wargame to computer conversion WITH and AI in a New York second, but, would not buy one without it. I already have all the boards and stuff, why spend another $2000 getting the computer version without an AI? Oh that's right for convience, I keep forgetting that convience thingy. hehe

LewFisher -> RE: Absolutely superb AI (11/6/2004 12:20:35 AM)
The problem is economics. Even if A.I. is not included, computer wargames are for a very limited market. That's why BIN is $70.00 and WIE by Decision is about the same price. As others have said, ignore the A.I. and knock yourself out.[:D] Lew Fisher

PresbyterJohn -> RE: Absolutely superb AI (11/6/2004 1:45:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ravinhood I would buy a Squad Leader or ASL board wargame to computer conversion WITH and AI in a New York second, but, would not buy one without it. I already have all the boards and stuff, why spend another $2000 getting the computer version without an AI? Oh that's right for convience, I keep forgetting that convience thingy. hehe Would you buy the full game if the AI wasn't good enough to use fire lanes, or smoke and never went CE. There are AI opponents and there are AI opponents. If all they did was tack on the weakest of attempts of making an AI would that still count and therefore you would buy it? Or would you have some sort of standard? This is sort of a serious question because I'm wonderig if people have any sort of standards about how weak an AI can be and still call it an AI.

PresbyterJohn -> RE: Absolutely superb AI (11/6/2004 1:59:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LewFisher The problem is economics. Even if A.I. is not included, computer wargames are for a very limited market. That's why BIN is $70.00 and WIE by Decision is about the same price. As others have said, ignore the A.I. and knock yourself out.[:D] Lew Fisher I think there is a disconnection in logic here. The full game of BiN is $70 (whatever your local currency is) and the cost is related to the smallness of the buying market, but a proportion of that cost must be to cover the design and programming of the AI. Even if it was only 10% of the total workload (and I think I'm underestimating it a fair bit) then reducing the price by 10% is an option. Of course if you are going to lose more than 10% of your sales accordingly then it is a bad decision. However if the AI is 50% of the production cost but you are only going to lose 30% of sales then the figures become clearly in favour of dropping the AI. Of course since I'm the only one who has so far voiced an opinion in favour of it I doubt that the numbers are anywhere in favour of it. Now supposedly there is a Jihad going on somewhere and if I can find it maybe we can threaten to send suicide e-mails unless somebody makes an AI-less game. But the point is that if the numbers were in favour simple economics wouild mean that we would have a few AI-less games available. Nobody is going to do 50% more work on a project for 20% more profit unless they are a charity.

PresbyterJohn -> RE: Absolutely superb AI (11/6/2004 2:15:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wodin quote: ORIGINAL: Prester John Hello. If they don't spend time programming an AI it will be cheaper to produce. If only 5% of the customer base want an AI but they expand the customer base by 50% due to spending time on better game play or selling at a cheaper price then they win. Simple economics. As you can see though its not 5%. You will find that your in the minority not the other way around. You havent played the right games. Why not put up a poll on this forum and see how many want games without an AI? What do you say to all those who want to play WiF and an ASL conversion but need it with an AI? It just isnt fair. No, on the contrary what do you say to the people who have a choice of ASL without the AI, or no game at all because the cost of making an effective AI is prohibitively high? Now that quite simply isn't fair, holding everybody else hostage over a game just because you insist it must have AI to be sold. And of course I haven't played the right games because I haven't found any games which are AI-less and cheaper than their AI'ed counterparts. And I have never said that I'm in any sort of majority, I've just said what I want. Now about this statement of yours: "I really believe that having an AI doesnt make a lesser product in anyway." The question is not about the game being a lesser product as long as you are not paying for an AI that can put up a fight. If you are paying full price on the basis of the AI able to challenge the average player and win 50% of the time, but you are able to win 100% of the time against the AI then you have been ripped off. You have been given a lesser product than what you were paying for. So you need to rearrange your belief structures.

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