RE: Comments on the 8.3 Patch (Full Version)

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Kristo Vaher -> RE: Comments on the 8.3 Patch (10/21/2004 8:39:59 PM)

Damn, robot, this is the silliest post Ive read by you yet... Im not going even to try and rewrite what Ive already said again, since you clearly have no idea what Im talking about. However, it doesnt matter. SP WaW is a great product, and Generals Edition IS ON THE PAY FOR THE GAME cd. Let me quote: "Steel Panthers: World at War "Generals Edition" offers you SP:WAW v8.2 together with all 4 Megacampaigns on one disc." If they charge money for that, they charge money for SP WaW. This is what Ive got on my desktop on this very minute. Now, that product disc is copyrighted, and I cannot use the whoel of it, or parts, separately, copying, or any of that sorts. Its copyrighted. Even though its the "same" engine available free, it isnt non-paid-for.

As a quote: "This is an incremental update and requires v8.2 to be installed first. This update is for both the free version of Steel Panthers: World At War as well as the Steel Panthers: General's Edition compilation." says that there are indeed "two" versions of SP WaW. One non-paid, another paid, not holding MegaCampaigns different, but as part of the product.

But I DONT CARE anymore. I got the patch through other means. Matrix Games bs publishing and marketing and support decisions have no effect on gameplay or product happiness any more. Even if the free product was developed freely, it does not mean that Matrix Games, the license owner, can screw the support up more than they would on non-free products. Not top mention that they DO charge money for Generals Edition.

Whatever, have fun in your false dreams. I do know that some of you live in those dreams, in awe towards MG.

Goodbye. May you live happily ever after.



Don Doom -> RE: Comments on the 8.3 Patch (10/22/2004 12:13:57 PM)

I am just curious as to why everyone has to keep reg for this or that when it use to be out in the open and free??[&:]

Robot: get rid of the matrix knee pads!



robot -> RE: Comments on the 8.3 Patch (10/22/2004 4:06:19 PM)

That is false about you payin for SPWAW because its on the general edition disk. It is free and thats all there is too it. You paid what i said you paid for the Mega campaigns. You gave nothing for SPWAW. You can rationalize in your own mind how ever you want too.

And if you ever met me in person you would know i dont kow tow or kiss any mans boots. I have never ever in my whole life kissed up to any person. This is the first time i have ever even made a post that came close to sounding like a bitch about any of the posts here.

For some reason i just got tired of some one bitching about a simple process that takes a small amount of time from your life. And this is for something that some one has given them for free to start with. This world has gone to pot since so much free stuff has been handed out. And even then the recipients of this free stuff are not satisfied. They hate the stuff because they have to expend an effort to get it.



Hexed Gamer -> RE: Comments on the 8.3 Patch (10/22/2004 5:04:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kristo Vaher Goodbye. May you live happily ever after.



Hexed Gamer -> RE: Comments on the 8.3 Patch (10/22/2004 5:04:45 PM)

Wasting your time Robot, some people can't indentify trees even after you dump a forest on their heads :)

Let him think he paid for SPWaW if it floats his boat. You me and thousands of others already know and have known for years, that SSI (who ever they actually are these days) owns the game, does not allow it to be sold, requires all and any patch or version (including the SP Camo versions and patches eh) to be made entirely free.

Each download of the game this twirp and any other more appreciative person has downloaded has COST MATRIX GAMES money for use of the bandwidth to get said download.



Hmm lets see, what are todays stats of the moment.

13661 Registered users have made 678243 posts in 114 forums. There are currently 93500 topics.
Please welcome our newest member: John Woods
The latest post was made by Bobthehatchit on 10/22/2004 2:52:08 PM
You can click here to see Today's Posts | Most Active Topics | Posts Since Last Visit

Anyone here actually believe we actually DO have 13661 members in reality though?
We have that many accounts in the data base of course.
I wonder how many accounts are in the new members data base, now that number would tell staff something.
Personally, I think that is about enough reason to have done what they did if for no other reason eh. Tells David a lot more than the 13661 statistic eh.

Hey Kristo Vaher I routinely send out a cd in the mail to interested persons that contact me. It has the whole friggin lot, every permutation of Steel Panthers (no Mega Campaign software of course other than the free patches) including the SP Camo variants and other goodies like H2H from Panzer Leo.
And the interested party gets to send me 5 bucks FIRST to cover my postage costs (because I ain't rich). And guess what, you AIN'T paying for the game, not a penny.

You might have seen Steelers charitable offer notion as well. Send some bucks to a charity, et mailed a cd with the basic game. That charitable offer is just his way of telling you to do a kindness for a kindness eh. You AIN'T buying squat when you make the donation either.

You may or may not like some of the operations decisions at Matrix Games, but gfact remains, David has given OUT a ****load more than he has taken IN in the last 4 years if you ask me (where Steel Panthers WaW is concerned). It would be nice to hear he has gotten beyond breaking even with all this, but it would also surprise me to hear he has.



Hexed Gamer -> RE: Comments on the 8.3 Patch (10/22/2004 5:05:21 PM)

Hope you enjoy "buying" your next game Kristo, where ever that may be :)



Don Doom -> RE: Comments on the 8.3 Patch (10/23/2004 3:17:00 AM)

Gentlemen, SPWAW is not "FREE" for those that have dial-up or no access to DSL or Cable. Depending where you are in the world it can cost up to between 25.00 to 40.00 US dollors, even for a small patch! This cost is cancelled for a very SMALL group of players by people who will cut a cd if asked! But some people are unable to ask or too proud to ask for a hand out. So no spwaw is not "FREE" no mater what matrix say's.



Hexed Gamer -> RE: Comments on the 8.3 Patch (10/23/2004 3:44:20 AM)

I once had dial up, god it sucked. The rates were marginal, but so was the thrill value.

To download SPWaW that first time, the phone was defacto "not available" for a solid 2.75 days eh.
But the file transfer didn't actually cost me "more" per se, it just took a good deal longer and a good deal more waiting and the use of something like Getright was essential.

Now I might have just left the download to download during the night when I was in no need of the phone I suppose. But that would have meant a week waiting... yuck.

Today a download of 500 megs is really nothing worth comment. I can download several gigs of data each day every day for whatever puny whim I wish.
Ain't free of course I am paying 45 bucks a month to be able to download all the time at incredible speed. If I had nothing meriting download, you can bet the DSL would get suspended as not being worth the cost.
But there is no attached cost beyond the fact I pay for unlimited download badwidth.

I think (I say think because I don't know), there might be places countries where a person is charged differently, but that sure wouldn't fly here in Ontario Canada. The service would go belly up in a day.

The cost of a cd though, and postage to any corner of the planet is truely puny. I spend more on a bag of Doritos. I have no way of understanding why a person punishes themselves so (not asking for aid). It's unfathomable.

I can only say to those that won't help themselves, you have only yourselves to blame really.



Frank W. -> RE: Comments on the 8.3 Patch (10/23/2004 5:51:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kristo Vaher

But could you tell me why why w h y w h y WHY WHY WHY W H Y W H Y WHY THE HELL!?


[sm=00000924.gif]

i donīt need the patch, still playing olī 7.1 + H2H.

no patch, no cry [;)]



Frank W. -> RE: Comments on the 8.3 Patch (10/23/2004 6:14:06 PM)

let me add, that i find much of robots and esp. lesī posts irrelevant.

the issue is "why you need to register to d/l a patch" ?

i havenīt heard an explanation for this yet.

also i might notice at paradox or hps you donīt need
to register to d/l patches....


but the q is:

do we need this patch really ?

my answer is no.

a patch cannot change the remaining bugs in the
game engine due to the exe cannot be changed.

so issues like

- 30 smoke shots in 1 turn
- magically spinning stugs and SUīs
- the dumb AI
- pbm save files got corrupted

and others

wonīt be changed....

i was quite satysfied with the H2H OOB for 7.1.
okay still there are much things that could be changed
but i think the effort doesnīt justify the results.

i still honour the ppl. that made possible more patches
and oob changes after 7.1, even if i donīt need them till
now.



Hexed Gamer -> RE: Comments on the 8.3 Patch (10/23/2004 7:29:19 PM)

In spite of Franks remarks :)

He has said something that a lot just don't seem to want to accept.

If you don't like 8.3 or 8.2 or 8.1 or 7.1 or 7.0 (get the idea), don't use them.

In a lot of cases, a lot of the changes were often based a lot on opinion.

To me, normally a patch is something you release when the game is broke and won't actually run. A lot of our headaches stem from incessant fiddling.

8.3 is now here, and still we have people wanting something fixed.

I just hope David meant it when he said it was done. It would do the designers a big favour if they could go forth to create,m and not wonder if in a month all their work was pointless.

Guy I pity the most would be Panzer Leo actually.
He has a great mod, and I bet he thought he would not have to worry about redoing stuff after version 7.



rich12545 -> RE: Comments on the 8.3 Patch (10/24/2004 3:45:52 AM)

Wow. Came to this thread to see what people thought about the new oobs in 8.3. Was I fooled.

I can see both sides. I registered and got the patch with no problem. Didn't occur to me that it was an imposition to register twice. And I had already given the company my email address.

Now I can understand, the point is WHY?

And it doesn't matter if the game is free. If you pay for the megas, the game is required. The patch is a good idea even for the megas. So in a sense you're getting a patch for a freebie that is REQUIRED to play the game you paid for. So I can understand why it might upset some to register and give an email address for a patch that is needed to properly play a game that they paid for.



Hexed Gamer -> RE: Comments on the 8.3 Patch (10/24/2004 4:26:49 AM)

It's just an email address.

If you actually have to worry about how you use said email address, then perhaps you need to rethink why you used that email address and not something convenient like a disposable one.



#Vassago -> RE: Comments on the 8.3 Patch (10/24/2004 4:56:13 AM)

I am totally flabbergasted to see people complaining about having to give...an email...to download a patch... [sm=dizzy.gif]

Boy I wish I had that kind of time to spare and that I had only this kind of "problem" in my life....

growup kids...it not like they are asking for your soul or anything....[8|] sheesh...



KG Erwin -> RE: Comments on the 8.3 Patch (10/24/2004 6:16:48 AM)

Frank W, you have missed much in the improvements we made from 7.1 to the final 8.3. The bugs you mentioned have subsequently been fixed. I can now enjoy myself in campaigns vs the poor dumb AI, in that the AI's default force selections for many nations have been tweaked and are now better balanced. The downside--the Germans are still screwed up, for one simple reason--the AI cannot handle mounted infantry formations, period. The AI-controlled infantry will be on foot. That's just the way it is.

Now, if you want to go Pacific, it's much much better now. These were easier to tweak without the benefit of mech.exe changes. Btw, 8.2 DID offer a new mech.exe. For hard-core armor enthusiasts, we adjusted many formations and units. Frank, you're selling yourself short if you don't get the complete 8.2 and the 8.3 upgrade. We adjusted off-board arty loadouts, and changed prices for the heavy arty.

We've received some complaints about our rarity settings and restricting players to historical units/formations, but this is what the game is supposed to represent. We did allow for fantasy units, but they are offered as optional units with availability beginning in Dec 1949. Using the in-game OOB editor, you can alter any data parameter you wish. This is how the various OOB teams did it, and I used the knowledge to further alter certain OOBs for my personal use.

The game itself is open-ended. Matrix and the OOB Team offered what we believe to be the best database we could offer. Mistakes undoubtedly crept in, despite our best efforts, so you guys can correct them on your own. You have the tools, so feel free to use them.



robot -> RE: Comments on the 8.3 Patch (10/24/2004 4:33:18 PM)

The really great thing is if you feel the patch is an imposition on you and you hate the idea about registering a second time. Then dont do it you do not need the patch to play this game. Hell you didnt even need all the upgrades over the years to play this game. There are lots of people still playing with 7.1 and i am one of them. I have 2 installs 7.1 and 8.3 oh and also HH. I did not need to get the patch to play i just wanted to see what they added was all.

I personally dont see anything that the 8.3 changed. But then i dont look for all the goodies or changes. I just play the game and have a great time doing it. It is one of the longest playing games i have stayed with over the years. And believe me i have spent a hell of a lot of money on worthless games over the years. Some i never had on my comp for longer then a month and they went into the garbage. Lets say i spent 35 dollers for three games that has went into the garbage a long time ago. And some of them cost more then 35.00 but just use that as a base. Now i spend 100 dollers on the general edition knowing i am going to get say ten more years of excellent game time. Thats because i have already gotten at least 6 years of great playing time. Where am i out at for having to regester one more time. Jeez guys lets put this into perspective.



Frank W. -> RE: Comments on the 8.3 Patch (10/24/2004 7:44:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

Frank W, you have missed much in the improvements we made from 7.1 to the final 8.3.........


thanx, perhaps i will try it out !

[;)]



the_redstar_swl -> RE: Comments on the 8.3 Patch (10/28/2004 10:56:01 AM)

yay! guards counterattack is back! also the german inf guns sound nicer too.

PS. whats H2H?



Cross -> RE: What's H2H (10/30/2004 12:28:56 AM)

H2H (Head to Head) is a mod. (modification) of SPWAW. It was originally privately done by Panzer Leo.

It is - in most opinions - an improvement on SPWAW. I believe Panzer Leo has been hired by Matrix now.

Check out this site for more info:

http://www.theblitz.org/member_sites/panzer_leo_spw@w/spwaw_h2h_modrework.php

I also recommend you join The Blitz wargaming club too (where the site is located) if you are not already a member.

hope this helps.
Cheers,
Cross

ps. To save you future confusion, there is a third version of SP called SPww2. This version is not a Matrix product though. So there is SPWAW, SPH2H and SPww2, three very similar but different games. And there is SP MBT.



KG Erwin -> RE: What's H2H (10/30/2004 6:32:03 AM)

H2H is an interesting variation on SPWaW 7.1. I have adapted some of Panzer Leo's pics and sound files for my version of 8.3. Matrix' 8.3 is the definitive OOB version, but I've tweaked my version and incorporated some of the best (to date) alternative ideas presented by independent designers. Since I exclusively play vs the AI, I can customize the OOBs to suit my historical whims. This is one of the features I love about SPWaW.



Cross -> RE: What's H2H (10/30/2004 5:23:54 PM)

KG,

V8.3 sounds interesting, I can't wait to download it. But have to finish a PBEM battle, I am in the middle of, first. I look forward to the new OOBs in particular, the WAW OOBs did need some work.

quote:

Since I exclusively play vs the AI,


May I ask why? I feel bad for you. Once I played by e-mail, I could never go back to the AI opponent, except to practice or fool around, it's just not as captivating.

regards,
Cross



KG Erwin -> RE: What's H2H (10/31/2004 3:23:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cross

KG,

V8.3 sounds interesting, I can't wait to download it. But have to finish a PBEM battle, I am in the middle of, first. I look forward to the new OOBs in particular, the WAW OOBs did need some work.

quote:

Since I exclusively play vs the AI,


Simple answer--I belong to several online forums, not all related to wargaming, and my "play-time" is really limited. My obsession with a competent AI opponent goes back a long way. There has been much research done in the last few years, but it doesn't necessarily have commercial game applications. A legendary attempt at AI interaction was with the "Road to Moscow" project. This ambitious wargame project really deserves to have a book written about it.
May I ask why? I feel bad for you. Once I played by e-mail, I could never go back to the AI opponent, except to practice or fool around, it's just not as captivating.

regards,
Cross



Goblin -> RE: What's H2H (10/31/2004 3:49:02 AM)

It actually takes less time to play PBEM. Quick ten minute turn, mail it and forget about it until the next day. More fun, less time.


Goblin



Cross -> RE: What's H2H (10/31/2004 2:48:46 PM)

I must say I have to agree with Goblin. I have 4 children and other responsibilities; so just don't have time to play many games myself, especially some of those addictive on-line games.[:D]

But PBEM forces you to only play a limited time each day; or some players prefer to only play a couple of times a week . As long as you don't start playing multiple opponents. [;)]
regards,
Cross



Goblin -> RE: What's H2H (10/31/2004 3:54:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cross

As long as you don't start playing multiple opponents. [;)]


Lol, that is one danger![:D]


Goblin



BryanMelvin -> RE: What's H2H (10/31/2004 6:15:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

H2H is an interesting variation on SPWaW 7.1. I have adapted some of Panzer Leo's pics and sound files for my version of 8.3. Matrix' 8.3 is the definitive OOB version, but I've tweaked my version and incorporated some of the best (to date) alternative ideas presented by independent designers. Since I exclusively play vs the AI, I can customize the OOBs to suit my historical whims. This is one of the features I love about SPWaW.



This was the purpose of 8.3 - give gamers the opportunity to fashion there own personal oobs and to move the game forward where ever it will lead [:D]

The 8.3 oobs are a base one can work off of. You can now, using the spwaw game editor, identify what formations the AI will pick and improve these to ones heart's content or let the game play as it is. You can adjust oobs and swap these with others.

8.3 will be Matrixsgames last version and it is gift to you, to do with as you please. You can leave 8.3 as it is or try your own hand at imptoving it.

8.3 will remain the official version but your own versions can spin off these and give longer life to a great game.

This was to be a gift to you all and we at matrixgames leave the game in your hands[;)]



minefield -> RE: What's H2H (11/3/2004 11:11:50 PM)

I am throwing my two cents in here so don't get upset over my words; for truly anyone's words up here really shouldn't be worth your emotions.

In response to the infantry changing colors as they are injured, this is a carry over bug from earlier versions. I did not look into it personally but it was explained to me as a sprite (definition: small graphic) problem. Basically the game just points to the wrong file for injured infantry so the colors magically change when the squad is injured enough. I imagine this could be fixed with a little detective work.

In response to the cumbersome patch distribution, I can see both sides. In this day of viruses by email, spam, and other such nonsense, people have a rational reluctance to release their email address into the open domain. As mentioned, a good fix for this is to use a disposable email account (some services even offer such special accounts). However this does not explain why Matrix decided to switch over to putting the patches in a protected area as opposed to using True Update, which has been their policy in the past. I imagine the answer is simpler than we think and Matrix has just made some company policy of storing all their product's patches (or the new ones or something) in this new area and SP:WAW just happened to get effected by the new policy as opposed to Matrix singling out SP:WAW. This would just lead me to ask if Matrix has any objections to its gamers redistributing this patch on their own websites. This would save a lot of headaches.

As far as the game being free or not, this is a silly argument. As someone was beginning to explain with dial-up costs, etc. (which is a very real and tangible expense for those forced to use net cafe's in Europe), obtaining the game is not free of cost. But this argument actually holds for anything in that you can argue that you have to pay for the calories spent in your body. Looking at the grass grow is not free; watching birds fly is not free. What really is the point is rather or not the game itself is being charged for (over and beyond incidental expenses in obtaining it). I would say the game is free as many others would say it is. The only confusing part is that Matrix is bundling the game with Mega Campaigns and charging for the resulting package. Of course if you were to argue Matrix Games was breaking the tradition / agreement of a free SP:WAW then they could just remove it from the package and force you to download it. So don't argue that point too hard.

The next point is my own and a troubling one. The patch isn't friendly with other copies of the game. If you have more than one copy of 8.2 installed and you just want to update one of them, there isn't any way to protect the original copy. It will display 8.3 regardless of what attempts you take to protect it (for PBEM'ing purposes of course). The extent of this change (besides the version stamp) is unknown to me. Hopefully I will get a PBEM opponent soon and I will see if 8.2 still works even though it is now branded 8.3.

As far as the actual point of this thread, the opinions regarding the OOB and other game play changes, I have been too caught up with trying to save 8.2 on my computer to actually play around with it yet (just got back to SP:WAW after a break). Will come back after some experience (and hopefully some PBEM's!).



KG Erwin -> RE: Comments on the 8.3 Patch (11/10/2004 7:52:32 PM)

Here's an OOB editing goof I found--USMC units 113 & 114, (the D & E squads with shotguns in slot 3) have wrong ammo loadouts. It should be 30 rnds HE, not 18. Sorry, guys--this one slipped by me. [:o]



minefield -> RE: Comments on the 8.3 Patch (11/12/2004 2:18:21 AM)

The last entry in the German (iirc) encyclopedia mentions that a crew member is an upgraded Pz IV or something like that in the text description :)



KG Erwin -> RE: Comments on the 8.3 Patch (11/13/2004 1:25:47 AM)

Minefield, any adjustments to the OOBs will have to be done by the players. Matrix will NOT be offering any more patches. Now, if everyone is paying attention, then you can fix the previous USMC glitch I mentioned. This can be regarded as official, but you gotta do it yourself with the in-game OOB Editor .



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