RE: Pros and cons of this game ? (Full Version)

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Cav Trooper -> RE: Pros and cons of this game ? (10/24/2004 4:22:17 AM)

Ah, Ron couldn't find that in the manual... [:)], but then again, next patch is supposed to fix bugs so bye bye bugs....[:D]



demonterico -> RE: Pros and cons of this game ? (10/24/2004 4:57:59 AM)

Hey Frank When you have pizza you don't need other food. But you do need beer.



tsimmonds -> RE: Pros and cons of this game ? (10/24/2004 6:44:19 AM)

quote:

Needs an entire stable of house rules at the moment if ya want a real grognard experience though.


Yeah you do; do you think that will ever change? I don't.



tigercub -> RE: Pros and cons of this game ? (10/24/2004 11:38:04 AM)

it may well be the best wargame ever made when it is FINNISH!!!!! still waiting ta play past 17.1.41 when ver1.3 comes out!

that is the good and the bad for me.



Ron Saueracker -> RE: Pros and cons of this game ? (10/24/2004 11:43:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: demonterico

Hey Frank When you have pizza you don't need other food. But you do need beer.


And lots of bum wad, mountain money... whatever ones calls toilet tissue!



Frank W. -> RE: Pros and cons of this game ? (10/24/2004 6:07:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tigercub

it may well be the best wargame ever made when it is FINNISH!!!!! still waiting ta play past 17.1.41 when ver1.3 comes out!

that is the good and the bad for me.


whatīs the problem with that date ?



dtravel -> RE: Pros and cons of this game ? (10/25/2004 12:54:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Frank W.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tigercub

it may well be the best wargame ever made when it is FINNISH!!!!! still waiting ta play past 17.1.41 when ver1.3 comes out!

that is the good and the bad for me.


whatīs the problem with that date ?


I think the problem is that it is eleven months before the game begins. [:)]



eMonticello -> RE: convoi system in game ? (10/25/2004 7:15:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Frank W.

how is the convoi and supply system handled in this game ?

i noticed in HOI there are some shortcomings:

a) you canīt select exact routes ( the comp choses the seazones the
convo goes through - which means you cannot try to avoid zones where
you expect much enemy activity )

b) convois canīt be attacked with air

c) even unescorted convois cause org and str losses
to attacking fleets ( this can be very serious for example
if you have some heavy ships like BB and CA attacking unescorted
convois that also collect damage. this shall simulate failures
of ship systems and munition usage. also some transports are
meant to be armed - but of course the small guns can not harm
heavy ships shooting from the distance. perhaps they can do
damage to small combatans and surfaced subs )

d ) is much micromanagemant needed to manage the convois and supplies ??


a) Since WITP is hex-based, there's not a problem selecting a route of your choosing.

b) Convoys can be attacked by aircraft.

c) Warships only sustain damage if hit with gunfire from either the escort or merchant ships with guns. However, contact between warships and convoys does not mean all the merchant ships are destroyed. It's possible that some ships will leave unscathed or only slightly damaged.

d) WITP uses a simple economic model. Raw materials (oil and resources) are created on a daily basis and must be transferred to a city with Heavy Industry (HI). The HI converts this material into supplies, fuel, and equipment (planes, tanks, etc.) which, in turn, must be transported to your troops to use. Since the US and India are well stocked with both raw material and processed goods (fuel and supplies), logistics for the Allies is much easier than logistics for Japan. The Japanese must transport the raw material in convoys to Japan before sending it back to the combat area.

Convoys can be created using "auto-convoy" or created manually. Most folks manually manage their convoys; for instance, as Allies, I create a convoy (30-40 ships with 4-6 destroyer escorts) bound from the US to Oz just once a month. Smaller convoys are sent to the surrounding islands around the time that the large convoy arrives at Oz. The number of ships and escorts for these convoys depends on the destination base size. I use a check-list and house rules to manage the logistics for both supplies/fuel and troops. Generally, I only deal with supply logistics twice a month.

Troop logistics, on the other hand, require a real plan, since I don't like to move troops from the US until I decide on their mission. No sense in consuming supplies in the combat zone needlessly.



rlc27 -> RE: Pros and cons of this game ? (10/25/2004 9:13:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tigercub

it may well be the best wargame ever made when it is FINNISH!!!!!


Now nationalism shouldn't be brought into this. Scandanavian or not, it's a fine game.[:-]
[;)]



fbastos -> RE: Pros and cons of this game ? (10/26/2004 4:16:17 AM)

quote:




quote:

ORIGINAL: tigercub

it may well be the best wargame ever made when it is FINNISH!!!!!


Now nationalism shouldn't be brought into this. Scandanavian or not, it's a fine game.


hahaha.. good one.

F.



ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Pros and cons of this game ? (10/26/2004 6:02:47 AM)

Positve: Depth and Detail

Negative: Depth and Detail



ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Pros and cons of this game ? (10/26/2004 6:09:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

patch is done!!! just notreleased as there is a manpoweer shortage and files need to be setup see Joel's post..
I came into the fold because after terrible support experiences with so many buggy products Matrix and 2x3 did like 5 patches for Uncommon valor.. they will notrest until it is right.. ten years of support? more ..
no worries from me!!!!!!!!!!!


Heard there was another short notice trade show the enitre staff simply MUST attend.


New patch release, Dec 15....but there's one more trade show on that date.....



ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Pros and cons of this game ? (10/26/2004 6:11:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

I agree with most here, the game is great even with some of the almost show stopping bugs. As for HOI, I think its a joke. I played if for about 6 months and wrote it off.

I think Witp will be played and played for many years to come. I don't know if ill see another like it in my life time.[:D]


Kind of my take, as well. It's nothing more than an old DOS game on steriods, but those were the best games ever written, so no surprise this one is great, too. And I still don't view these bugs as the near show stoppers some do. My PBEM and hotseat opponent and I are chugging right along, bugs and all and still having a whale of a time.



strawbuk -> RE: convoi system in game ? (10/26/2004 6:17:19 PM)

quote:

WITP uses a simple economic model


You might just want to qualify that a bit - simple model needs, careful thought to maxmise as Japanese.



2Stepper -> RE: Pros and cons of this game ? (10/26/2004 8:15:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hartley

"takes a long time play" is a pro, not a con.


Really? Gee, and here I thought it was both after all this time! LOL!! [:D]

Seriously though, this game is very addicting once you take the time out to sink yourself into the Pac War. It'll hold you to the point of not wanting to let go.

Oddly enough, that's kinda a pro AND con too. LOL!!

Suffice to say that in terms of war games/simulations WiTP is a gem among the rest... [8D]



Cav Trooper -> RE: Pros and cons of this game ? (10/27/2004 12:45:21 AM)

quote:

Suffice to say that in terms of war games/simulations WiTP is a gem among the rest...


Oh, you mean like a Diamond in the rough????[:'(]



invernomuto -> RE: convoi system in game ? (10/27/2004 2:03:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Frank W.

i noticed in HOI there are some shortcomings:

a) you canīt select exact routes ( the comp choses the seazones the
convo goes through - which means you cannot try to avoid zones where
you expect much enemy activity )


You could select the route you wish for convois in WITP, since each ship in the convoy is modelled (In HOI convoy ship aren't represented on map).

quote:


b) convois canīt be attacked with air


In WITP expect LOTS of air attacks agains your transport ships [:D]

quote:


c) even unescorted convois cause org and str losses
to attacking fleets ( this can be very serious for example
if you have some heavy ships like BB and CA attacking unescorted
convois that also collect damage. this shall simulate failures
of ship systems and munition usage. also some transports are
meant to be armed - but of course the small guns can not harm
heavy ships shooting from the distance. perhaps they can do
damage to small combatans and surfaced subs )


I really didn't like HOI's combat system (naval one is really silly). Having only two attributes (strenght and organization) causes lots of unrealistic behavior. WITP's naval (and air) combat system is really far more accurate...

quote:


d ) is much micromanagemant needed to manage the convois and supplies ??

Compared to HOI, YES! , but you can automate some tasks.

However, you cannot compare HOI with WITP, they are really two different kind of games. WITP is really deeper than HOI (but also much more difficult). The elements that HOI really lacks (air and naval ops) are the main features of WITP. The only thing I miss from HOI is graphics.
I like HOI, but I am really addicted to WITP. Great game [&o]



Tophat -> RE: convoi system in game ? (10/27/2004 6:00:43 AM)

Yes its very addictive.....so much so infact that the surgeon general of the U.S is considering a warning label on the box.



eMonticello -> RE: convoi system in game ? (10/27/2004 6:02:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: strawbuk

quote:

WITP uses a simple economic model


You might just want to qualify that a bit - simple model needs, careful thought to maxmise as Japanese.


True. However, I haven't played as the Japanese so I haven't evaluated the usefulness of tweaking the model yet (changing the number of factories/shipyards, etc.). Is there only one "best" optimization or can there be several "best" optimizations which depends on your strategic objective? Since it would require a day or two to analyze the equations and build a spreadsheet model to identify the optimum model, I haven't bothered with the Japanese yet.



Reiryc -> RE: convoi system in game ? (10/27/2004 7:50:21 PM)

Pros: Owning it.

Cons: Not owning it.


That about sums it up....



Frank W. -> RE: convoi system in game ? (10/29/2004 11:51:38 PM)

quote:


However, you cannot compare HOI with WITP, they are really two different kind of games. WITP is really deeper than HOI (but also much more difficult). The elements that HOI really lacks (air and naval ops) are the main features of WITP. The only thing I miss from HOI is graphics.
I like HOI, but I am really addicted to WITP. Great game [&o]


grmpff.. iīm quite fed up with HOI again, seeing the AI stack about 100 (!!) german and italian divs on the greek border and they do NOTHING...for monthīs...just sit there...eating gyros, drinking greek whine...who knows [>:]
guess itīs related to a bug that the AI very seldom attacks fortified provs, even if the odds are 10:1. greek army had only about 10 divs in the prov and much worse tech than the germans of course [8|]

if such bugs or "features" donīt happen in WITP i will try it for shure ( but will wait, till it will get cheaper, since iīm coming from poor germany [:(])



Frank W. -> RE: convoi system in game ? (10/29/2004 11:55:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: eMonticello

quote:

ORIGINAL: strawbuk

quote:

WITP uses a simple economic model


You might just want to qualify that a bit - simple model needs, careful thought to maxmise as Japanese.


True. However, I haven't played as the Japanese so I haven't evaluated the usefulness of tweaking the model yet (changing the number of factories/shipyards, etc.). Is there only one "best" optimization or can there be several "best" optimizations which depends on your strategic objective? Since it would require a day or two to analyze the equations and build a spreadsheet model to identify the optimum model, I haven't bothered with the Japanese yet.


i guess itīs similar to the production model in WIR or 12 oīclock high cause these games were also quite big and g. grigsby was involved in them [:'(]



Point Luck -> RE: convoi system in game ? (10/30/2004 1:23:13 AM)

Con waiting for the patch



Banquet -> RE: convoi system in game ? (10/30/2004 2:02:25 AM)

I love HoI. Up until the release of WitP it was my favourite wargame. Infact it was my favourite game, period. There are aspects that are similar, but these are mostly in scale and scope. The two games feel completely different to play.

In my opinion the advantages of HoI over WitP are;

It's 'lighter', easier to pick up for a quick play session.

It covers the whole globe with details down to division/squadron level, with orders possible on an hourly level, yet remains accessible and playable.

A vast host of playable countries.

Constantly updated with new patches/user mods to give a new experience when you play

Confounding A.I. Although something odd (in a bad way) happens in every game, it still manages to challenge me, and catch me offguard at times.

Possible to play a significant period of the war in one play session.

Handles land combat well, given the constraints of scale.

The advantages of WitP over HoI are;

Huge amount of stats and unit types that you can pour over.

More realistic. Air, land and sea combat much more detailed.. based on real, historical info.

Air and sea combat especially, far more engrossing (Carriers aren't worth the effort in HoI)

Better graphics (I prefer them in WitP - maybe I spent too long staring at the HoI screens)

Longer game, more to get your teeth into, it's amazing to think of the game ahead of you. The moment you're in feels so small, but still significant.

More personal, with individual pilots/squads/guns listed

Supply. Potentially boring, but immensely important in WitP. It can provide some really tense moments and, more importantly, needs to be planned.. and we all know planning something is usually more fun that the event itself. WitP is full of 'planning' moments. It nags you while you're trying to sleep, it consumes you at work.. It's all in the details, and they beckon you to play in WitP. It's an Armchair general's dream.


I would say that to love WitP you have to love the details. Mostly I do, but sometimes I can't be arsed. On those nights I play HoI and have a great time :)

I've been playing HoI tonight, while waiting for news on the 1.3 patch. It's been great fun, but I couldn't help thinking, as America entered the war, and began mixing it with the Japanese in the Pacific, that I'd far rather be playing WitP. Yet when blockading Italian ports in the med, and fighting the germans in Greece, well, HoI is still the only game in town.

Lucky that I have room for both on HD [:)]



Tankerace -> RE: convoi system in game ? (10/30/2004 2:07:58 AM)

Banquet, I ssecond your thoughts on witp and hoi wholeheartedly. Both are my favorite wargames.



Titanwarrior89 -> RE: convoi system in game ? (10/30/2004 6:20:07 AM)

double Con- patch waiting - I agree![:D]
quote:

ORIGINAL: Point Luck

Con waiting for the patch



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