Oil, Heavy Industry and Auto Convoy (Full Version)

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DJAndrews -> Oil, Heavy Industry and Auto Convoy (10/19/2004 11:38:14 PM)

Hi, I've yet to get an adequate handle on the inter-relationships between these compnents of the Japanese war machine (or in my case, lack thereof). So here are some of my questions.

I've got Haiphong on my auto convoy list and supplies go in, while resources come out. However, oil doesn't get sent to Haiphong (because it has no HI) and I need it there for Hanoi's heavy industry (I presume). If I send indepenent oil convoys to Haiphong will the oil be transferred automatically to Hanoi. If not how do I get oil to Hanoi?

Next question. I've got a half dozen Japanese mainland cities opeating on a shoe-string for oil (eg. 600 HI and 700 oil in storage), but then have 3-4 home island cities that do not have any HI but have been stocked with 60-90K of oil and resources (in storage). Is there a way to control the allocation of oil storage on the home island without using tankers (these are need elsewhere and many of the ports are small and load oil very slowly)?

Last question (for now). Is there any way of getting an enemy base on the Auto Convoy list when its capture is at hand (ie. before it falls)? I found that when Hong Kong and Singapore while haf of the HI was left, any oil storage present was destoyed and it took a long time to get oil to these bases so that the HI could start producing for Japan.



Central Blue -> RE: Oil, Heavy Industry and Auto Convoy (10/21/2004 12:59:54 AM)

DJ...

I can't answer all your questions, but regarding HK and Singapore, the easiest thing for the defenders to do is blow up the oil storage facilities. It should take some effort to build them back up. If you want to ship oil to occupied locations you could probably set it up manually.



dereck -> RE: Oil, Heavy Industry and Auto Convoy (10/21/2004 2:50:22 AM)

quote:

I can't answer all your questions, but regarding HK and Singapore, the easiest thing for the defenders to do is blow up the oil storage facilities. It should take some effort to build them back up. If you want to ship oil to occupied locations you could probably set it up manually.


How does one "blow up" a facility in this game?



dtravel -> RE: Oil, Heavy Industry and Auto Convoy (10/21/2004 3:01:59 AM)

One of the Beta Testers or 2by3 programmers will have to answer your questions, DJAndrews. My WAG would be that cities requiring Resources and Oil for their Heavy Industry will "pull" just enough to keep themselves running each turn from your stockpile locations. So I wouldn't expect a city with 50 HI to pull more than a hundred or so Oil at any one time from the 200,000 Oil you've unloaded in port X.



Xargun -> RE: Oil, Heavy Industry and Auto Convoy (10/21/2004 3:26:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DJAndrews

Hi, I've yet to get an adequate handle on the inter-relationships between these compnents of the Japanese war machine (or in my case, lack thereof). So here are some of my questions.

I've got Haiphong on my auto convoy list and supplies go in, while resources come out. However, oil doesn't get sent to Haiphong (because it has no HI) and I need it there for Hanoi's heavy industry (I presume). If I send indepenent oil convoys to Haiphong will the oil be transferred automatically to Hanoi. If not how do I get oil to Hanoi?


First of all I do not use auto convoy so I'm not sure on how it handles this... As for Hanoi.. As long as it has a clear rail track into china it will pull oil from Canton and such. I never ship anything into Hanoi as it always pulls enough via rail from china to operate its HI...

quote:

ORIGINAL: DJAndrews
Next question. I've got a half dozen Japanese mainland cities opeating on a shoe-string for oil (eg. 600 HI and 700 oil in storage), but then have 3-4 home island cities that do not have any HI but have been stocked with 60-90K of oil and resources (in storage). Is there a way to control the allocation of oil storage on the home island without using tankers (these are need elsewhere and many of the ports are small and load oil very slowly)?


If you watch the processes of turns it moves supply and resources BEFORE it runs production. This allows bases with HI that do not have enough oil/resources to pull it from a nearby base (via rail/road) in amounts enough so run its HI.. So in Japan (and other landlocked bases) if a nearby base has oil/resources the HI base will pull what it needs from that base before production is run - thus it will have enough for each turn.. Most of these landlocked bases do NOT stockpile oil/resources above what it needs for 1 turn of production. I do not know why, but that is how it seems to work.

I drop oil/resources off at the large ports (size 6+) and let the rail network in Japan move it to where its actually needed. This system works fine and makes it easier for us - all we have to do is get it to ANY port in japan and the AI takes it from there... Remember, it will cross up to 1 hex of water as long as there are size 3+ port on each side - so all of japan is covered quite easily.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DJAndrews
Last question (for now). Is there any way of getting an enemy base on the Auto Convoy list when its capture is at hand (ie. before it falls)? I found that when Hong Kong and Singapore while haf of the HI was left, any oil storage present was destoyed and it took a long time to get oil to these bases so that the HI could start producing for Japan.


I do not believe you can tag enemy bases on the auto convoy... But like I stated before I do not use Auto Convoy so I don't know for sure...

Xargun



Feinder -> RE: Oil, Heavy Industry and Auto Convoy (10/21/2004 3:34:39 PM)

If the defender has engineers at base with oil/resources etc, and land combat occurs where the defender is forced to retreat or surrender, the endgineers will damage the facilities before they leave. The more intact your engineers are, the less intact the facilities will be...

-F-



Central Blue -> RE: Oil, Heavy Industry and Auto Convoy (10/21/2004 11:25:50 PM)

which is why I like to stack every engineer I can find in places like Palembang, Batavia, etc.



DJAndrews -> RE: Oil, Heavy Industry and Auto Convoy (10/22/2004 3:53:43 PM)

Xargun,

The problem I have with Hanoi is that in Scenario 15 the rail line east of Hanoi is held by allied forces at the start of the game. There is no oil in Canton or any other Chinese base along the south coast (until you get to Shanghai) unless you send it there because none of the bases have heavy industry. That being said, if you've been able to supply oil to Hanoi via rail, shipping some to Haiphong should work.

As far as the home islands is concerned I guess that you're right, although its uncomfortable having just slightly more than 1 days oil on hand at one location and 90K oil at another base that has no heavy industry. In addition, it would be nice to be able to spread oil resources out, once allied bombing begins.

There remains a problem with Toyahara on the northern "fifth" island in the chain. Not being part of the home island chain (technically) its small amount of heavy industry is sitting idle (because it has zero oil in storage - I'd assumed it would be covered by the internal distribution you referred to but its not). It appears that whether you use the auto convoy or not, you need to keep a close eye on remote or inland bases with heavy industry (there are a bunch in China and Manchuria).



Xargun -> RE: Oil, Heavy Industry and Auto Convoy (10/22/2004 4:03:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DJAndrews

Xargun,

The problem I have with Hanoi is that in Scenario 15 the rail line east of Hanoi is held by allied forces at the start of the game. There is no oil in Canton or any other Chinese base along the south coast (until you get to Shanghai) unless you send it there because none of the bases have heavy industry. That being said, if you've been able to supply oil to Hanoi via rail, shipping some to Haiphong should work.


Don't forget Hanoi has rail connection through SE Asia and to Saigon which I believe has oil at game start.. If not, then you need to clear those rail lines of allied units... Dumping some oil into Haiphong would serve as an emergency pool but you need to clear those rails between Hanoi and Nanning - Canton... Very important rails...

quote:

ORIGINAL: DJAndrews
As far as the home islands is concerned I guess that you're right, although its uncomfortable having just slightly more than 1 days oil on hand at one location and 90K oil at another base that has no heavy industry. In addition, it would be nice to be able to spread oil resources out, once allied bombing begins.


I don't think its that easy to wipe out stockpiles of oil / resources at bases.. Won't know for sure until some players get to those late game stages where it is a problem..

quote:

ORIGINAL: DJAndrews
There remains a problem with Toyahara on the northern "fifth" island in the chain. Not being part of the home island chain (technically) its small amount of heavy industry is sitting idle (because it has zero oil in storage - I'd assumed it would be covered by the internal distribution you referred to but its not). It appears that whether you use the auto convoy or not, you need to keep a close eye on remote or inland bases with heavy industry (there are a bunch in China and Manchuria).


I usuaully ship a TK full of oil to Toyohara every so often - usually enough to run it for 6 months or more.. Same with resources.. That way if you forget about it for a while you're not losing the HI production.. Plus, Toyohara is one of the places I expand HI... Its very small to start (5 I think) and I like building it up to the 30 range.... 30 is a good number - nice size for real affect in HI production and small enough not to be a huge drain on oil / resources..

Xargun



DJAndrews -> RE: Oil, Heavy Industry and Auto Convoy (10/23/2004 2:24:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Xargun


Don't forget Hanoi has rail connection through SE Asia and to Saigon which I believe has oil at game start.. If not, then you need to clear those rail lines of allied units... Dumping some oil into Haiphong would serve as an emergency pool but you need to clear those rails between Hanoi and Nanning - Canton... Very important rails...



I'm interested that you think so. I have just finished clearing the rail hexes between Hanoi and Canton, but have concluded that it was a mistake.

This particular section of rail isn't very useful to Japan until they are ready to advance on Kunming (probably after the supply over the Burma Road has been curtailed). Use of the rail by the allies can be denied by holding Hanoi, Canton and Pakhoi/Nanning (at least I think its Nanning) in strength and you use a lot fewer troops. The "defense points" can be supplied easily from sea. I usually use Pakhoi as a troop resting area anyway (rather than Taan or Haiphong) because it is non-malarial.

It takes a lot of assault points to occupy the entire rail line because the allies are free to concentrate anywhere they wish. True, the rail lets you send reinforcements to critical points quickly, but you're really not achieving very much by holding the railroad, for a whole lot of effort. I can find other uses for the the 51 Division.

Your thoughts?



Xargun -> RE: Oil, Heavy Industry and Auto Convoy (10/23/2004 3:47:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DJAndrews

I'm interested that you think so. I have just finished clearing the rail hexes between Hanoi and Canton, but have concluded that it was a mistake.

This particular section of rail isn't very useful to Japan until they are ready to advance on Kunming (probably after the supply over the Burma Road has been curtailed). Use of the rail by the allies can be denied by holding Hanoi, Canton and Pakhoi/Nanning (at least I think its Nanning) in strength and you use a lot fewer troops. The "defense points" can be supplied easily from sea. I usually use Pakhoi as a troop resting area anyway (rather than Taan or Haiphong) because it is non-malarial.

It takes a lot of assault points to occupy the entire rail line because the allies are free to concentrate anywhere they wish. True, the rail lets you send reinforcements to critical points quickly, but you're really not achieving very much by holding the railroad, for a whole lot of effort. I can find other uses for the the 51 Division.

Your thoughts?


It is true that the rail between Nanning and Hanoi is not that important it will become more and more important as time goes on - allowing you to move troops from china anywhere along the chinese front that you want reletively easy and quick compared to moving overland or along the roads.. I usually bring all the tank regiments I can find (and buy out of japan) into either Nanning or Hanoi as they can move quickly on the roads in china and can be used to cut off - or even just threaten to cut off chinese forces from supply.. If you threaten cutting off his units that are playing on your rail he will either write them off or pull them back.. Either way you win... Dont forget to use your bombers in china to bomb resources in places like Kunming - no sense giving the chinese player free supplies each turn.. The resources in china are not that important - plenty of resources in the game - just not enough oil.. that why I always plan on taking Sian and Lanchow - nice oil spots and obtainable.. Sian is fairly easy to get early (by end of december) and Lanchow can be captured in early 42 once your units rest a bit from the heavy fighting.. Captuing these two oil bases intact does a lot to provide china with all the oil she needs, without having to steal from oil heading to japan...

Well the importance of the rails early on depends on your opponent and what they are doing in china... But.. once you clear the rails - or even during the clearing you need to move against the 3 bases on the rails north of Canton - Wuchow, Kweilon and ??? (the other one).. If your opponent wants to hold these, he has to move units there to hold them, as well as keep the road behind them clear of your units... I recommend taking Wuchow first (southern most base) as its usually the lightest defended and closest to your troops from Canton... Once you have that base, you can move a nice tank regiment north onto that road and move behind the other 2 bases and cut off their supply.. This won't have any imediate effect, but will force him to react and pull forces either from those bases to clear the line or from deeper in china to do it...

As you push into these bases, the chinese need to decide to keep playing games around Nanning or defend these bases... If he keeps playing on the rail, let him and take those bases - they are important as they are north and west of the main rail and will allow you to defend the rail easier and completely cut off any chinese unit to the south/east of them from supplies, which is a death warrant for those units...

As the game goes on you don't want to have to send oil anywhere else but japan (and occaisonally formosa or singapore) and those rail lines are what allows you to do this. The rails also allow you to automatically move supplies wherever they are needed easily and quickly - the further inland you go the more important this benefit becomes as you cannot just drop off 20k supplies via ship to inland bases... so the rail becomes very important for supply movement...

Overall a lot of your strategy in china has to do with how your opponent is defending.. Are they actively defending every base ? Or using Raverdave's strategy of withdrawing from the exposed bases.. Both strategies work and you will have to adopt your strategy to the one your opponent uses.. They both have their merits and flaws..

Xargun



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