M4 Sherman Series not modeled accurately? (Full Version)

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Dragoon 45 -> M4 Sherman Series not modeled accurately? (10/25/2004 5:53:16 AM)

I am probably not the most knowledgable person about the M4 series of medium tanks, but there are a couple of things bothering me about the way the M4 series is portrayed in SPWaW. In all the reference books I can find, the M4 series of tanks were not progressive improvements by model, i.e. M4, M4A1, M4A2, M4A3, M4A4, M4A6. The main difference between these models were different powerplants and different construction methods, i.e. welded versus cast armor etc. All of these models started construction at about the same time, with a 75mm M-3 gun in an M-34 gun mount. Armor thickness was the same on either series. All the models had a gyro stablizer that stablized the gun in elevation when moving. Additional armor, M34A1 gun mount, wet stowage of ammunition, 76mm M1A1 series gun, HVSS suspension, 105mm M-4 Gun, and 47 degree hull front were all improvements added to all series of the M4. According to my sources the M4A3E8 was not an actual production model. It was the test version of the M4 with wet stowage, HVSS, and 76mm gun, to see how it would work on a single model. While the U.S. Army favored the M4A3 series (the majority made by Ford Motor Co with the 500HP Ford GAA tank engine) for issue to its troops, it also used some M4 and M4A1 series also. The Marines were the only U.S. forces to use the M4A2 with its twin diesel engines which was according to my sources the fastest version of all the M4 series by about 5 mph. The majority of the M4A2 production and almost all M4A4 and M4A6 models were sent to lend lease stocks. Also there was actually an M4A5 which was the U.S. designation for the Canadian Grizzly tank.




pappasmurf -> RE: M4 Sherman Series not modeled accurately? (10/25/2004 6:12:45 AM)

M-4A2E8 wa sinfact a production model. Prodcution begain in August of 1944 and continued through the end of the war. The HVSS desingnation comes form the fact that all M4A3E8's had the Horizontal rahter than vertical volute suspension. While the E doe sindeed stand for experimental. The combination of 76mm M1A1 gun, wet storage, 500hp engine, and armor improvments was adopted as a production midel.

Read below


The American experimental designs were identified as E8. The M.4 tanks equipped with the new HVSS were, therefore, nicknamed "Easy Eight". Its main armament, as said, was a powerful 76mm gun capable of delivering an AP round at a 780 mt/sec. muzzle speed (piercing capacity 101 mm at 1,000 yds) or firing at maximum distance of approximaly 15,000 yards.

Production started in the first months of 1944 and continued through April 1945. The "Super Sherman" M.4 A-3 E8 became the standard tank of the 3rd and 7th US Armies in Europe. Although it could not compete on a One-on-One basis neither with the big German tanks (Panthers and Tigers) nor, if that had been the case, with the new T34-85s, its technical realibilty and adequate armament, coupled with the US Army magnificent logistic organization and unlimited supplying capacities, guaranteed the M.4 A-3 E8 a prolonged, honourable life. It bravely soldiered in Korea as well as in the Middle East and equipped, in the post-war years, many Western allied armies.

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quarters/1975/m4a3e8.htm




m10bob -> RE: M4 Sherman Series not modeled accurately? (10/25/2004 6:48:43 AM)

Pappasmurf is correct,but in fact,the "Easy 8" did encounter the Soviet-made T34/85(in Korea),and did quite well actually.
[:D]




pappasmurf -> RE: M4 Sherman Series not modeled accurately? (10/25/2004 8:21:17 AM)

ya the USSR didn't really make a good medium from 1942 (introductiin of the Pz-IVf2) Until the introduction of the T-54. The problem was a great design with a pi** poor gun. The USSR had the D-10T 100mm HV canon in WW2 but failed to use it properly in a tank. Just in the SU-100 (limited production) and the T-12 ATG




Dragoon 45 -> RE: M4 Sherman Series not modeled accurately? (10/26/2004 3:24:12 AM)

The reason I started this thread, is to highlight what my research has found. The M4, M4A1, M4A2, M4A3, and M4A4 all had production versions with HVSS, 76mm gun, and wet ammo stowage. What I wanted to highlight was that all the different models of the Sherman built during the same time frame had the same capabilities, i.e. targeting, ROF, optics, etc. Each model was improved on over time, with each model receiving the same improvements, i.e. HVSS, 76mm gun etc. The M4A3 was not the third improved model of the original M4, in fact the M4A3 was the fifth production model due to the developmental time needed for the Ford tank engine, the GAA 500hp V-8.

The differences between the models were mainly type of powerplant and method of construction. Ford Motor Company which built most of the M4A3 series classifies the M4A3E8 as the prototype for the M4A3 with HVSS, 76mm gun, and wet stowage, according to the reference books that I have. Also the prototype for the M4A1 with HVSS, 76mm gun, and wet ammo stowage was the M4A1E8, and for the M4A2 it was the M4A2E8. What I was trying to bring to the attention of others was the apparent differences between the versions. An M4A1 76mm and an M4A3 76mm had the same armor and same fire control capabilities. The medium tank T-23 provided the turret that all the 76mm gun armed Shermans had. The original turret of the M4 armed with the 75mm gun was too small to take a 76mm gun, not enough room for the breach to recoil. So the designers took the turret of the T-23 medium tank and modified it to fit the M4 chassis. All the 76mm armed Shermans had the same turret and same fire control capabilities, the only difference being which version of the 76mm M1 gun was fitted to the turret. There was a speed difference between the models due to the different powerplants and transmissions used in the different models. The introduction of the HVSS improved the ride and also improved the ability to fire on the move, not that most crews tried that. But the only version of the Sherman that was not produced with HVSS according to my sources was the M4A6 which only had 75 total production vehicles.

The T-23 medium tank in its final form was equipped with torsion bar suspension (same as the Pershing), 76mm gun, thicker armor, and most importantly about a foot lower in height than the M4 series. Depending on sources, somewhere between 250 and 1250 of these tanks were built but never deployed in combat.

A 76mm armed version of the Sherman was developed in 1942, but did not go into production until early 1944. Stateside officials delayed the production due to the differences in doctrine between the Armor Forces and Tank Destroyer Command. They did not want to see a 76mm armed Sherman on the grounds that it would encourage U.S. Tank Crews to engage other tanks which under the then current doctrine was the job of the Tank Destroyers. Almost 1700 M-10's were built based either on the M4A2 or M4A3 chassis and a little over 1700 M-36's were built based on the M4A3 chassis. The M-18 was the only purpose built tank destroyer that had nothing in common with the Sherman chassis.

If you want some really arcane knowledge, there was even one version of the Sherman built for mine clearance work that had no tracks at all. It replaced all the running gear with a tricycle arrangement with three large (10' diameter) thick metal wheels, two at the front and one at the back, with the bottom of the hull being something like 8' off the ground. Another version tested the installation of the halftrack type suspension instead of the Verticle Volute or HVSS type.




Major Destruction -> RE: M4 Sherman Series not modeled accurately? (10/26/2004 3:50:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dragoon 45

I am probably not the most knowledgable person about the M4 series of medium tanks,

Judging by your post, you are probably wrong.

[;)]

[;)]

[:D]




DoubleDeuce -> RE: M4 Sherman Series not modeled accurately? (10/26/2004 11:19:40 PM)

What! Its been 2 days and Jess hadn't added his 2 cents yet. Are you OK Jess? [:D]




Wild Bill -> RE: M4 Sherman Series not modeled accurately? (10/27/2004 7:55:22 AM)

Interesting data, Dragoon! I was not aware of the Canadian Grizzly being designated as an M4A5. Yes, the Easy 8 was much preferred over the M-26 tank in Korea, a much more reliable tank and fully capable of dispatching the T-34/85.

WB




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