quote:

ORIGINAL: Tiornu

Yes, it should have said "six 20in guns with dual turrets."
Fisher's specs actually called for belt 16in armor, though he was willing to reduce this and the 6in secondary battery to secure a 30-knot speed. But then, he also started out with 16in guns.
Perhaps strangest of all was his proposal for secondary guns in disappearing mounts. You can't say this guy never thought outside the box.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tiornu

I've often see the "speed is armor" quote ascribed to Fisher, but I've never seen any documentation on its context. If he was referring to the use of large cruisers against the enemy's battle line, then I'd have to say the historical precedents tend to support his idea. I don't know of any disproportionate losses we can pin on him for it.
As far as I can tell, the only reason for proposing the disappearing mounts would be to indulge the appetite for newfangled whatevers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tiornu

Une moment, messieurs! No battlecruisers were destroyed while operating as part of a battle line. Unless you want to consider Hood a BC and Denmark Strait a battle-line action.
It's also interesting to keep in mind that the number of BC destroyed by BB is about the same as the number of BB destroyed by BC.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tiornu

"Depends what you call a BC, and what you call a battle line."
That's an important point. A lot of this hangs on points of nomenclature, and a lot of misconceptions have evolved from their into ossified hindsight.
It bears repeating that battlecruisers were simply outgrowth of the armored cruiser, whose role included engaging enemy battleships from postions of tactical superiority. I'm guessing this is what is meant by "speed is armor," and in this very limited sense, it is a valid statement.
Not one BC sunk at Jutland owes its loss to a BB; the fatal blows were all struck by other BC.
If we adhere strictly to official nomenclature, only one battlecruiser was ever sunk by a battleship, and that was Hood sunk by Bismarck. Also, only one battleship was sunk by a battlecruiser, and that was Bretagne sunk by Hood.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tiornu

"Depends what you call a BC, and what you call a battle line."
That's an important point. A lot of this hangs on points of nomenclature, and a lot of misconceptions have evolved from their into ossified hindsight.
It bears repeating that battlecruisers were simply outgrowth of the armored cruiser, whose role included engaging enemy battleships from postions of tactical superiority. I'm guessing this is what is meant by "speed is armor," and in this very limited sense, it is a valid statement.
Not one BC sunk at Jutland owes its loss to a BB; the fatal blows were all struck by other BC.
If we adhere strictly to official nomenclature, only one battlecruiser was ever sunk by a battleship, and that was Hood sunk by Bismarck. Also, only one battleship was sunk by a battlecruiser, and that was Bretagne sunk by Hood. Deviating from official nomenclature, we can also say the BC Kirishima was sunk by Washington (and SoDak). BUt with each of these examples, we can see that the precise labels did not matter. Hood was sunk, not because she was a battlecruiser, but because she was an unmodernized ship fighting a newer, larger opponent. Bretagne was hardly in a fair fight, just a fish in a barrel. And poor Kirishima was up against two ships that were newer, larger, and more powerful.
In fact, Fisher's vision for the battlecruiser was that it would eclipse the battleship or, perhaps more precisely, not "beat" the BB but "join" it. The modern dreadnoughts of post-1930 can all be seen as "fast battleships" or "armored battlecruisers," a BB-BC hybrid.
You know, it's hard to focus on Fisher's intentions and edicts; he made so many disparate statements at various times, I wouldn't be surprised if he once predicted the trawler would make the submarine obsolete. Dinghies are armor!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

YOu mean Fisher acknowledged the submarine as a weapon? I thought that was back when the submarine "was not a gentleman's weapon, as it did not fight in plain view." Gotta love the British.

quote:

ORIGINAL: madmickey

I also forgot Doug Haig great comment that The German will run out of ammo before we run out of Troop at the Battle of the Somme. It does help your military career when you wife is a lady in waiting to the Queen.

quote:

One achievement credited to Hood is striking two different battleships with a single shell.

quote:

the navy with the largest sub fleet was......Britian