THE IMPERIAL JAPANESE DEATH STAR (Full Version)

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spence -> THE IMPERIAL JAPANESE DEATH STAR (11/10/2004 3:20:35 AM)

NEED TO RANT A BIT


I've been playing PBEM UV for quite some time now (mostly as the USN). Naturally my IJN opponents (and myself when playing the IJN) have put together a "Death Star" composed of every available carrier which sails around blasting everything within range to atoms and which is quite impervious to virtually any USN attack throughout 1942 - I'm guessing that in 1943 it may not fare as well though I have either lost to an IJN AV on 1/1/43 or had my IJN opponent disappear from the face of the earth as that date approached so I can't speak to the "Death Star's" durability in 1943.
Some of the "Death Star's" abilities do not seem to be supported by historical records:
1) The ability to put 100+ fighters on CAP from multiple TFs and have them all act in concert. The USN can do this too but it seems to be hard-coded that the USN almost never launches a strike by more than about 50 planes in 1942 so the 100+ IJN CAP can usually devaste each raid before the bombers attack whereas the USN contends with strikes as described below so even 100 F4Fs can never shoot down enough bombers to prevent the sinking of the carrier(s). Since not every IJN fighter even had a radio and the IJN did not even attempt to develop a fighter direction radar doctrine (such as the USN eventually developed) the IJN ability to control this gigantic CAP is clearly ahistorical. The USN was trying to develop this doctrine but certainly to have it function reliably in 1942 (at least) would be ahistorical as well (but at least the USN had a foggy idea about how it should function. Seems to me that it functioned quite well in '43 when Saratoga & Princeton raided Rabaul though.
2) The ability to launch a coordinated attack by over 200 dive/torpedo bombers covered by 70-80 fighters as well. The Kido Butai first team didn't even manage that at Pearl Harbor when they had months to rehearse every move in the hangar and on the flight deck before hand. Nine CVs/CVLs at Philippine Sea never managed to get more than 110 planes (total) sorted out into a single strike (though I imagine that staff work/flight deck crews were somewhat degraded from 1942 standards). At Santa Cruz Junyo's strike was not coordinated with Shokaku's and Zuikaku's so there is no record of anything like the "Death Star's Super Raid" anywhere in the historical record.

Perhaps this is just sour grapes but seems to me that alot of the scenarios: 12 15-17, 19 are pretty well scripted (barring some unlikely disaster such as USN subs/mines being able to put several IJN heavy carriers out of action). The IJN player simply has to delay doing anything until he can build his "Death Star" and then take whatever he wants to take. As far as carrier battles are concerned I for one have never seen the USN even break even (irrespective of whether he has all F4F4s and TBFs equipping all squadrons and all 6 CVs) in a direct confrontation with the "Death Star" even with LBA (which never attacks the CVs) in support.

In Scens 12, 17, 19 and the one where the IJN starts with Port Moresby captured (15 or 16) the IJN player has everything but the kitchen sink available to him and the USN player gets the same old, same old reinforcements even though it would seem that the MAGIC guys in Pearl Harbor would likely to have been able to determine that the Japanese had determined to stake everything on an effort in the South Pacific and therefore some resources might safely be diverted from the Central/North Pacific thence as well. Since there is no likelihood that the USN Player is going to get anything additional (if you set the USN commitment level to 200% there is next to nothing extra to commit through the summer of 1942 anyway) there is no pressure on the IJN player to do anything before he can build his "Death Star".

Anyway I have a few questions:

1) Any IJN player out there ever won a long scenario without creating this ahistorical monstrosity?

2) Any USN player ever go head to head with the typical "Death Star" and come out on top or at least ding it up bad enough to make further offensive moves by the IJN improbable?

3) I really like UV but the scripting this "Death Star" is getting a bit stale.

4) For those who know, does the IJN build Death Star's in War in the Pacific too?



marky -> RE: THE IMPERIAL JAPANESE DEATH STAR (11/10/2004 5:32:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

NEED TO RANT A BIT


I've been playing PBEM UV for quite some time now (mostly as the USN). Naturally my IJN opponents (and myself when playing the IJN) have put together a "Death Star" composed of every available carrier which sails around blasting everything within range to atoms and which is quite impervious to virtually any USN attack throughout 1942 - I'm guessing that in 1943 it may not fare as well though I have either lost to an IJN AV on 1/1/43 or had my IJN opponent disappear from the face of the earth as that date approached so I can't speak to the "Death Star's" durability in 1943.
Some of the "Death Star's" abilities do not seem to be supported by historical records:
1) The ability to put 100+ fighters on CAP from multiple TFs and have them all act in concert. The USN can do this too but it seems to be hard-coded that the USN almost never launches a strike by more than about 50 planes in 1942 so the 100+ IJN CAP can usually devaste each raid before the bombers attack whereas the USN contends with strikes as described below so even 100 F4Fs can never shoot down enough bombers to prevent the sinking of the carrier(s). Since not every IJN fighter even had a radio and the IJN did not even attempt to develop a fighter direction radar doctrine (such as the USN eventually developed) the IJN ability to control this gigantic CAP is clearly ahistorical. The USN was trying to develop this doctrine but certainly to have it function reliably in 1942 (at least) would be ahistorical as well (but at least the USN had a foggy idea about how it should function. Seems to me that it functioned quite well in '43 when Saratoga & Princeton raided Rabaul though.
2) The ability to launch a coordinated attack by over 200 dive/torpedo bombers covered by 70-80 fighters as well. The Kido Butai first team didn't even manage that at Pearl Harbor when they had months to rehearse every move in the hangar and on the flight deck before hand. Nine CVs/CVLs at Philippine Sea never managed to get more than 110 planes (total) sorted out into a single strike (though I imagine that staff work/flight deck crews were somewhat degraded from 1942 standards). At Santa Cruz Junyo's strike was not coordinated with Shokaku's and Zuikaku's so there is no record of anything like the "Death Star's Super Raid" anywhere in the historical record.

Perhaps this is just sour grapes but seems to me that alot of the scenarios: 12 15-17, 19 are pretty well scripted (barring some unlikely disaster such as USN subs/mines being able to put several IJN heavy carriers out of action). The IJN player simply has to delay doing anything until he can build his "Death Star" and then take whatever he wants to take. As far as carrier battles are concerned I for one have never seen the USN even break even (irrespective of whether he has all F4F4s and TBFs equipping all squadrons and all 6 CVs) in a direct confrontation with the "Death Star" even with LBA (which never attacks the CVs) in support.

In Scens 12, 17, 19 and the one where the IJN starts with Port Moresby captured (15 or 16) the IJN player has everything but the kitchen sink available to him and the USN player gets the same old, same old reinforcements even though it would seem that the MAGIC guys in Pearl Harbor would likely to have been able to determine that the Japanese had determined to stake everything on an effort in the South Pacific and therefore some resources might safely be diverted from the Central/North Pacific thence as well. Since there is no likelihood that the USN Player is going to get anything additional (if you set the USN commitment level to 200% there is next to nothing extra to commit through the summer of 1942 anyway) there is no pressure on the IJN player to do anything before he can build his "Death Star".

Anyway I have a few questions:

1) Any IJN player out there ever won a long scenario without creating this ahistorical monstrosity?

2) Any USN player ever go head to head with the typical "Death Star" and come out on top or at least ding it up bad enough to make further offensive moves by the IJN improbable?

3) I really like UV but the scripting this "Death Star" is getting a bit stale.

4) For those who know, does the IJN build Death Star's in War in the Pacific too?

quote:

1) Any IJN player out there ever won a long scenario without creating this ahistorical monstrosity?

2) Any USN player ever go head to head with the typical "Death Star" and come out on top or at least ding it up bad enough to make further offensive moves by the IJN improbable?

3) I really like UV but the scripting this "Death Star" is getting a bit stale.

4) For those who know, does the IJN build Death Star's in War in the Pacific too?



[:'(]


well spence

1. ive never really played the ijn for a long period, i intend to, but i havent gotten around to it yet, due to some recent events in my life = long story lol[:D]

2. i have gone head to head with the death star and pretty much utterly destroyed it on at least 1 occasion [8D][:D]

3. u just have to do the right things to defeat the might death star

IE -
A. use lba
B. rest and train ur pilots
C. have numerical superiority
D. preferably wait till they made at least 1 airstrike which will mean theyre not as fresh as they would be if ud just intercepted them just coming out of truk
E. know where they are and if they have any friends
F try using a couple subs on them - a couple times i got lucky with a sub or 2

4. as for whether the IJN builds the deathstar in WITP, i dont know cuz i havent played it cuz i dont have it lol[:(]

tho i would assume that the AI would

check my AAR in the AAR section, its called =

my 3rd scenario

IMHO, i really kikked sum IJN tail in that scen[:D]

and u can always ask me or 1 of the other vets



Miller -> RE: THE IMPERIAL JAPANESE DEATH STAR (11/10/2004 4:41:18 PM)

When playing the USN I have found it is better to bide your time and wait for Hornet, Enterprise and Saratoga to appear and make a five CV taskforce to counter the "Death Star".

Also replace all TBD squadrons with an extra wildcat unit, designate one or two carriers solely as CAP providers, put three wildcat squadrons on each carrier and set them all to CAP only, remembering to vary the altitudes they fly at to catch the Kates as these are the main ship killers in 42...



crsutton -> RE: THE IMPERIAL JAPANESE DEATH STAR (11/10/2004 9:42:23 PM)

All the advice here is sound. Remember Scens 17 and 19 are ahistorical. Why would you expect your Japanese opponent to act in a historical manner and face certain defeat? I have played both sides. If I had to rate the long scenarios, I give a good Japanese player about a %40 chance of winning scen 17 and perhaps a 50-50 bet on scen 19. I like playing the Japanese but feel more confident that I can win as the Allies. That is, the Allied player can make a mistake or two and still win the game. The Japanese can not make mistakes.

To answer your questions, yes I have defeated the death star and no, If I am the Japanese player facing all six American carriers (that is ahistorical too) I use the death star.

Here is my basic plan for dealing with the Japanese carriers. It seems to work pretty well. This is scen 20, which is the one I favor but the same remains true for 17 or any scen where you are defending.

1. Never use your carriers to fight for the advance bases. I am talking Gili and Port Morsby here. You are gonna lose them reguardless and your carriers will sink if hit with no base to retreat to.

2. Work to deplete the Japanese first. Try to draw them into attacks that will lose planes. Many Japanese players use carrier aircraft to bomb bases. (generally a bad idea) The idea is to depleat the pilot corp and see the experience levels drop.

3. Never engage the Japanese until you have all carriers, until all F3Fs are replaced, and until all devestators have been replaced.

4. Pick your engagements carefully. The only time you "have: to engage with your carriers are if the enemy is threatening to take an autovictory port. Then you have to fight. But so do the Japanese. Many times I just shuttle my carrier aircraft to the threatened bases and do not use the carriers at all.

5. Never fight any battle more than a few hexes away from a good size friendly port. They have to come to you. You want your damaged ships and squadrons to get back to port. He will have to go further and has a greater chance of sinking. You can use LBCAP and just perhaps your mediums will get an attack in. Put Beauforts and spare dauntlesses with plenty of fighters at your advanced bases. If you have a strong enough escort, they will attack.

6. Keep a reserve of subs to mass around areas where you expect carrier operations. You might just put a fish into one of the carriers.

7. Always angle to have your carrier pilots fully rested and with high morale. They will send out big strikes then. Chances are the attacker will be fatigued because he will need to keep patrols and CAP out.

As long as you drive off the attempted invasion of your auto victory ports, you can win. I feel that the Americans can lose up to four (five) carriers and if they are still in the fight on Jan 1, 1943, will have the better chance to win.


One last note. If a player plays the Japanese perfectly in scen #19, I don't think they can lose. Problem is I can only think of a handful of players who can do that. It is just too easy to screw up and as the Allies, you must wait for that opportunity.



Tuli Vapaa -> RE: THE IMPERIAL JAPANESE DEATH STAR (11/15/2004 12:42:13 PM)

IJN carriers have a major weakness in replacement pool. They simply can't replace all lost Vals and Kates (scn 17 especially, but 19 also). Human opponent doesn't attack bases, so best option is getting IJN attack your battlewagons. Battleships are full of AA guns, generally attacked on sight by AI and single attack can rip heart out of IJN attack squardons. So you lose them? So what? Let's face it, USN player don't have many uses for these units of Marine Mobile Artillery.



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