Problems attacking (Full Version)

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TomH -> Problems attacking (11/22/2004 12:05:47 PM)

I've not been playing for long, so forgive me if there is an obvious solution to my problem! It all relates to attacks.

I have found, particularly playing the Cherbourg scenario (easy to manage so few units) that a tiny two-step Regiment can hold out against an entire Division. I need at least 10-1 odds to get a result and even then I quite often get a *-* or A1-* result. It seems ludicrous.

Surely, in WWII, getting odds of 10-1 would be unusual anyway?

Also, and this is the one you can really help me on, why is it that I may want to make an attack by, say, two regiments against a single enemy unit; I'll place the attack icon and the Combat Resolution screen comes up, but no odds are displayed. Only by adding arty or leaders doesn't give me odds, but, by pressing the maximise combat button I am able to get poor odds meaning that an attack is pointless.

Am I really missing the point because this seems very unrealistic.

Lastly, on the Cherbourg mini-scenario, I'm useless. After the 8 day limit I'm usually only about 3 hexes closer to Cherbourg. What's the technique?![&:]



Awac835 -> RE: Problems attacking (11/22/2004 3:31:23 PM)

hey,
first there is the attack and defence strength which will be measured against each others to give odds, next there is the shifts.

Lets say you have 20-70 that should give you 1-3 odds,
But the defender gets -4 shift always, minus shifts for the CRT or the type of land the combat is on, they get from defending artillery and for being entrenched and if they are elite units.

often of you go to the attack screen you and take away everything you will see the attack shift be something like -10 then you need either alot of troops or much artillery or other indirect support, or make use of the tactical shifts for attacking from different angles.

The terrain you attack into also have a lot of things to say, attacking a unit in a city is hard without support. But attacking in clear tarrain is alot easier. Also remember to use your amour where the enemy have no anti tank units.

Also remember that a 1D-1A ain't always bad if you have alot of replacements. The germans often don't have that many replacements while the allies do have alot, a retreat can also help push back the enemy into new terrain so that they will be easier to attack again.
Try out the montys landing, i found that the allies have a very hard time crossing the river around Caen becouse of all the artillery that the germans have and the allies don't have alot themself. Remember to devide your artillery up in defensive and offensive so that you place it where you will attack and where you expect to be attacked.

But yeah i to think it is a hard game to get into, but keep at it, i feel that i have come a long way. About it being realistic, not sure. I sometimes thinks that the defence is a little strong, but i guess it really was back then.

oh another... when i first got started i always used to much units on holding the line, with good placement of defensive artillery and use of terrain and units, you can hold a line with few units, keep some as backup if the enemy should breakthrough and still have enough units to attack with 3 or maybe 4 whole divisions. And don't neglect the independent battalions and regiments as they are often very good at specific tasks. Some have high amour values so have them with you divisions that don't have good amour values and so on.

Play some games where you control both sides, set up some situations that you would like to try out and see how different stuff affect both sides, this is also good for learning where to place interdiction and such stuff.



Toby42 -> RE: Problems attacking (11/22/2004 6:04:56 PM)

You will find that in this game, it's not that the AI is so good, but that the odds are stacked against you when you play the attacker.. You are right it is ludricous with the ten to one odds. You never "roll" a high number.



Awac835 -> RE: Problems attacking (11/22/2004 6:52:52 PM)

I don't think you should expect *-D2 all the time, when you attack you will take losses. What you should aim for is getting retreats and then have units to back up when taking new terrain so you can defend it. Also try and see if you can cut of a few units. I think it hard but sometimes im lucky to get some that have lost there way, then they will be out of supply and easy to beat.

I just bought Stephen E. Ambrose Citizen Soldiers, from what he writes, the fighting in normandy wasn't a cakewalk, and the soldiers wasn't prepeard to fight in the bocage. At a point he says that it wasn't only the allied who had trouble attacking so did the axis. It was the terrain they fought on that made it easy to defend.

There also is a post somewhere in the KP forum about odds. Its a long mathematical article about properbility and statistics. But if you read it he draws the conlusion that it ain't always best to go for two 10-1+'s if you could do three 6-1's and so on.



Toby42 -> RE: Problems attacking (11/22/2004 7:00:25 PM)

We probably only remember the one rolls and forget the 6 rolls. It still seems as though the dice are stacked against the defender. [8|]



Awac835 -> RE: Problems attacking (11/22/2004 8:31:25 PM)

There is a display to show you the average dice roll, just press Q a number of times.



Adam Parker -> RE: Problems attacking (11/23/2004 12:55:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TomH

Surely, in WWII, getting odds of 10-1 would be unusual anyway?


Actually Tom, 21st Army Group comprising all Allied forces at Normandy and commanded by Montgomery felt that unless the Germans were attacked at "highly favorable odds" the entire campaign would be lost.

Based on the experiences of the Western Desert, Tunisia, Sicily and Italy to that point, it was felt that wherever the Allies faced the Axis at odds in the vicinity 1:1 or 2:1, they were always at a disadvantage compared to the seasoned rank and file of the enemy.

Here's a tip to seeing some realism in the game's design. "Battles in Normandy" at the regimental scale certainly makes the battlefield look much neater than it really was. We need to remember, that when moving units and engaging in combat that this process is actually spanning the entire day the turn depicts. Therefore moving a stack of regiments, could represent the gradual positioning over an entire 24 hour period of platoons, companies and battalions entering and breaking contact piecemeal and at different times during the entire sequence. It is for this reason itself, that 2 divisions land at Utah on Turn 1 - one totally separate from the other by hours but thrown together so to speak within the space of one turn. Naval firepower taking out strongpoints before units land in reality, would have additionally been seen concurrently during the entire 24 turn. It's just that with a day-long turn sequence, everything appears to be happening neatly and at prescribed moments of time.

Therefore when it comes to battle, taking in this "reality", look at the equipment you're attacking with vs that defending, the strengths of these opposing forces, elements of shock vs anti-shock, terrain and entrenchments, quality and training. Understand limitations of corps leadership visiting the battle zone, air power being highly confused and restricted owing to some fairly quarelsome headquater arrangements, the paucity of Allied artillery and air forward controllers. Then you'll understand why some battles simply will not be feasible (no combat dice) with both sides at stalemate from the start, why sometimes combat modifiers such as corps arty, leadership and air just won't be available to employ.

You'll therefore be able to plan your command better and also internalize the abstraction that play at SSG's 24 hour regimental level entails.

Adam.



Fred98 -> RE: Problems attacking (11/23/2004 1:04:19 AM)

As for your comment “10 –1” is “ludicrous”, you may have misunderstood. If you watch a football game, both sides will have the same number of men. But one side is better than the other and so in game after game between the 2 sides, one side will always win by 50 points.

This same superiority is represented in the game as follows; If a unit of 100 men attacks a unit of 50 men, you would say the odds are 2-1. But that’s not true. The attacking unit might be elite and experienced and win easily. In game terms we might say the odds were 10-1.


In some terrain, 10-1 might absolutly smash the enemy, but in other terrain it might only damage him slightly. In Bocage, the latter is true. So, attack somewhere else. Or force him to retreat to other terrain and then attack him there. Check the "retreat priorities" in the manual.


+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +

BTW, the “odds” are a throw back to the days when we all played board games

I don’t have the game in front of me but a typical Combat Results Table (“CRT”) would look something like this:

1-3, 1-2, 1-1, 2-1, 3-1, 4-1, 5-1, 6-1, 7-1, 8-1, 9-1, 10-1, 10+-1,

That’s 13 columns.

And a dice has 6 sides so that’s 78 possible results.

Now that we have computers, of course we use virtual dice. A virtual dice could have any number of sides. But having a dice with 6 or 8 or 10 sides is something the mind can grasp.

And the game can be understood. If there were 1,000 variables, as there is in real life, you don’t really know why something happened and then you can’t figure how to counter your opponent – and the enjoyment is reduced.



Gregor_SSG -> RE: Problems attacking (11/23/2004 1:53:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TomH

I've not been playing for long, so forgive me if there is an obvious solution to my problem! It all relates to attacks.

I have found, particularly playing the Cherbourg scenario (easy to manage so few units) that a tiny two-step Regiment can hold out against an entire Division. I need at least 10-1 odds to get a result and even then I quite often get a *-* or A1-* result. It seems ludicrous.

Surely, in WWII, getting odds of 10-1 would be unusual anyway?

Also, and this is the one you can really help me on, why is it that I may want to make an attack by, say, two regiments against a single enemy unit; I'll place the attack icon and the Combat Resolution screen comes up, but no odds are displayed. Only by adding arty or leaders doesn't give me odds, but, by pressing the maximise combat button I am able to get poor odds meaning that an attack is pointless.

Am I really missing the point because this seems very unrealistic.

Lastly, on the Cherbourg mini-scenario, I'm useless. After the 8 day limit I'm usually only about 3 hexes closer to Cherbourg. What's the technique?![&:]


The raw odds of a combat, that is the simple comparison of the number of men on each side, is only the starting point for consideration of any combat, and that's how it is in the Decisive Battles system. There are lots of different factors, as pointed out by posts above, that affect combat, and we incorporate all these to produce final odds for any combat. This is where you can get to 10:1, even though there aren't ten times as many men on one side as another.

It is a historical fact that attacking in bocage was particularly difficult, and our system properly reflects this. If you look at the history of the Normandy campaign, there are long periods of time where despite continued Allied pressure, the front line hardly moves.

As for the Cherbourg scenario, there a number of things you can do to improve your chances.

Try playing as the Germans against the AI controlled Allies. You will get a much better appreciation of the problems the Germans face, and can use that knowledge when you play as the Allies again.

Pay particular attention to how the AI uses its Air Interdiction, as that's one of the keys to winning as the Allies.

Do not use the max button to actually commit units to attacks, as it will commit all possible units. Use it only to give yourself an idea of what's possible, then pick the units and the artillery yourself. Use the minimum possible units to get the odds you want, units that aren't used in the attack are available for moving into vacated hexes or conducting further attacks.

Don't forget the Navy! You have floating batteries offshore. All attacks on the eastern flank should use the Destroyers for artillery support saving the land based artillery for work out of Destroyer range. Also, your two Battleships and your Heavy Cruiser can perform Interdiction, very useful in cutting enemy supply lines.

Don't always aim for 10:1. Look closely at the CRTs. Two attacks at lower odds will probably end up doing more damage than one roll of the dice at 10:1.

Check out the discussion forums at www.ssg.com.au. There's some informative articles and After Action Reports, and when you're ready you can try an Email game against a human opponent, which is the best way to learn the finer points of the game.

Gregor



TomH -> RE: Problems attacking (11/23/2004 10:48:34 AM)

Gentlmen, thanks a lot for all the interesting posts. It says a lot that all the posts were during the night, seeing as I'm in the UK[:)]

I spent a lot of time playing the game last night (until my better half told me she wanted some sleep - they don't understand how important the job of commanding so many men actually is!!)

As for the CRT and odds, I think I spoke (typed) before I engaged my brain. I've been a board gamer in the past and have about a dozen games stacked in the garage, so I understand the CRT and the fact that so many factors go into the calculation of the odds. I've started using the button that allows you to see the 'rough' odds first (v good), which, in my 'Overlord' scenario, explains why the German units in and around Caen are virtually impenetrable, as are my commandos defending my flank.

Last night I kept on using the 'best odds' button for combat because I couldn't get any odds unless I did so. I was pressing all the other 'add leader, arty etc' buttons but never got anything worth bothering with i.e. not even 1D. So, while I understand (and when I get home, will try) the idea of multiple attacks using lesser odds, I'm not sure it'll work.

I shall persevere!![:@]



pterrok -> RE: Problems attacking (11/23/2004 4:05:56 PM)

Check my sig for a link to the informative article mentioned above!



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