RE: Clarification of future development plans (Full Version)

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dtravel -> RE: Clarification of future development plans (12/2/2004 1:00:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

And now I will back off a little with my screaming. All it takes is some word from the higher ups as to what is going on.

Thank you Joel.


Now that you've calmed down, think you could have a word with Ron please?

<[:D], duck and run!>



2ndACR -> RE: Clarification of future development plans (12/2/2004 1:09:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel



Now that you've calmed down, think you could have a word with Ron please?

<[:D], duck and run!>


Lot of good that will do. He is a little on the obssessed side of things dealing with WITP. Besides, I said I will back off a little, not quit.[:-]



Joel Billings -> RE: Clarification of future development plans (12/2/2004 2:49:44 AM)

Send saves for bugs to:

sirkid@cfl.rr.com



Platoonist -> RE: Clarification of future development plans (12/2/2004 4:12:32 AM)

Thanks Joel! A "now-hear-this" from the higher ups does a lot to help restore flagging morale. [8D]

As for Ron his rants get raves in my book. [:D]



dtravel -> RE: Clarification of future development plans (12/2/2004 9:46:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel

Now that you've calmed down, think you could have a word with Ron please?

<[:D], duck and run!>


Lot of good that will do. He is a little on the obssessed side of things dealing with WITP. Besides, I said I will back off a little, not quit.[:-]


[:-] right back atcha! Did I say anything about quitting? Did I even say the Q word? Noooo, I just said that you had calmed down. (You do know that even I was stupid enough to want to, I can't take drugs, don't you?) [:D]



Ron Saueracker -> RE: Clarification of future development plans (12/2/2004 12:26:16 PM)

Eh?[X(] Are you...talking....about me? Are....you...talking about.........me?[:D]

1 this is 11, rant over....


I'll be watching.........................................[8D] I'll be cruising in the fleet boat in my sig, ready to fire a full salvo of duds, baby!!!













And yes. I'm obsessive![:)]



berto -> RE: Clarification of future development plans (12/2/2004 4:15:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kaleun

...and Matrix provides a level of support much greater than any other gaming company...


Not to belittle the excellent Matrix/2by3 support, but there is at least one other gaming company that equals or betters them in the after-release support department.

Europa Universalis II was released in 2001. (EUII is a simulation of European/world history from 1419 through 1820.) The game's developer, Strategy First, has released eight major patches (and many more minor patches) since then, the latest being patch 1.08b, issued just a couple of weeks ago (on 11/19/2004). Europa Universalis II's forum community is as active and vocal as any of Matrix Games'. Three years after EUII's release, players continue to debate game balance issues, report bugs (by now very few, and minor), and suggest improvements. And the developers, despite publishing at least three major games in the meantime (Hearts of Iron, Victoria, Crusader Kings) continue to listen, respond, and issue patches (albeit less frequently over time).

Now that, too, is incredible support! [X(]

Just trying to set the record straight.



Smiffus64 -> RE: Clarification of future development plans (12/2/2004 4:29:30 PM)

praise Paradox Entertainment if you must, they are the developers. SF is just the publisher.



sprior -> RE: Clarification of future development plans (12/2/2004 4:59:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

ready to fire a full salvo of duds, baby!!!



I bet you say that to all the girls!



Sardaukar -> RE: Clarification of future development plans (12/2/2004 5:49:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: berto

Not to belittle the excellent Matrix/2by3 support, but there is at least one other gaming company that equals or betters them in the after-release support department.

Europa Universalis II was released in 2001. (EUII is a simulation of European/world history from 1419 through 1820.) The game's developer, Strategy First, has released eight major patches (and many more minor patches) since then, the latest being patch 1.08b, issued just a couple of weeks ago (on 11/19/2004). Europa Universalis II's forum community is as active and vocal as any of Matrix Games'. Three years after EUII's release, players continue to debate game balance issues, report bugs (by now very few, and minor), and suggest improvements. And the developers, despite publishing at least three major games in the meantime (Hearts of Iron, Victoria, Crusader Kings) continue to listen, respond, and issue patches (albeit less frequently over time).

Now that, too, is incredible support! [X(]

Just trying to set the record straight.


Well, as others said too, it's not Strategy First that is giving the support. Actually it's not even Paradox Entertainment...but the Leading/Head Programmer Johan who makes those Beta Patches on his spare time, for free. And there is lot of enthusiastic players giving input and making excellent mods to game..like my favourite...AGCEEP.

Cheers,

M.S.



berto -> RE: Clarification of future development plans (12/2/2004 6:23:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

quote:

ORIGINAL: berto

Not to belittle the excellent Matrix/2by3 support, but there is at least one other gaming company that equals or betters them in the after-release support department.

Europa Universalis II was released in 2001. (EUII is a simulation of European/world history from 1419 through 1820.) The game's developer, Strategy First, has released eight major patches...



Well, as others said too, it's not Strategy First that is giving the support. Actually it's not even Paradox Entertainment...but the Leading/Head Programmer Johan who makes those Beta Patches on his spare time, for free. And there is lot of enthusiastic players giving input and making excellent mods to game..like my favourite...AGCEEP.

Cheers,

M.S.


Yes, oops, my mistake. Paradox is the developer, and EUII is Johan's Labor of Love.

I haven't purchased WITP yet (shame on me, but I simply don't have the time to play it), so I don't know if what I am about to say applies to that game. But for games of WITP's (and EUII's) complexity and scope, it is imperative that they be open source in this sense: having plain-text data and logic files intelligible to non-programmers. Make the game scriptable, especially the AI, and throw in scenario, OOB, and map editors, too. That way, the game community can fix problems itself and not be dependent on developer/publisher support continuing indefinitely.

In other words, sell a game kit, not just a "finished" game. Maybe sell two versions, the game only at a lower price, and the game plus developer's kit at a higher price.

As I understand it, Gary Grigsby's World at War will be open, fixable, and moddable. How does the GGWAW implementation differ from WITP's?



Feinder -> RE: Clarification of future development plans (12/2/2004 6:53:35 PM)

Well, the problem with a "game kit", as good an idea as it is, it generally must be incorporated into the design from the beginning.

For example, Neverwinter Nights. It's based on the Baldur's Gate engine(s). But they also -planned- on open sourcing it from the start. So the NwN engine evolved into a very different beast than the orginal BG engine. And by the time the original NwN was released, the NwN engine was -very- different than the BG engine from which it had it's start. Furthermore, and refit of the BG engine, to try to incorporate the innovations and scripting of NwN would have been a drastic undertaking. (What actually happened, was players using the NwN engine to rewrite the BG series as their own mods).

So the short is, I seriously doubt that WitP has planned as having such of "game kit", like the AI scripter of NwN. WitP certainly has it's DB editor, but that's just changing/adding figures in a DB, it's not actually altering the functions of the code. When/if they offer open source for WitP, there will surely be some utilities, but (as a dev myself), don't plan on a lot of "friendliness" from the code. Again, usually a friendly AI/code editor requires planning for it in the initial stages, and considering that it has never been mentioned that WitP has one (even for the devs), I doubt it exists.

-F-



steveh11Matrix -> RE: Clarification of future development plans (12/2/2004 6:59:22 PM)

"Plain text data and logic files". Only pre-game, via the editor, for WitP. Be very aware that 2By3 have encrypted the save game files, so you won't be able to 'see under the hood' using those.

Map editor: there's a thread in here somewhere about someone writing a modified map - both the artwork and, more importantly, the underlying datafile. Look for Andrew Brown, "Map Mod Information".

Don't hold your breath for other items on your wish list.

DON'T let any of this stop you getting the game though - for me, even with flaws and annoyances considered, it's the best Strategic/Operational game set in the Pacific/WW2 I have ever played, be it boardgame or computer game.

Steve.



Mr.Frag -> RE: Clarification of future development plans (12/2/2004 6:59:53 PM)

As to your comments about EU2, yea, fine, sure, you mean after I BOUGHT the EU patch called EU2? [8|]



Chaplain -> RE: Clarification of future development plans (12/2/2004 7:51:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

As to your comments about EU2, yea, fine, sure, you mean after I BOUGHT the EU patch called EU2? [8|]


Oooh - do I detect a trace of bitterness? [:D]

Truth of the matters is, the two great blessings in the life of any wargamer are Matrix and Paradox. Depending on which day of the week you ask me, either WitP or HOI2 is the greatest wargame ever developed.



pad152 -> RE: Clarification of future development plans (12/2/2004 9:36:12 PM)

Joel

It's very sad to hear there is no future for UV/Witp type games.
I only own two Matrix products (UV and Witp) and I think Matrix is given up on Witp way to soon.



pompack -> RE: Clarification of future development plans (12/2/2004 9:57:36 PM)

I still have that $50 dollar coffee coaster labeled Europa Universalis. I don't need it because I DID buy the $50 patch called EU II. Two years later it even worked (and I still play it)



pompack -> RE: Clarification of future development plans (12/2/2004 10:01:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaplain

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

As to your comments about EU2, yea, fine, sure, you mean after I BOUGHT the EU patch called EU2? [8|]


Truth of the matters is, the two great blessings in the life of any wargamer are Matrix and Paradox. Depending on which day of the week you ask me, either WitP or HOI2 is the greatest wargame ever developed.


But by the time I buy HOI2, I will have paid $20 more than WitP (plus shipping and handling[:)])

And yes I do have a companion coffee coaster labeled HOI[:D]



Tankerace -> RE: Clarification of future development plans (12/2/2004 10:22:16 PM)

I love Hearts of Iron.... well, only with the Stony Road Historical mod. What other game can you have German Panzers roll through Australia?

Once time, the game glitched (gasp), and on September 1st, the USSR declared war on Germany AND Poland. So, the Axis (me) and the Allies formed an alliance, and so you saw French Char B1s and British A13s using the Autoban on the way to the USSR, while German PzIVs went through cheering Polish villages on the way to defeat the Soviets. That was one of the funnest games of it I ever played.



fbastos -> RE: Clarification of future development plans (12/2/2004 10:30:32 PM)

I gotta give, all programs have bugs.

Even Pacman had an infamous bug.

Do you guys know what was that bug? You had to work really hard to see it... :)

F.



Mr.Frag -> RE: Clarification of future development plans (12/2/2004 10:35:18 PM)

quote:

Oooh - do I detect a trace of bitterness?


Nope, no bitterness, but they did loose me as a customer ... i very much doubt that HoI2 will ever make it into my shopping cart as it seems to be the way they want to run their shop.

I understand that bugs happen very well. I do not lay blame for bugs on the developer. To do so is silly.

It is the publisher that forces the developer to cut the threads and stop offering fixes.

It's just not the way to retain a loyal customer base in my eyes.

The fact that the poor dev is supporting EU2 under the table tells the story better then I can. Why should he be doing it under the table? [:D]



Knavey -> RE: Clarification of future development plans (12/2/2004 10:49:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fbastos

I gotta give, all programs have bugs.

Even Pacman had an infamous bug.

Do you guys know what was that bug? You had to work really hard to see it... :)

F.


You mean this one?

Pac Man Cheats



BlackVoid -> RE: Clarification of future development plans (12/2/2004 10:50:09 PM)

As a fellow developer I can only agree with Joel.

In any program, any new feature after a certain point of complexity is not likely to introduce bugs, it will SURELY do so.
The complexity and size of this game is truly amazing, it is a major achievement that it works at all.
I hope we will see some patches that tweak and fix things, because frankly, this is about the ONLY game that I have interest in. This is THE strategy game. No other game allows you to have strategic freedom of this magnitude.



dtravel -> RE: Clarification of future development plans (12/2/2004 10:54:22 PM)

Did you know, Mr.Frag, that Paradox is no longer using Strategy First as their distributor?



Mr.Frag -> RE: Clarification of future development plans (12/2/2004 11:03:20 PM)

quote:

Did you know, Mr.Frag, that Paradox is no longer using Strategy First as their distributor?


Yep, I know ... we'll see how their forum reads with HoI2 comes out ...



dtravel -> RE: Clarification of future development plans (12/2/2004 11:09:02 PM)

BTW, welcome back. How did the job go?



pasternakski -> RE: Clarification of future development plans (12/3/2004 2:27:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlackVoid

As a fellow developer I can only agree with Joel.

"Fellows" with professional integrity ordinarily allow their "fellows" to identify them as such.



Ron Saueracker -> RE: Clarification of future development plans (12/3/2004 2:47:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sprior

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

ready to fire a full salvo of duds, baby!!!



I bet you say that to all the girls!


Usually say "Ooops, sorry!"[;)]



siRkid -> RE: Clarification of future development plans (12/3/2004 5:08:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pad152

Joel

It's very sad to hear there is no future for UV/Witp type games.
I only own two Matrix products (UV and Witp) and I think Matrix is given up on Witp way to soon.


I don't think he ment that these types of games are dead just the engine used to create them.



CMDRMCTOAST -> RE: Clarification of future development plans (12/3/2004 7:20:06 AM)

Are we hinting at a new and improved robust type game engine in the future.[&o]



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