Strike back at Kuantan? (Full Version)

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Gen.Hoepner -> Strike back at Kuantan? (12/8/2004 1:27:40 PM)

Do you think it is wise to send, playing as the allies, at the first or second turn, a surface combat TF with repulse in it to strike the IJA landind TFs at Kotha baru or Kuantan?
I know that i will almost loose those ships due to the Nells stationed at saigon, but i probably would be able to smash a good number of Jap APs and kill most of the landing tropps. Do you think it worths the price of the singapore naval forces? Or it's better to send them to india as soon as i can?
Will the early engagement with the jap. naval forces be a disaster, or it could slow down the invasion of Malaya and so the the conquest of Singapore?



Ron Saueracker -> RE: Strike back at Kuantan? (12/8/2004 1:38:48 PM)

I have never once had a good enough result using surface combat TFs vs enemy convoy TFs or enemy surface combat TFs for that matter to risk PoW and Repulse off Malaya. (even with ver 1.30) To me it's not worth the ships if you only sink a few APs, the remainder withdraw a hex and are back at it next turn. And because blazing wrecks don't lose their cargo and suffer no penalty unloading, it is better to use the bombers at your disposal. Further, the Japanese usually have a division of BBs and another division of CAs covering the landing so what's the point? Save Force Z for later when the IJ player is invading sooo much that he can't cover everything vs a Force Z foray whose wherabouts are most likely a mystery to him.



Gen.Hoepner -> RE: Strike back at Kuantan? (12/8/2004 1:43:57 PM)

thanks ron. So you suggest to move force Z out out of Malaya to India?
BTW, could force Z stand against a Jap BB division?



tanker4145 -> RE: Strike back at Kuantan? (12/8/2004 3:30:24 PM)

I suggest moving force Z to a safer base in DEI with lots of CAP. They can then be used to strike at other invasions without less support. Preferably ones where they can sneak in at night, kill some ships, and retire to a base safely. I'm also thinking they may be more useful operating out of Australia then India later on, but not sure yet.



Ron Saueracker -> RE: Strike back at Kuantan? (12/8/2004 4:13:30 PM)

I'm not so sure that India needs anymore ships caught in the bottleneck up there. If KB comes calling early before ya have adequate fighter cover for your bases and LRCAP needs there is no where to run. The RN CVs are just not up to the task. I had one game where about 4 IJN heavyCVs came up near Panji where I had my CVs 1 hex out and they chewed up the KB strikes but it was mid 42 and was a Lemurs variant (Hurricane IIBs). If that had failed, itwould have been a black day/week/month? for the RN.

Anyway, fast big boys like PoW and Repulse are better employed elsewhere than the Bay of Bengal. Can't really do much there with all that IJN LBA.



Andy Mac -> RE: Strike back at Kuantan? (12/8/2004 5:12:44 PM)

I find that POW especially is the single best AA escort for my US CV Groups in the early going as its the fastest most powerfull BB the Allies have in the early war period so I tend to use her in that capacity and that Repulse if escorted by CA's/ CL's and DD's can make a good raider around Java/Borneo/Timor/New Guinea.

Andy



Ron Saueracker -> RE: Strike back at Kuantan? (12/8/2004 5:26:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

I find that POW especially is the single best AA escort for my US CV Groups in the early going as its the fastest most powerfull BB the Allies have in the early war period so I tend to use her in that capacity and that Repulse if escorted by CA's/ CL's and DD's can make a good raider around Java/Borneo/Timor/New Guinea.

Andy


I suppose it's a bit of a stretch doing that as the Brits were leary about loaning their CVs to another theatre, but the POW and Repulse are good escorts for the USN CVs because of their ability to draw fire and travel at a decent clip. If one has two or three CV TFs of one or two CVs in each, a BB alongside tends to improve the CV survivability.

This being the case, if my USN CVs are defending against an IJN KB led advance, I see nothing wrong with adding a couple of prewar USN BBs in with them. Slower speed does not mean much when you are standing tall and not simply raiding.

Operating the three Illustrious/Indomitables as a CAP/ASW/SEARCH TF along with USN CVs also works nicely. Sea Hurricanes and even Fulmars with their heavy gun batteries, when teamed with 50% Wildcat CAP do well enough in chopping down Vals and Kates. KB no longer a problem. Whatever makes it through often target the RN TF and with three armoured CVs, POW and Repulse, Van Heemskerk and some J L and K class DDs,the flak and armour do the rest.



madflava13 -> RE: Strike back at Kuantan? (12/8/2004 5:30:10 PM)

Keep POW and Repulse in Northern Oz once you retreat from the DEI - it'll force the IJN to counter with heavies and bombers of their own. You can raid bases and attack convoys in the DEI if they don't. The "fleet in being" concept, if you will. Otherwise all those IJN forces can be sent to the Pacific where they'll give you a bigger headache.



moses -> RE: Strike back at Kuantan? (12/8/2004 5:30:38 PM)

Having those battleships centralized in the DEI keeps the JP player honest. Its easy to get lazy and in a hurry as Japan. After a few weeks you find yourself launching invasions with very light surface support. After all you only have so many BB's as Japan. Thats when the british battleships and the Dutch navy can be very dangerous.

If you lose your fleet early it allows Japan to operate much more freely and with much less risk.



Xargun -> RE: Strike back at Kuantan? (12/8/2004 6:16:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: moses

Having those battleships centralized in the DEI keeps the JP player honest. Its easy to get lazy and in a hurry as Japan. After a few weeks you find yourself launching invasions with very light surface support. After all you only have so many BB's as Japan. Thats when the british battleships and the Dutch navy can be very dangerous.

If you lose your fleet early it allows Japan to operate much more freely and with much less risk.


I agree.. Send Force Z south into the DEI and Oz.. Moving it north to India means you're gonna leave it in port for the first 3 months or so of the war and then you have to think why did I bother saving it ? By moving it into the DEI and Oz you can actually use it as soon as you want... Bombard some jap bases that are low on airplanes - Truk and Palau early on - depending on where the jap player moves his planes.

In my PBEM the mere thought of Force Z being loose in the DEI has kept my invasions to the first few days and not much more after that - except where I had massive air power or enough ships for adequate cover.. Think of force Z kinda like the US CVs in the first 6 months of the war - more of an intimidation factor... if Japan doesn't know where they are he has to be careful..

Xargun



Ron Saueracker -> RE: Strike back at Kuantan? (12/8/2004 6:48:58 PM)

Why does everyone have to bombard everything? [&:] Going after Truk and Palau??? May as well lose them off Malaya if you are just gonna throw the ships and men away. (How many VPs would 1000 sailors be if army squads? 100 points? Too bad crews were not modelled just for the VP restraint factor) Anyway, bombarding for no gain is just unsound advice.[8D]



madflava13 -> RE: Strike back at Kuantan? (12/8/2004 7:09:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Why does everyone have to bombard everything? [&:] Going after Truk and Palau??? May as well lose them off Malaya if you are just gonna throw the ships and men away. (How many VPs would 1000 sailors be if army squads? 100 points? Too bad crews were not modelled just for the VP restraint factor) Anyway, bombarding for no gain is just unsound advice.[8D]


I concur. Bombarding Kendari or Timor is one thing, and that is still risky if the Japanese player has moved Betties in. Don't go risking those ships unless you absolutely have to - and I can't really think of something that important. Even an invasion of Darwin might not be worth risking them, unless there's no IJN CVs about. Just bide your time... Being impatient as the Allies = Auto-Victory for Japan in 1943.



moses -> RE: Strike back at Kuantan? (12/8/2004 7:32:31 PM)

There is an element of bluff to the use of allied naval powere early on. You would rather not risk your limited assets but if Japan is launching poorly supported invasions and you fail to extract a price then what is the point of your navy.

If I see that Japan is properly supporting its attacks then I just keep my ships in a safe port. When the Jap player starts to get careless then its time to consider taking a risk.



Ron Saueracker -> RE: Strike back at Kuantan? (12/9/2004 5:39:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: moses

There is an element of bluff to the use of allied naval powere early on. You would rather not risk your limited assets but if Japan is launching poorly supported invasions and you fail to extract a price then what is the point of your navy.

If I see that Japan is properly supporting its attacks then I just keep my ships in a safe port. When the Jap player starts to get careless then its time to consider taking a risk.


Exactly! Not too many people get away without a nose bleed if I'm playing as Allies and my opponent uses unescorted invasion fleets. Mind you, if they use enough of them, you can't hit them all. But bombarding bases for no rational reason is inviting disaster and terribly wasteful. Considering the very generous range given to torp range for IJN LBA and the ability to shuttle aircraft around the Pacific and attacking from the new base in the same daylight phase it is suicide.



JohnK -> RE: Strike back at Kuantan? (12/9/2004 3:46:00 PM)

In an ideal universe there would be some sort of massive PP penalty if Force Z didn't make an attempt to hit Japanese invasion forces heading for Malaya.

The idea of them retreating from Singapore before they're even damaged or made one attempt to hit the invasion forces is unthinkable.

Problem with PPs is there aren't restrictions with moving naval forces....withdrawing Force Z from Singapore, in reality, would be a bigger PP cost than moving the Australian brigades out.

Thus I've found myself compelled to make at least one interception attempt with them when I've played :-)



moses -> RE: Strike back at Kuantan? (12/9/2004 6:01:10 PM)

In a really ideal universe we would not know the likely course of the war in advance.

That the British did not retreat their BB's was certainly in part political. But mostly they really believed that their force would be successful. In hindsight the BB's had no chance. But at the time the superiority of aircraft over BB's was not so clear. It was not so clear that the JP LBA would be so effective at coordinating their attacks. It was not so clear that the British air support would be so ineffective (near non-existant).

It works both ways. Japan had to assume at the start that the Singapore campaign would be much longer and more difficult. Had to at least plan for the possibility that the PH strike would be far less effective then it was. Had to assume that the bombers would fly at least some strikes out of the PI. Had to assume that the americans would be smart enough to get thier aircraft off the runways and fight at least a little bit.

All these things are known to be false in the game from the start and so JP players can accelerate their plans far beyond what the Japanese would have ever dared.

So I don't feel guilty saving my poor British BB's for a least a few weeks.



BlackVoid -> RE: Strike back at Kuantan? (12/9/2004 8:55:31 PM)

Save them???
How the hell would you save them against a japanese player in PBEM who does not want you to save them? For Japan it is very important to sink these ships ASAP.

Japan also has a high chance of achieving this goal by simply taking Kuching on the first day then basing Betties there and in Malaya. This closes the door to the south and to the north as well.

If Japan goes after force Z, your chances are very small that you can escape.

In my PBEM, I sank POW on the first day and heavily damaged Repulse as well. Japan cannot afford to spare the most capable ships (apart from CVs) in the theatre. It is more important to hit these 2 ships than ravaging the old, good-for-nothing battleships in PH.

(As for PH being a success - I really don't think so in retrospect. I also believe that hitting PH is a strategic mistake in WITP - many pilots lost and you sink obselete ships. The only good thing is that you get points for them... )



BlackVoid -> RE: Strike back at Kuantan? (12/9/2004 9:11:10 PM)

Almost forgot about the real topic.

Striking back is risky, simply because (correct me if I am wrong) the air phase of the turn comes before the surface combat check. There is no night phase on the first day.

This means that force Z will be hammered during the day, then the remnants will most likely retire. Try it a few times in head to head with all japanese long range bombers set to naval attack and see what happens.
On the other hand, if your opponent puts all his bombers to attack Singapore AF and port, then you may be able to fight the IJN BBs and at least heavily damage them. This would be a great success, even if you lose force Z in the process. My idea would be to set them to max react range and send them to the eastern coast of Malaya.



Ron Saueracker -> RE: Strike back at Kuantan? (12/9/2004 9:29:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlackVoid

Save them???
How the hell would you save them against a japanese player in PBEM who does not want you to save them? For Japan it is very important to sink these ships ASAP.

Japan also has a high chance of achieving this goal by simply taking Kuching on the first day then basing Betties there and in Malaya. This closes the door to the south and to the north as well.

If Japan goes after force Z, your chances are very small that you can escape.

In my PBEM, I sank POW on the first day and heavily damaged Repulse as well. Japan cannot afford to spare the most capable ships (apart from CVs) in the theatre. It is more important to hit these 2 ships than ravaging the old, good-for-nothing battleships in PH.

(As for PH being a success - I really don't think so in retrospect. I also believe that hitting PH is a strategic mistake in WITP - many pilots lost and you sink obselete ships. The only good thing is that you get points for them... )


Never lost them yet! LostPOW in a BS surfacecombat but thatnot really count as Idid not need to accept it. I neverget into largesurface battles if I can help it. Thesmaller force seems to do better.



dereck -> RE: Strike back at Kuantan? (12/10/2004 4:53:12 PM)

This is a question along the lines of this thread ...

Some people have mentioned sending the British ships to Australia or the Dutch East Indies instead of back to India. In my case it doesn't matter (I'm still playing my first game and I was too new to set the home port of the ships to the target base and they -- repeatedly -- never got more than a day out of Singapore before they were sunk or turned back).

But my question is, if you do send the British ships to Australia or DEI what do you do if one month you have to withdraw a class of ship that -- for whatever reason -- you don't have in India BUT you did move to Australia or DEI?

The only reason I moved all my British ships back to Ceylon was because I wanted the British fleet close for the withdrawal factor and didn't want a ship I would have to withdraw too far away from Karachi to withdraw it in time.



JohnK -> RE: Strike back at Kuantan? (12/10/2004 5:04:19 PM)

People are talking about sending the PoW and Repulse to Australia or the DEI.

You should never have to send either of those two ships back to England, and should never want to.

You'll generally have an R class BB to send back (that you've kept in Ceylon) instead.



Ron Saueracker -> RE: Strike back at Kuantan? (12/10/2004 5:54:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnK

People are talking about sending the PoW and Repulse to Australia or the DEI.

You should never have to send either of those two ships back to England, and should never want to.

You'll generally have an R class BB to send back (that you've kept in Ceylon) instead.


Yep. R class BB and C/D class cruisers are basically obsolete withdrawl material.



Ron Saueracker -> RE: Strike back at Kuantan? (12/10/2004 5:57:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnK

In an ideal universe there would be some sort of massive PP penalty if Force Z didn't make an attempt to hit Japanese invasion forces heading for Malaya.

The idea of them retreating from Singapore before they're even damaged or made one attempt to hit the invasion forces is unthinkable.

Problem with PPs is there aren't restrictions with moving naval forces....withdrawing Force Z from Singapore, in reality, would be a bigger PP cost than moving the Australian brigades out.

Thus I've found myself compelled to make at least one interception attempt with them when I've played :-)


If this was the case, how big should the PP penalty be for Jap player not bombing PH, and using the overly generous first move StarTrek Transpoter system?



madflava13 -> RE: Strike back at Kuantan? (12/10/2004 6:37:24 PM)

If you had ships in Oz that you did need to withdraw, you could simply send them to India. You have a month's warning of withdrawals, so you would have plenty of time to get a ship back. That is assuming the IJN doesn't sink it on the way... hehe.



bradfordkay -> RE: Strike back at Kuantan? (12/11/2004 6:50:09 AM)

In my games (against the AI) I have always sent force Z up to Khota Bahru, since that is what Churchill wanted me to do. One move I always make is to transfer a squadron or two of Buffaloes up to Kuantan and set them on LRCAP over Force Z. This has been enough to keep the Nells at bay for the main part. In one game Force Z got a magazine hit on the Kongo, so a sunk BB was a good response. The worst damage I have ever received from the AI in this has been two torpedo hits on the POW, but she managed to make it back to Singapore for repairs.

In every game, they caused the battleships and cruisers covering the Khota Bahru landings to withdraw (for more ammo or repair?), leaving the transports unprotected so that my LBA has been able to cause a significant amount of damage to those transports. In the one game where I held Force Z back, the AA on those BBs and CAs chewed my LBA to bits. I think that the risk is worth it, based on my results. Note, this might not work against a human opponent. Then again, it might.



Ron Saueracker -> RE: Strike back at Kuantan? (12/11/2004 7:29:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay
Note, this might not work against a human opponent. Then again, it might.


Exactly! In a PBEM game going, I think Churchill may have allowed a bit of discretion in this situation. Massive landing at Kuantan covered by, get this...2xNagato, 2xFuso, 2xHyuga, 4xKongo and approx 6xCA + escorts. Message from opponent..."a little disappointed that Force Z did not come out to play!"[:D] Hmmmm...yeah...right![8D]



bradfordkay -> RE: Strike back at Kuantan? (12/11/2004 7:46:46 AM)

Discretion IS the better part of valour, after all!



2ndACR -> RE: Strike back at Kuantan? (12/11/2004 8:30:35 AM)

Wimp. Broke my heart, I even sent you an engraved invitation to the party.

You pick the place and I will be there. I will even wait for those old BB's from PH to arrive before we start the dance. Wondering what you are doing around Baker island with a CV though. Mighty dangerous place with KB an the hunt.



Ron Saueracker -> RE: Strike back at Kuantan? (12/11/2004 10:20:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

Wimp. Broke my heart, I even sent you an engraved invitation to the party.

You pick the place and I will be there. I will even wait for those old BB's from PH to arrive before we start the dance. Wondering what you are doing around Baker island with a CV though. Mighty dangerous place with KB an the hunt.


That sub would have been sunk without the ASW tweaks we are using. KB out of juice yet?[;)]



2ndACR -> RE: Strike back at Kuantan? (12/11/2004 11:24:51 AM)

KB has lots of juice still. Thanks for your concern.



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