Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast (Full Version)

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stewart_king -> Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast (12/9/2004 3:36:48 AM)

I started a CG as the Allies recently. I was gratified when the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor resulted in no sinkings. Four BB's were pretty shot up. Two were about 60-80 flotation damage, could only make about 3 knots, and so I left them in Pearl. The other two (Arizona and Nevada) were about 50-60 flt damage, could make 10-11 knots, and so I gave them a couple of DD's as escort and sent them off to San Fran to get fixed up. About a week later, I get messages that first one, then the other, sank while underway. Looking at the sunk ships database, they are listed as having been sunk by AP bombs, that is, no sub attacks or anything like that. Anybody have any idea why they would suddenly take a turn for the worse? Weather a possible factor? I didn't notice any bad weather but it is December.

Stewart King



Tankerace -> RE: Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast (12/9/2004 3:45:18 AM)

If you have ANY ship over 30 flt damage, don't move it. What happened is since you didn't leave them in port, but sent them out half filled with water, their flooding increased, until they sank. If you had left them at Pearl, they would have survived.

It says AP bomb, because that was the last weapon to strike the ship. So, while underway, it flooded out and sank, and gave the credit to the last weapon to hit the ship.

My advice? Next time, leave your ships at Pearl until ALL the Flt damage is repaired, and then send them to SF. Never send a ship to sea with heavy flt damage, especially if it can't do more than 15 knots, unless you absolutely have to.

If flooding is under 30, you can chance it (I wouldn't), but flooding above 50, at sea, will usually increase. And if the ship is slow, and can't make port, it will sink.



Halsey -> RE: Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast (12/9/2004 3:45:24 AM)

Bottom line: Never try to move ships that have greater than 35 flotation any long distance. As for the PH ships, I wouldn't move them till it was at 0. Too many IJN subs lurking around.



doktorblood -> RE: Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast (12/9/2004 9:02:25 AM)

The only ships I've seen with red flood damage that didn't get worse while underway are subs.

I once had a sub with 89 flood damage that I figured was a goner ... ordered it back to port anyway and a month later it not only made it back, but had healed all of it's flooding and most of it's sys damage as well!



Ron Saueracker -> RE: Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast (12/9/2004 9:38:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stewart_king

I started a CG as the Allies recently. I was gratified when the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor resulted in no sinkings. Four BB's were pretty shot up. Two were about 60-80 flotation damage, could only make about 3 knots, and so I left them in Pearl. The other two (Arizona and Nevada) were about 50-60 flt damage, could make 10-11 knots, and so I gave them a couple of DD's as escort and sent them off to San Fran to get fixed up. About a week later, I get messages that first one, then the other, sank while underway. Looking at the sunk ships database, they are listed as having been sunk by AP bombs, that is, no sub attacks or anything like that. Anybody have any idea why they would suddenly take a turn for the worse? Weather a possible factor? I didn't notice any bad weather but it is December.

Stewart King


Sending ships out with flood damage is a major booboo. Not only does it risk the ships, but they are slower and the time you think you may save sending them to the coast early will actually result in longer repair travel times as leaving them in port until they are zeroed which gives them max speed.



stewart_king -> RE: Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast (12/11/2004 12:20:32 AM)

Thanks!

It would be nice if there was some sort of warning for newbies when you try to do this. "You know, Admiral King, if you order us to sail we will but we're not going to make it to San Fran. Why don't you leave us in Pearl until we get the flooding stopped."

Any cheat codes to fix this up?

Stewart



Bodhi -> RE: Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast (12/11/2004 12:44:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stewart_king
Any cheat codes to fix this up?


Cheat codes, what are they? [:D]



madflava13 -> RE: Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast (12/11/2004 1:20:03 AM)

Unfortunately the only warning out there is the manual and common sense. Don't sweat it too much - i've made similar mistakes and I've been playing a lot longer than you have. There's a lot of info to remember, so I suggest making checklists - something to look over before clicking end turn, just to make sure you got everything.

A good rule of thumb is this: If the ship's got a hole in it now, don't sail it anywhere.



dtravel -> RE: Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast (12/11/2004 4:37:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: madflava13

Unfortunately the only warning out there is the manual and common sense.


Which with this manual, means the only warning is the player's common sense. But that only works if the player is given some basic understanding of the game's mechanics, which would normally be gained from the manual.



Bodhi -> RE: Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast (12/11/2004 7:11:44 AM)

Are you saying that the manual could be improved? If so, I'd agree with you, but when ever I mention it the usual response is "but it's over 200 pages long", as if size was all that matters.[;)]



bradfordkay -> RE: Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast (12/11/2004 7:20:25 AM)

Maybe we should make it a community project to rewrite the manual?

Edit: this is not a jab at the manual, which I thought was well done. It's just that there is so much scope to this game that we are all still learning. I think that after we've all played the game for awhile, we could expand on the manual with both extra information on the rules and hot tips for newbies.



pasternakski -> RE: Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast (12/11/2004 7:28:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Maybe we should make it a community project to rewrite the manual?


This is what's usually wrong with manuals in the first place.

A good editor's time will cost you upward of $150 per hour. A community effort generally winds up satisfying no one. The first thing that will happen is the old "I think the game should do this" debates will break out.

This manual's biggest problem is that it was written by those who don't know how to write manuals. Don't turn the task over to more people who suffer from the same deficiency.



dtravel -> RE: Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast (12/11/2004 11:16:19 AM)

Any effort to re-write the manual would fail because Matrix/2by3 would not be willing to release enough information about the game mechanics to the players to allow them to write a decent manual.

Bah Humbug!!! [:@]



Mr.Frag -> RE: Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast (12/11/2004 7:57:39 PM)

quote:

Any cheat codes to fix this up?


As in to unsink the ship or stop it from sinking in the first place? lol

The only cheat in WitP is your ability to change options after the game has started in non-PBEM games and your ability to load an old save and do something differently. [;)]



Admiral DadMan -> RE: Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast (12/11/2004 10:21:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace
It says AP bomb, because that was the last weapon to strike the ship. So, while underway, it flooded out and sank, and gave the credit to the last weapon to hit the ship.

I thought it was the largest weapon to hit, not the last...



bradfordkay -> RE: Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast (12/12/2004 7:39:55 AM)

I think that it is neither. I've had ships hit earlier with 500lb bombs that were subsequently (a day or two later) hit with 18" torpedoes that ended up listing the 500 pounders as the cause of the sinking. Maybe it's the hit that causes the mortal damage? Though how that is calculated I have no real idea...



rtrapasso -> RE: Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast (12/12/2004 10:22:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

I think that it is neither. I've had ships hit earlier with 500lb bombs that were subsequently (a day or two later) hit with 18" torpedoes that ended up listing the 500 pounders as the cause of the sinking. Maybe it's the hit that causes the mortal damage? Though how that is calculated I have no real idea...


Probably the game calculates the total amount of damage caused by individual weapons (damage effect x random die roll)...



stewart_king -> RE: Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast (12/14/2004 12:38:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel

Any effort to re-write the manual would fail because Matrix/2by3 would not be willing to release enough information about the game mechanics to the players to allow them to write a decent manual.

Bah Humbug!!! [:@]


Why not? I'd think that a community of players who are well-informed about the game mechanics is a very good resource. Or maybe I'm just spoiled by playing Paradox games a lot...but players could contribute a lot to making the game better, creating mods, and such that would then help sell more games and make the next version/next game better.

Stewart



madflava13 -> RE: Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast (12/14/2004 6:45:12 AM)

I feel like I have a pretty good understanding of the game mechanics... and all the info you guys are talking about wanting is available. Go to spooky's site and grab some of the FAQs, Hints, etc... it's all there I think.



rhondabrwn -> Manual Updates (12/14/2004 8:52:15 AM)

What might be very helpful would be for some of our WiTP experts to simply annotate the current manual with changes and corrections resulting from the patches i.e. a thorough integration of patch release notes into the manual. My head spins when I try to even contemplate all of the changes and bug fixes that get discussed here in the forums!

Heck, I don't need the manual rewritten... just insert "Update" boxes into the current manual in appropriate places.

Another option would be to open the manual in Adobe Acrobat Professional )(if you have it) and insert text boxes and arrows to indicate changes or modifications. Along the same line, you can even highlight important text.

If I really knew the game that intimately, I would volunteer to do it!

However, if someone wants to send me the additions, I have Acrobat Professional and could add the notes......



BraveHome -> RE: Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast (12/16/2004 1:08:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stewart_king

I started a CG as the Allies recently. I was gratified when the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor resulted in no sinkings. ....
Stewart King


As an aside, in all the one day PH attacks I've simulated I've never been able to recreate the number of BB losses inflicted as happened in R/L.

Are there 'standard'/recommended changes to the initial PH CV attack used to better achieve the historical results?

Thanks!



Ron Saueracker -> RE: Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast (12/16/2004 4:16:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BraveHome

quote:

ORIGINAL: stewart_king

I started a CG as the Allies recently. I was gratified when the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor resulted in no sinkings. ....
Stewart King


As an aside, in all the one day PH attacks I've simulated I've never been able to recreate the number of BB losses inflicted as happened in R/L.

Are there 'standard'/recommended changes to the initial PH CV attack used to better achieve the historical results?

Thanks!


It's a crap shoot. Try Pry's scenario 16 which starts Dec 8/41



madflava13 -> RE: Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast (12/16/2004 4:39:35 AM)

Also keep in mind that SYS of 90+ is the equivalent of being "sunk" in the shallow water of PH.



Feinder -> RE: Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast (12/16/2004 5:55:08 AM)

Only 1 BB was sunk, never to be raised (historically), the Arizona. Even the Oklahoma, after it was raised, there was -brief- discussion to to refit her. Due to the time and cost. and her slow speed, it was deemed not worth it, so she was scrappped.

-F-



BraveHome -> RE: Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast (12/16/2004 6:10:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker


It's a crap shoot. Try Pry's scenario 16 which starts Dec 8/41

Ah! I thought it was just a crappy shoot (by me [:D]).

I was also thinking that (Intel being what it is, or isn't) I might not have been informed of the 'true' results.

I may go for Pry's after I've mastered ([8|]) Scenario 15. I've only tried 1 PBEM so far, and it's been a humbling experience (mainly from a logistics point of view).

Thanks!



BraveHome -> RE: Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast (12/16/2004 6:34:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Only 1 BB was sunk, never to be raised (historically), the Arizona. Even the Oklahoma, after it was raised, there was -brief- discussion to to refit her. Due to the time and cost. and her slow speed, it was deemed not worth it, so she was scrappped.

-F-


I guess sunk is a relative term. In WitP terminology, it means sunk/lost. In the historical record, sunk ships can be raised and refitted.

Curious how many veteran Japanese players stick around a 2nd day to effect more 'WitP' sinkings....



tsimmonds -> RE: Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast (12/16/2004 6:39:12 AM)

quote:

Curious how many veteran Japanese players stick around a 2nd day to effect more 'WitP' sinkings....


What's so curious about it? Having come so far and caused so much damage on the first day, it only makes sense to hit PH again when it is at its weakest....



Ron Saueracker -> RE: Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast (12/16/2004 9:07:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Only 1 BB was sunk, never to be raised (historically), the Arizona. Even the Oklahoma, after it was raised, there was -brief- discussion to to refit her. Due to the time and cost. and her slow speed, it was deemed not worth it, so she was scrappped.

-F-


Oklahoma actually foundered on the way.



BraveHome -> RE: Damaged BB's sink en route to West Coast (12/16/2004 2:45:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

What's so curious about it? Having come so far and caused so much damage on the first day, it only makes sense to hit PH again when it is at its weakest....


That seemed reasonable to me too, but I had to balance out the potential gains against the sure losses of more of my best (and limited) pilots in the better prepared 2nd day strikes. So (in my first PBEM) I played it 'historical'. I may choose otherwise in my next...[;)]

[image]local://upfiles/14589/Vt573762494.jpg[/image]



mogami -> manual (12/21/2004 12:38:54 AM)

Hi, The manual says "Damaged ships check every turn for more damage. The amount depends on current damage and whether a ship is in port or not" (along with Nationality,crew and other factors)



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