IJN Torpedo Bombers Overrated (Full Version)

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spence -> IJN Torpedo Bombers Overrated (12/16/2004 9:51:53 PM)

Probably stir up a bigger furball if I posted this on the WiTP forum but since I haven't played WiTP I just have to settle for doing it here.

The torpedo armed B5Ns (40 of em I believe) of the Kido Butai managed to sink 4 old US BBs at Pearl Harbor and damaged another 3-4 ships. None of the ships were underway when torpedoed nor is it likely that all their AA guns were manned during any of the torpedo armed Kates' attack runs.

Subsequent to Pearl Harbor I can find mention in a wide range of history texts of only 7 more torpedo hits being scored by B5Ns up to the end of 1942: 2 hits each on Lexington and Yorktown and 3 on Hornet (though in fact one was scored after the ship had been abandoned and was dead in the water). In this game I'd say 7 hits is pretty close to the average number of torpedo hits scored by a typical IJN 2 carrier strike package.

The US had a lousy torpedo bomber to begin the war but by several accounts they scored 7 torpedo hits on the Shoho. Even if one manages to close on an IJN TF closely enough to launch torpedo armed TBDs getting 1hit/sqdrn is about the best you can hope for. Perhaps the aerial torpedo suffered from some of the same foibles as the sub/destroyer launched ones so maybe this is repesentative of US torpedoes early on. As best as I can determine US carrier TBFs scored 1-3 hits prior to the end of 1942. One for sure on RYUJO, 1 I think on HIEI off G-canal, and possibly one on KINUGASA or ISUZU on 14 Nov 42 as they ran up the slot. HIEI was in tough shape when the TBFs went after her having lost her steering and it may have been a Marine TBF that scored the hit.

Now for the much vaunted Bettys/Nells. They sank the Prince of Wales and Repulse in December.........and after that???? They set afire the AP George F Elliott and crippled the USS Jarvis off G-canal in August 42. They sank the USS Chicago in Jan/Feb 43 in a nighttime torpedo attack. Has anyone got any hard data on what other torpedo attacks they even made or made successfully? Reading about the operations of ABDA ships in the DEI I haven't found any instances where "the twin-engine bombers" used torpedoes but the attacking bombers mentioned are not specified as either IJN or IJA. I beleieve that twin engine bombers attacked Enterprise after her raid in the Gilberts but I believe they attacked with bombs. When Lexington was attacked in Feb in the Solomon Sea I'm almost certain Nells or Bettys were involved but I haven't found an account which specifies what load out they had - just that they got creamed by CAP/flak.

IMHO the accuracy of the IJN aerial torpedo attacks in UV is grossly overrated (and that of the USN underrated). But I have an open mind and would welcome any DATA presented which would help to overcome my Allied Fanboy prejudices.[:D]



anarchyintheuk -> RE: IJN Torpedo Bombers Overrated (12/17/2004 1:14:04 AM)

Allied fanboy here too. The IJN "first team" torpedo bombers (akagi, kaga, hiryu and soryu) never launched a strike in a CV battle except for hiryu's partial torpedo squadron attack on yorktown. If I remember correctly they were something like 2 out of 10. Pretty good shooting. In UV's combat system, as soon as there is a hit (bomb or torpedo, the damage is added immediately which slows down the ship immediately, whereas in RL a ship would slowly lose it speed gradually. Torps do significant damage and the evasion value of a ship is very important in avoiding torp hits. As soon as one hits, the likelihood of another hit jumps dramatically. That's why hits, whether surface or aerial, seem to cluster on a few ships. JMO.

The Betties seem overpowered in UV because of the way players use them. I don't know that the IJN ever based 200+ Betties at Rabaul, but as an IJN player that's exactly what I do. There really wasn't much historical opportunity for the offensive deployment of the Betties. The USN didn't operate often in range of IJN/IJA land based areas until after '42. By that time the USN had better cap control, fighters, AA, etc. and the IJN/IJA pilots had decreased in skill level. Ahistoric use/opportunity equals ahistoric results.



crsutton -> RE: IJN Torpedo Bombers Overrated (12/17/2004 7:45:44 PM)

Of course they are. Allied heavies are way too strong. Naval bombardment is too easy. The zero is too dominant over the wildcat, and the corsair is just plain obscene. My point is that it is still a great game and that the developers have already made it clear that they are not going to make any significant changes to UV.

Gonna, just have to live with it. But it is still a great game.[;)]



Blitzer -> RE: IJN Torpedo Bombers Overrated (12/20/2004 7:44:28 AM)

These are very good points, both historically and in terms of gameplay. In accordance with what you've explained however, #17 and #19 employ far more Japanese carrier air than Nagumo did either at Midway or in the Bay of Bengal. In these cases I would expect that multiple torpedo hits with such a concentrated force could be achieved. Nevertheless your observations about gradual rather than instantaneous reduction in vessel maneuverability are exactly right. This issue is a problem with the game that - as crsutton indicated - will not be remedied.

Instead plyers must simply become used to the new realities of the game and work with/around them.

In any instance, Kates were extremely deadly and although they suffered horrendous losses, even one or two hits could immobilize the largest enemy vessel, so sacrificing an entire airgroup to sink an enemy flatttop is not unreasonable. There is no way around this underlying fact.

When the Hornet for example in a very similar situation was hit, it became a floating target and suffered accordingly. No big ship could have withstood the damage she absorbed. And that was without the CVs lost at Midway.

At Rennell Island the story was a bit different for three reasons:

1.) The Betties attacked at night - a tactic they should have explored much sooner than this, especially considering the marked Japanese superiority in pyrotechnics.

2.) The Japanese aircraft experienced very heavy losses nonetheless.

3.) Allied vessels were idiotically not deployed into an anti-aircraft formation.



Nordic Twilight -> RE: IJN Torpedo Bombers Overrated (1/6/2005 3:41:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Of course they are. Allied heavies are way too strong. Naval bombardment is too easy. The zero is too dominant over the wildcat, and the corsair is just plain obscene. My point is that it is still a great game and that the developers have already made it clear that they are not going to make any significant changes to UV.

Gonna, just have to live with it. But it is still a great game.[;)]


You are SO right!!!!![:D]



Reg -> RE: IJN Torpedo Bombers Overrated (1/7/2005 7:06:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: spence


Now for the much vaunted Bettys/Nells. They sank the Prince of Wales and Repulse in December.........and after that???? They set afire the AP George F Elliott and crippled the USS Jarvis off G-canal in August 42. They sank the USS Chicago in Jan/Feb 43 in a nighttime torpedo attack. Has anyone got any hard data on what other torpedo attacks they even made or made successfully?


Task Group 17.3 at 3pm on 7th May 1942 by 25th Air Flotilla (12?? x G3M Nells) during the Batle of Coral Sea. Imperial War Museum negatives HU56166 and HU56167 show this attack. (Shame these pictures aren't available on line in their photographic database). 5 aircraft claimed shot down with no torpedo hits.



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