Possible Northrop Torpedo headed Matrix's Way? (Full Version)

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kverdon -> Possible Northrop Torpedo headed Matrix's Way? (12/19/2004 12:54:40 PM)

There is a situation developing in the Flight Sim world that could have far reaching ramifications including WITP. In a nutshell, Northrop Corp who ownes the rights to Grumman/Vought/Repuplic Aircraft and also I believe the rights to the builder who made the Yorktown class carriers has issued the following statement:

"Northrop/Grumman is requiring trademark licensing fees for the use of any aircraft, ship, boat, vehicle or weapon system that they our any of their acquired companies have ever produced. They maintain that all these things are covered by either registered trademark or “common law” trademark, sometimes both.

Upon further inquiry, he stated that all video/computer games, motion pictures, television, and toys are subject to these fees. When asked about literature, he said no.

I brought up the fact that the US government purchased these items and that they would seemingly be public domain. He said no, that both Northrop/Grumman and the US government own rights to the items."

They have gone after Ubisoft/ 1C for inclusion of Vought/Grumman/Republic Aircraft in Pacific Fighters and forced Ubisoft to pay a steep licence fee. Should they get wind of WITP they may go after Matrix. Don't belive me then read this thread:

http://www.igda.org/Forums/showthread.php?s=526c07027f6b2a492680753e8011dcac&threadid=13370

This has far reaching ramifications, it could spell the end of our hobby as we know it. Imagine if makers of WWII AFV's get involved?

I wonder if Matrix has contacted Northrop for their permission to use the names/images of Vought/Grumman/Republic Aircraft in WITP and/or UV?

Kevin



kellyc -> RE: Possible Northrop Torpedo headed Matrix's Way? (12/19/2004 1:26:02 PM)

Flight sims are all the rage nowadays so I can see why they would go after them, WITP is more niche and might fall under the radar (ie too small to bother with).
On the other side of the coin, sooner or later they'll go after someone who won't back down and it'll wind up in court.
One simple thing works against Northrop and the others, history cannot be copywrited. Steven Spielberg got sued over Armistad, he won due to it being a historical incident or fact. Whether or not someone is willing to due a legal-battle a major defense corporation is another matter.

Just my thoughts,
Sincerely
Kelly



fbastos -> RE: Possible Northrop Torpedo headed Matrix's Way? (12/19/2004 1:43:16 PM)

Hah!

I work in a company that once tried to control the licensing rights for "hyperlinks", arguing they have a patent that includes that. I laughed my lungs out on that corporate lunacy - as if one could control the Internet.

Probably the same thing here, these clowns will go after a few American companies because they think they can, but cannot do anything for software developed outside of the US, so in the end they will have a pie in their face.

I doubt this ridiculous idea will be around 2 years from now.

F.



Raverdave -> RE: Possible Northrop Torpedo headed Matrix's Way? (12/19/2004 1:52:18 PM)

These yanks are crazy[sm=crazy.gif]



2ndACR -> RE: Possible Northrop Torpedo headed Matrix's Way? (12/19/2004 1:56:33 PM)

A bunch of sue happy fools is what they are.



Ron Saueracker -> RE: Possible Northrop Torpedo headed Matrix's Way? (12/19/2004 2:44:31 PM)

They own history? The intellectual property lawyer litter I saw in school has grown up and are now running wild. Good grief...[:(][8|]



ZonkerHarris -> RE: Possible Northrop Torpedo headed Matrix's Way? (12/19/2004 3:03:05 PM)

Didn't Lockheed try this sort of a shakedown about 10 years ago with people doing sims of the F-22? If I'm remembering this right, the Air Force sent them a letter saying, in effect, we, the USAF, are paying billions of dollars for this aircraft, so that's our plane they're simulating, and they don't need to pay you a cent for it.

I almost wish that I was a developer, just so I could tell these clowns to go pound sand.



MadmanRick -> RE: Possible Northrop Torpedo headed Matrix's Way? (12/19/2004 5:12:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kverdon

There is a situation developing in the Flight Sim world that could have far reaching ramifications including WITP. In a nutshell, Northrop Corp who ownes the rights to Grumman/Vought/Repuplic Aircraft and also I believe the rights to the builder who made the Yorktown class carriers has issued the following statement:

"Northrop/Grumman is requiring trademark licensing fees for the use of any aircraft, ship, boat, vehicle or weapon system that they our any of their acquired companies have ever produced. They maintain that all these things are covered by either registered trademark or “common law” trademark, sometimes both.

Upon further inquiry, he stated that all video/computer games, motion pictures, television, and toys are subject to these fees. When asked about literature, he said no.

I brought up the fact that the US government purchased these items and that they would seemingly be public domain. He said no, that both Northrop/Grumman and the US government own rights to the items."

They have gone after Ubisoft/ 1C for inclusion of Vought/Grumman/Republic Aircraft in Pacific Fighters and forced Ubisoft to pay a steep licence fee. Should they get wind of WITP they may go after Matrix. Don't belive me then read this thread:

http://www.igda.org/Forums/showthread.php?s=526c07027f6b2a492680753e8011dcac&threadid=13370

This has far reaching ramifications, it could spell the end of our hobby as we know it. Imagine if makers of WWII AFV's get involved?

I wonder if Matrix has contacted Northrop for their permission to use the names/images of Vought/Grumman/Republic Aircraft in WITP and/or UV?

Kevin


Don't be so quick to dismiss this out of hand. Sadly, this trend has been ongoing for a number of years and it has been quite successful so far. I also build scale models and have an interest in model trains. Both of those hobbies are being hit hard by these type lawsuits. It is getting to the point that if the company which produces a particular model of something, doesn't pay royalties for using the name/logo etc., they will be sued out of business. The upshot of this is that the prices of everything will be going way up. So once again we the consumer, will pay to make these corporations even richer. So that some CEO somewhere can spend millions on his wife's birthday party and so that the corp. can continue to pay his billion dollar salary. This is the reality folks.

Rick



Ron Saueracker -> RE: Possible Northrop Torpedo headed Matrix's Way? (12/19/2004 5:31:42 PM)

Ahhhh, capitalism. Sure is nice living in the best countries in the world. They are going after model railroaders!!?! Geezus. This is not that huge a hobby andactually promotes railroading, from the hobbyist and toy train set at Christmas to advocating the reintroduction of rail to move freight in North America. Biting the very hand that feeds ya.

(I'm an armchair model railroader. Never had a stable enough existance to buy a permanent home so I could buildthat big multilevel layout in the basement. Built an gorgeous blackash N scale coffee table layout to display my Canadian rolling stock and motive power which I add to once in a while). WTF would my ex want with that but I let her have it too. One of these days I'll start my ONR layout and blow money on a hobby as opposed to beer. But beer is sooo good)

I really don't get Capitalism and I don't think it works. True Capitalism would have welcomed Bill Gates to the finish line but for some reason, if one perfects capitalism, ya get busted. WTF is the point?



Strv103C -> RE: Possible Northrop Torpedo headed Matrix's Way? (12/19/2004 6:37:33 PM)

I fint the US juridicalsystem very perculiar with lawsuits for everything and huge damagepayments, out of proportion. If this will become a reality then we consumers will pay for it in the end, as said before here. But the companys will find ways to go around it. I have a friend that sells softairguns and they too are affected by this. The solution they use is simply to rename the stuff, for example the M-16A3 rifle (or whatever it is called) is named M-15A3 rifle. Or maybe they will have to make special US versions that have the things renamed, perhaps G4F4 "Wildcow" for the US players while the rest of us use the real names... [:D]



Mike Scholl -> RE: Possible Northrop Torpedo headed Matrix's Way? (12/19/2004 8:43:43 PM)

The US justice system is very simple to understand. All aspects of it were written
by lawyers for lawyers, and justice has NOTHING to do with it. It's not about who
has the best case, but who's lawyers have the best bullsh1t. Name me one other
nation in the world who's "Justice System" could LEGALLY find O.J. Simpson both
guilty AND innocent of the SAME CRIME?

I've lived here all my life, and the only way I've ever found of understanding the
US judicial system is to think of it as a social welfare program for lawyers.



Xargun -> RE: Possible Northrop Torpedo headed Matrix's Way? (12/19/2004 8:48:23 PM)

I agree... They will lose if it goes to court... Otherwise any historical anything (except a book) will have to pay a royalty to whoever or whatever is shown in it... They are simply trying to pressure people into paying them... A court case will eventually come up and they will lose. But until then any money they can gather is free.

Xargun



rroberson -> RE: Possible Northrop Torpedo headed Matrix's Way? (12/19/2004 9:14:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Xargun

I agree... They will lose if it goes to court... Otherwise any historical anything (except a book) will have to pay a royalty to whoever or whatever is shown in it... They are simply trying to pressure people into paying them... A court case will eventually come up and they will lose. But until then any money they can gather is free.

Xargun



The problem is, the developer of the Pacific Fighters, is a small time Russian house and rather then go to court over this bullshit they will either focus on non-American aircraft or be forced to shut their doors...no way they can survive a court room pissing match like this financially.



m10bob -> RE: Possible Northrop Torpedo headed Matrix's Way? (12/19/2004 9:31:54 PM)

This is old "news"..The Supreme Court already made a ruling on Dec 8th..
http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID3/25853.html
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=US&navby=case&vol=000&invol=03-409
Lest we forget,the most dangerous man in the world,is the loudest mouth at a lynch mob.
Let's not concern ourselves with foolishness.



Strv103C -> RE: Possible Northrop Torpedo headed Matrix's Way? (12/19/2004 9:37:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

The US justice system is very simple to understand. All aspects of it were written
by lawyers for lawyers, and justice has NOTHING to do with it. It's not about who
has the best case, but who's lawyers have the best bullsh1t. Name me one other
nation in the world who's "Justice System" could LEGALLY find O.J. Simpson both
guilty AND innocent of the SAME CRIME?

I've lived here all my life, and the only way I've ever found of understanding the
US judicial system is to think of it as a social welfare program for lawyers.

I can name Sweden. The killer of the Swedesh Prime minister in 1985 was convicted in a cort but was freed in another. He was freed in a higher court but I don't know if this was the case with OJ. Another thing I heard, from an american friend, is that they are building water pipelines in the desert bordering Mexico because some illegal immigrants died from dehydration there. A court found the state guilty and they must now build said pipelines so that the illegal immigrants can survive the trip. Can anyone confirm this?



BlackVoid -> RE: Possible Northrop Torpedo headed Matrix's Way? (12/19/2004 9:58:08 PM)

If you self-publish, you just have to found a company in a "legally less developed" country.

The things people get sued over in the US is [:D]



BlackVoid -> RE: Possible Northrop Torpedo headed Matrix's Way? (12/19/2004 10:06:24 PM)

I worked and lived in the US and some European countries too (outside my homeland Hungary): Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland, Netherlands.

Compared to these European countries, the US is a police state, where everything is governed by labels, signs, laws and lots of policemen. Sorry to say this, because I liked the american people a lot. But in effect the USA is less free than most European nations.



Strv103C -> RE: Possible Northrop Torpedo headed Matrix's Way? (12/19/2004 10:15:55 PM)

Well, my girlfriend is american and even she cannot explain where the logic is there(everything depends on...). [:)] But the thing about this is that no matter if the company is based in the US or not it will have to put time and money investigating these issues as US is the biggest market and can't be overlooked. The end result will be a higher priced game or a worse game at the same price. We consumers lose (and the lawyers win of course).[:(]



BlackVoid -> RE: Possible Northrop Torpedo headed Matrix's Way? (12/19/2004 10:24:13 PM)

I would call the plane something crappy and make them look a bit more ugly.

Then make it moddable.....



kverdon -> RE: Possible Northrop Torpedo headed Matrix's Way? (12/19/2004 10:36:30 PM)

M10Bob,

Thanks, for the link to the train-board post. Though a Model Railroad and aware of the UP issue that has come up, I was on vacation and missed the news about the Supreme Court ruling. The ruling may do some good but the truth is that Northrop did force the Software producer to pay a licensing fee that they then deducted from the developer. The end result is that the small developer has refused to add any new planes from Vought/Grumman/Republic to their simulation. Hence, for example, though this a simulation of the Pacific war, there are no flyable US torpedo planes now nor will there be. The Supreme Court ruling could still not keep Northrop from coming after companies like Matrix as they could still sue them knowing that the Matrix would have to give in as they may not be able to afford going to court to win. I really hope someone takes Northrop to court and stops this craziness before it gets out of hand.



doomonyou -> RE: Possible Northrop Torpedo headed Matrix's Way? (12/19/2004 10:45:35 PM)

All US patents and trademarks become public domain after a set time (pharmaceuticals in 17 years with a possible 7 yeare extention or public trademarks in 50 years, IIRC). Since the latest you could assume any WWII items were made was 1945 that means that no less than sixty years has passed since the item was created and in all likelyhood, more than that. I would doubt that any of the trademarks or patents are still valid and have not passed into public domain, disney has worked for years with very special wrangling and political hammering to extent the mickey mouse trademark, but even still its almost about to expire. I strongly doubt that northrop grumman took such massive investments in time and effort to protect the trademark of a name of a plane whose last physical representitive was scrapped 40 plus years ago.



Strv103C -> RE: Possible Northrop Torpedo headed Matrix's Way? (12/19/2004 11:18:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlackVoid

I would call the plane something crappy and make them look a bit more ugly.

Then make it moddable.....

That would probably be wise if this situation comes up. Some private persons might make a mod. The developer can say "we can't help that there are shameless private persons making mods " (fingers crossed). They can of corse try to sue a private person somewhere in the world, hehe..



pad152 -> RE: Possible Northrop Torpedo headed Matrix's Way? (12/19/2004 11:41:01 PM)

quote:

Northrop Corp


Northrop Corp must be in sad shape if they have nothing better to due than sue game companies.

I can just see it now, gun companies sue all the makers of FPS (First Person Shooters) for using their guns in games [:D]

The lawyers have a better chance of sueing hollywood for using guns in movies and TV without permission from the gun makers.



Brady -> RE: Possible Northrop Torpedo headed Matrix's Way? (12/19/2004 11:50:50 PM)

I thought some gun companys had already sued soem game developers?, forcing them to re-name many guns in some games??



adsoul -> RE: Possible Northrop Torpedo headed Matrix's Way? (12/19/2004 11:59:35 PM)

You guys think we'll have to pay Mr.HTML for using this forum? [;)]



m10bob -> RE: Possible Northrop Torpedo headed Matrix's Way? (12/20/2004 12:22:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kverdon

M10Bob,

Thanks, for the link to the train-board post. Though a Model Railroad and aware of the UP issue that has come up, I was on vacation and missed the news about the Supreme Court ruling. The ruling may do some good but the truth is that Northrop did force the Software producer to pay a licensing fee that they then deducted from the developer. The end result is that the small developer has refused to add any new planes from Vought/Grumman/Republic to their simulation. Hence, for example, though this a simulation of the Pacific war, there are no flyable US torpedo planes now nor will there be. The Supreme Court ruling could still not keep Northrop from coming after companies like Matrix as they could still sue them knowing that the Matrix would have to give in as they may not be able to afford going to court to win. I really hope someone takes Northrop to court and stops this craziness before it gets out of hand.
Partner......I provided two links...
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=US&navby=case&vol=000&invol=03-409



Brausepaul -> RE: Possible Northrop Torpedo headed Matrix's Way? (12/20/2004 1:47:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady

I thought some gun companys had already sued soem game developers?, forcing them to re-name many guns in some games??


Yepp, that's right. Counter-Strike doesn't have real weapon designations anymore.



Ron Saueracker -> RE: Possible Northrop Torpedo headed Matrix's Way? (12/20/2004 2:07:02 AM)

Let's go kick the stuffing out of a lawyer the next time we see one using a cell in a restaurant just on principle. Friggin leaches. Mama told me to never try to get ahead by stepping on others, but that's all these dudes do.[:@]



Brady -> RE: Possible Northrop Torpedo headed Matrix's Way? (12/20/2004 3:04:37 AM)

It's Nuts realy, the folks who would buy these games would likely be the kind to appricate these companys more if they were alowed to use their real names, even considering that in the case of the planes thier over 60 years old, it still could be construed as a posative public relations angle...err free advertising, n0t i supose that they realy nead it but heck this is just Nuttz, we should tell our congresmman to drop all backing for Northrup and go Boing:)

I woundr how many flight sim geaks work for Northrup, and if their just as ticked as the rest of us?



Platoonist -> RE: Possible Northrop Torpedo headed Matrix's Way? (12/20/2004 4:15:23 AM)

Awww geez. I guess this explains all those generic car makes in Grand Theft Auto. At this rate someday all legitimate commerce and industry will be shut down. The economy will just revolve around litigation.



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