Technical and Tactical questions (Full Version)

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Kristo Vaher -> Technical and Tactical questions (12/23/2004 11:11:58 AM)

Even as Ive enjoyed SPWaW for a long time already, Im still wondering about some questions I wondered about during the first day I played this game, and would hope you experts would answer this.

It said in the manual some place, but cant remember well... Hoe large was a hex supposed to be and how long does one turn of game time play in real life?

Also I wonder about the speed of units. Have heard different strategies like move in one turn shoot in the next one, but how is it really translated to real life situation? Like in one turn I move my squad for their full move-points and in the beginning of next turn they are as if not moving at all? Would really like to know some insight into this matter, for it bothers me more and more.

ANother issue is infantry squads. Having passed military training for a period of one year, I know some about infantry mobility and movement on the battlefields. Now I wonder if flanking works the way its supposed to. I know flanking works, but I wonder does it do that because the squad is under fire from two different directions, or is it because of their positioning on the battlefield. For example, if a squad of men is in point A facing 12'a clock, and enemy squad approaches them from 6 a clock, then does the assaulting squad cause massive damage to the squad at A because they are facing entirely another direction? In squad movement, especially in battle formations you dont have specific troop or two facing backwards. If anything you have two sidemost men, usually one MG, covering entire area ahead of the squad, or with angled zone of fire covering slight bits from the side of the squad. So I wonder does it set the A squad under massive disadvantage when they are fired upon first from rear. In SPWaW it seems as if they turn and can fire back, and I cant really tell. In real life such a situation would be a disaster for the A squad.

I already know about the tanks not being able to move backwards, shame but not a fatal issue, but their movement question is the same as the infantry one I had.

I would be very glad if someone could answer those questions :)



Danny Boy -> RE: Technical and Tactical questions (12/23/2004 1:08:05 PM)

Hi Kristo

quote:

ANother issue is infantry squads. Having passed military training for a period of one year, I know some about infantry mobility and movement on the battlefields. Now I wonder if flanking works the way its supposed to. I know flanking works, but I wonder does it do that because the squad is under fire from two different directions, or is it because of their positioning on the battlefield. For example, if a squad of men is in point A facing 12'a clock, and enemy squad approaches them from 6 a clock, then does the assaulting squad cause massive damage to the squad at A because they are facing entirely another direction? In squad movement, especially in battle formations you dont have specific troop or two facing backwards. If anything you have two sidemost men, usually one MG, covering entire area ahead of the squad, or with angled zone of fire covering slight bits from the side of the squad. So I wonder does it set the A squad under massive disadvantage when they are fired upon first from rear. In SPWaW it seems as if they turn and can fire back, and I cant really tell. In real life such a situation would be a disaster for the A squad.


The issue of flanking on a large scale should be different to that of individual units being out flanked. In a large scale flanking manoeuvre the opposing forces will/should have a moral check issue as they will be being fired on from more than one front, this becomes more apparent when you get enemy troops in your rear area[:D] In small unit actions ie individual units, depending on the country concerned this will have a far more debilitating effect. I think the game realises that a squad is likely to have at least one man covering the rear area, but in terms of practicality the whole unit icon turns to a particular facing as and when necessary.

quote:

I already know about the tanks not being able to move backwards, shame but not a fatal issue, but their movement question is the same as the infantry one I had.


Tanks can/do move backwards but you cannot control it as a player, it is the ai that takes over this control...and God help you if your tank is reversing and gets caught from behind!

Have a good holiday

Cheers!



Kristo Vaher -> RE: Technical and Tactical questions (12/23/2004 1:37:22 PM)

Thanks for a quick reply but it still left most of my questions unanswered. Id mostly like an answer to the speed thing, aka the one I described with moving one turn shooting another and the movement in between, the time of a turn and such.

Anyways, as far as flanking goes, in SPWaW I can understand the icons (and why they are as they are), since in usual movement column or line is used, so they use scattered as the mid-way to solve things. Nevertheless, in defensive formation... Lets take a defensive battalion for example, Usually platoons crossfire some field or area and have a slight angle inwards. If enemy direction is not as clear, then they are bend outwards, cowering wider area ahead yet not big options for one platoon to crossfire into another platoons field of fire. Nevertheless, in such a formation first of all, troops are lined up (in defensive formation more than 20 meters apart from each other (one pair of infantry, MG, squad leader with medic and so on) to cover as wide area as possible. However, now if youd have these troops flanked, for example because another battalion has been a) destroyed b) routed c) something worse, then their left wing would be open and enemy would assault the battalion from that wing as soon as possible. Not requiring much organizing, they can quickly get into a formation to sweep through the entire defensive line. However, in real life in this situation, the furthermost platoon or couple of squads are sent to cover the flank (in this case the flank where enemy is now coming), and holding on as long as some support or flexible defensive formation can be set up.

This gives time for the battalion, however in SPWaW its somehow handled differently.

First of all, when youve got a defensive wall, side by side, hex by hex covering some field and for some stupid reason enemy gets the option to flank you from a side, then for some really strange reason men in your defensive line can shoot over (!) other squads in their line of fire. This is totally NOT military move, not even during WW2 and with somewhat questionable tactics of the russian army. But in SPWaW its done, without losing morale of the troops within friendly field of fire that covers the flanks.

I got used to it though, even if it was unrealistic. ANd it didnt bother me much when battles were large scale. But I personally prefer battles of smaller scales, battalion at max, to have good pacing in the game and more importance of individual tactics than power of mass and fire. ANd in times like that, I have platoons, three to four squads, at different flanking manouvres or patrols, and as I manage to surprise the enemy lines they can like instantly turn towards me and fire back. At least give two turns to let them correct their positions.

Ah well, still just a game (and far more realistic than others Ive played). But please, give me the answer to the question I had about unit movement between turns. Is the beginning of every turn as if they havent moved at all or something?



BryanMelvin -> RE: Technical and Tactical questions (12/23/2004 5:55:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kristo Vaher

Even as Ive enjoyed SPWaW for a long time already, Im still wondering about some questions I wondered about during the first day I played this game, and would hope you experts would answer this.

It said in the manual some place, but cant remember well... Hoe large was a hex supposed to be and how long does one turn of game time play in real life?

Also I wonder about the speed of units. Have heard different strategies like move in one turn shoot in the next one, but how is it really translated to real life situation? Like in one turn I move my squad for their full move-points and in the beginning of next turn they are as if not moving at all? Would really like to know some insight into this matter, for it bothers me more and more.

ANother issue is infantry squads. Having passed military training for a period of one year, I know some about infantry mobility and movement on the battlefields. Now I wonder if flanking works the way its supposed to. I know flanking works, but I wonder does it do that because the squad is under fire from two different directions, or is it because of their positioning on the battlefield. For example, if a squad of men is in point A facing 12'a clock, and enemy squad approaches them from 6 a clock, then does the assaulting squad cause massive damage to the squad at A because they are facing entirely another direction? In squad movement, especially in battle formations you dont have specific troop or two facing backwards. If anything you have two sidemost men, usually one MG, covering entire area ahead of the squad, or with angled zone of fire covering slight bits from the side of the squad. So I wonder does it set the A squad under massive disadvantage when they are fired upon first from rear. In SPWaW it seems as if they turn and can fire back, and I cant really tell. In real life such a situation would be a disaster for the A squad.

I already know about the tanks not being able to move backwards, shame but not a fatal issue, but their movement question is the same as the infantry one I had.

I would be very glad if someone could answer those questions :)


From the Game Manual Page Two --

Scale Each terrain tile in the game (called a hex) is 50 meters or about 50 yards across, and each turnrepresents a few minutes. The scale can be changed from hexes to meters to yards by using the@ key. All movement rates, sighting routines, command and control ranges, communications ranges, weapon ranges and unit frontages have been adjusted accordingly. Units are individual vehicles and heavy guns, small groups of light mortars, and teams or squads of infantry andheavy weapons from 2-20 men strong. Shots by units typically represent individual rounds orsmall shot groups for tanks and artillery, and bursts of 5-10 rounds for small arms and automatic heavy weapons.

Next, the game does make adjustments for unit facing and movement along with the Terrain target is in - see pages 63. You can flank infantry units and can inflict heavy losses on them. It is best to move Infantry slowly when in contact with enemy forces. If you move fast and these are shot at, heavy infantry losses happen. One thing you can try is to fire from two different directions. This will cause the enemy unit to turn and fire at one unit while another of unit returns fire. Repeat this and the enemy unit will become heavily suppressed or suffer losses.

If you need a copy of the Manual - I can post it here or send it to you. Please let me know.



Kristo Vaher -> RE: Technical and Tactical questions (12/23/2004 7:04:18 PM)

THanks. If this is the same manual that comes with regular installs (v5 one?) then I have it, and have read it, just couldnt find the 50m thing.

BUt the question about movement is still unclear and unanswered. Lets take a situation where the turn begins and I move my squad ahead 4 tiles. Now, how long was a turn in real life? Minute? Two? Anyways, I end the turn. Another turn begins. Now does the game count the squad that moved in previous turn, as a moving squad or entirely stopped squad (aka the same as if the squad hasnt moved for a couple of rounds but isnt yet in "better" positions, dug in or whatever the icon shows). I wonder about this, because it would adjust my strategy. I would not shoot during movement.

Hmm, does computer consider in between turns then as positions where everything is "stopped". THis is what my question is about, since it seems weird, sometimes Id like my squad or vehicles to keep the pace, sometiems Id like to know when does the game think my squad is in position and ready for actions.

This sure is not a question in many turn based games, but in one that goes as realistic ways as SPWaW it forces me to think about these things. Already Ive seen how much real life tactics can work in simulator such as SPWaW. For the hell of it, I didnt even know why is outmanouvering so important before seeing it done effectively in SPWaW. And no other game portrays Tigers as good as this, those reflecting shells sure are sweet.

But yeah, the movement between turns and their speed issue is the one Id like an answer to. Also, please somebody remind me how long does one turn "last" in time.

Also, how do you guys do fire and movement? Is it effective? Like a platoon in a row advancing towards enemy, first and third squad move in one turn while others just cover? And then vice versa. Hex by hex. This is how its done nowadays (when not flanking and direct assault is important), and I wonder how does the SPWaW engine handle this movement here again. Does it consider that after movement the aiming is not as good, or doesnt it. Also, as the turn may last a couple of minutes, then the entire fire movement tactic is not useful really, since usually there are more than one of those manouvres per minute...



Voriax -> RE: Technical and Tactical questions (12/23/2004 9:05:33 PM)

Kristo, your quest for turn length will unfortunately stay without exact answer. Yeah, if you start counting that your infantry unit travelled 200m in one turn..so maybe a minute, right? However turn length is largely a pretty abstract thing. The most accurate answer you will ever get is: "few minutes". This is a game so things like this needs to be abstracted. Consider if scenario designer wants to compress a day-long tank battle with couple hundred units into 20-turn fight. So is turn length then 30 minutes in this case? Of course not. Remember, game [;)] Many things have been done in certain way to get the 'it feels right' effect. Now some people will disagree but this is the way it is.

As for unit speed..well, if you move your unit x hexes and it ends up having, say, 15 mph speed. When you end your turn and opponent starts his turn your unit will still have this 15mph speed. When you start your next turn units have zero speed until you move them again.

Your fire and movement method is quite okay. Of course remember to send some scouts in first [:D] The game does take movement into account when it calculates to-hit probabilities. Each unit has firecontrol/targetting and rangefinder stats, the first one being the one that is needed most if you want to move and fire.

Hope this helps.

Voriax



Kristo Vaher -> RE: Technical and Tactical questions (12/23/2004 9:31:36 PM)

Thanks it cleared some other things up. About the fire and movement, when half of my platoon is advancing and another half gives the opponent loads of rounds then they should supress opponent enough to cut down their ability to shoot well the troops who are advancing. At least this is so in real life, and I believe it works likewise in SPWaW.

But about this movement thing again. Your example, tank moving 15mph then in the end turn phase he is still 15mph. But at the beginning of next turn, is his speed straight away 15mph or does he need to accelerate again?

And is this same thing taken into account in infantry movement?

And yes of course this is just a game, but since its made for hardcore wargamers with its heavy touch of realism, these are the issues that will be confusing even on game level. Game or simulation well doesnt matter, rules should still be clear ;)

Btw saw Band of Brothers series some time ago and am wondering if in SPWaW there is the same kind of artillery germans used in Bastogne? Aka one that explodes before hitting the ground cutting trees (not so visually in SPWaW though) and sending out a whole load of sharpnel...

Most of my own experience is based on military training in Estonia, and since we are kinda in "no tanks" situation, then my situations are mostly described through infantry perspective...



FlashfyreSP -> RE: Technical and Tactical questions (12/24/2004 7:09:49 AM)

Kristo, think of the Game Turns and movement like this:

One Game Turn = Player 1's Turn + Player 2's Turn
Movement is considered for one complete Game Turn.

You are Player 1; you move a tank its maximum movement in your Turn. Checking the unit status box, you see it is moving 15 mph.
Player 2 begins his Turn and sees your tank; it is still moving 15 mph, because YOUR Turn is assumedto be taking place at the same time. Game Turn ends.
You begin your next Turn, and now your tank is stopped.

Hope this helps.



Kristo Vaher -> RE: Technical and Tactical questions (12/24/2004 12:10:23 PM)

Yeah this is what I figured, and I know that same turn for both players takes place at the same time, duh. Anyways I cant understand why does the tank have to be stopped after the turn has ended. If Id want a quick getaway it would get out faster if itd have previous turns speed on him. Ah well...



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