How can you guys stand PBEM? (Full Version)

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bordric -> How can you guys stand PBEM? (12/29/2004 8:50:00 PM)

I keep hearing all this talk about pbem but I could not imagine playing like that. Turns are painful enough against the AI, 1 or 2 turns a day would take years to finish one of the long scenario's.

Do you just play the small scenario's ?



mogami -> RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? (12/29/2004 9:08:58 PM)

Hi, No we play the monsters. What is the rush? Why create a game this size and detail and then desire to finsih 1600+turns overnight. If you don't get enough turns from 1 PBEM game you play 2. If that leaves you twiddling your thumbs you play 3.
In PBEM there are many guys who would laugh at the notion of only doing 2 or 3 turns per day. But the real issue is being in a rush to finish a game. As long as turns arrive on a regular bases there is no problem. The fun is in playing. Not in finishing. The end will come when it comes. But you have to fight the war like you do not know the end date.
I'm not really interested in playing anyone who just wants to rush to the finish. Sometimes you have to take a day or two on 1 turn. Othertimes you send 10 in one day but it is never about speed only in doing it the best you can. I think (I hope) I will live long enough to play several complete games with the same person but I'm not looking to the next game. You can't play it that way and thinking of it in those terms would spoil the experiance. It is supposed to take a while. Thats why the game has 1 day turns and not seasonal turns or monthly turns or weekly turns.



2ndACR -> RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? (12/29/2004 9:13:40 PM)

PBEM is the ultimate. The AI will never compare to a sneaky, devious human.

Me and Ron average about 6 turns per day on most days. Me and Pzb average 2 turns a day.

And that is just average. Me and Ron have done 12 turns in one day a couple of times. But a month of game time per week of real time is the norm.



ltfightr -> RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? (12/29/2004 9:14:34 PM)

I have 2 games as allied scenerio 15 on 1 day turns

I am playing a 4 person team game as the Ijn also scenerio 15 on 1 day turns.

I also have an UV game going since 10-03.

If you have multiple games you almost always have a turn inbound or outbound.



mbatch729 -> RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? (12/29/2004 9:25:57 PM)

PBEM is GREAT. The challenge of a (usually) thinking person, the friendly insults and banter, the gloating when you pull off that miracle move...So what if it is going to take me 3 years or more to finish a game? The journey is what's important, not the destination...



kaleun -> RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? (12/29/2004 9:33:26 PM)

Ditto.
Due to real life constraints, sometimes I only get in one turn a day. Sometimes more. I now have 3 games going.
Have not played the AI since about one week after I got the game.



The Gnome -> RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? (12/29/2004 10:20:13 PM)

Not everyone loves PBEM, don't let 'em fool ya ;). I prefer playing the PC.



WiTP_Dude -> RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? (12/29/2004 10:39:19 PM)

The AI is more painful because it is utterly stupid. All players should win by 1943 playing the AI. Despite that, what's the point of playing against a machine anyway?



bilbow -> RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? (12/29/2004 10:47:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mbatch729

PBEM is GREAT. The challenge of a (usually) thinking person, the friendly insults and banter, the gloating when you pull off that miracle move...So what if it is going to take me 3 years or more to finish a game? The journey is what's important, not the destination...


Can't agree more. Mbatch and I played one game of UV that ran from Sept 02 to Feb 04, all the way to 12/31/43. We averaged about 1 turn a day, and when it ended, it was like losing a friend. Jap victory on points I might add.[:D]



bordric -> RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? (12/29/2004 10:55:35 PM)

I don't know, but finishing the game fast is not the issue, finishing the game in a lifetime would be nice though. :)

I guess it is just perspective. Yes the victory and final defeat of the enemy is the goal for me anyway, getting there should not be rushed but getting there is nice.

At least the computer is always there even with its limitations I think its fun, no need to wait for vacations or people having a bad day, or all the other things that happen in life. ;)

No doubt a human is more challenge but for a game of this size the AI is not bad at all.

Now in 4 or 5 years when the next computer generation hits and will be able to finish a turn sequence like PACWAR then I will play ya. :) But then PBEM in PACWAR still had all those human issues involved..



mogami -> RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? (12/29/2004 11:25:46 PM)

Hi, You know there are people who still play chess by snail mail.
I think the game of WITP will go faster then the actual war and people survived that and a few are still even around today. I'll still be playing WITP 10 years from now. (I was still playing PACWAR when UV came out)



bordric -> RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? (12/29/2004 11:28:21 PM)

Yeah I played a PACWAR game month ago, been playing it 10 years or so. [;)]



wobbly -> RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? (12/30/2004 12:01:50 AM)

I think you guys are all missing the reason for the attractiveness of this game and how it lends itself to PBEM.

The little victories!

You have a plan, you get the pieces into position for the plan, and then you pull it off successfully. Right next plan. Or maybe you don't pull it off - now it is scramble to get as many pieces out of the crap that you have placed them in.

It is also the milestones. Waiting for that carrier, the one that will even the odds or give you the odds - right now enemy you are for it! Or maybe the new and powerful fighter to come online.

This just doesn't work against the AI. What does it care? It'll loose all it's carriers and still keep rolling along with a failed invasion. You sit outside the invasion hex and pound the poor infantry into the coral. That would bore the tears out of you in no time, and in that case you should indeed be asking yourself "why play this game, turn at a time for 4 years"?

So the game is a massive undertaken but it is beautifully broken down into managable chunks by the little victories or defeats. You take each as they come and the interest factor just doesn't wane.



mogami -> RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? (12/30/2004 12:08:21 AM)

Hi, Yes that is true. Also the game is much more fun once you forget about winning or losing it and concentrate on doing the best you can and winning a battle here and there along the way. A person who frets about losing a game of WITP should never play the Japanese in the long campaign. (It is almost a done deal)
The fun is in messing up the plans of the enemy when you can and keeping out of his clutches when you can't.



bordric -> RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? (12/30/2004 12:17:18 AM)

So basically unless you play PBEM the game is broke and there is no need to even have it? Because the AI is broke and can not/will not be fixed...

That is not good news for someone who just started playing. Especially considering the price. I would venture to say most did not purchase it to play PBEM.

All the talk about fretting I am not sure where that came from. Not fretting about losing, if there was no chance to lose then not much of a game. Although playing the Allies you would have to be really horrible to lose.



mogami -> RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? (12/30/2004 12:21:45 AM)

Hi, Unless you know what you are doing you will not know the AI is broke. (It's not broken it's still just an AI and all AI in everygame ever made are broken once you learn to play the game)
One hint you are ready for PBEM is when you can prove the AI is "broke"

The AI will kick the snot out of you at first.



kaleun -> RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? (12/30/2004 12:54:25 AM)

Hmmmm. I started playing PBEM long before I figured out the AI was broken. Come to think of it, I haven't figured that out because I haven't played it for more than 7 game turns.[&:]



mogami -> RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? (12/30/2004 1:02:47 AM)

Hi, The AI is no match for the guys who use wild exotic invade everywhere conquer the world styles. It does a decent job against players who think they should have aircontrol before they invade. Who don't steal units from Manchuria or Korea. And who know they understand the game so at the start they choose the hardest setting rather then easy or historic.
The Historic setting means you are going to play "historically" and you wish the AI to do the same.
Unless you are trashing the AI on the hardest setting while confining yourself to a somewhat historic (by this I mean you worry about losing ships aircraft and men needlessly) style then you can't say the AI is broken. Broken means it does not do what it is designed to do.
If you really want to see the AI and think you are a genius then play Japan on hardest setting and start the 1944 Campaign. (or at least the 1943 one)
The AI is almost unbeatable here.



madflava13 -> RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? (12/30/2004 1:11:15 AM)

This game's too complex to make an AI that will give a human a run for his money time after time. That doesn't mean the game's broken. It just means 2by3 doesn't have 6 billion to devote to "Big Blue - WitP style"...



bordric -> RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? (12/30/2004 1:25:26 AM)

Well PBEM is too boring and relies on the AI of the Human which in most cases in my past let you down. LOL

I had lots of rules in the pre-Matrix Pacwar game, no bombing Palmbang(sp) oil fields etc. I also prefer historical play, I would really like to be able to play like the South Pacific while the rest of the war goes on around me. But I was told the AI is too weak for this also and it does not work well.

Perhaps it should have shipped with only PBEM? [:'(] At least then you know what you are buying, although I would venture to say 90% would not buy...



madflava13 -> RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? (12/30/2004 1:37:03 AM)

bordric -
You should go read some of the AARs that are going on. I don't think PBEM is boring at all - I think playing the AI when I know I can beat it time and time again is, but that's just me.



bordric -> RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? (12/30/2004 1:44:59 AM)

Yeah I know Mad, looks like you guys are having hell of fun time. Guess I will have to jump in soon. Prolly just get spanked though someone invade L.A., or San Fran or something in1942... [:D]



e8flyer -> RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? (12/30/2004 1:45:07 AM)

I'll have to agree with the other folks in this forum. PBEM rules! I am still trying to bring myself back to playing against the AI. Unfortunately my PBEM buddy, has had to take some time off for family issues......obviously does not have his priorites straight [:D], but I am looking forward to starting our game again. Also I am trying to think of a way that we can continue playing when I ship backout to the desert again. Stupid deployed email has size restriction. There is nothing like just getting a turn, and asking the question the president asks during any military crisis, "where are the carriers?"
quote:

ORIGINAL: madflava13

bordric -
You should go read some of the AARs that are going on. I don't think PBEM is boring at all - I think playing the AI when I know I can beat it time and time again is, but that's just me.



pasternakski -> RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? (12/30/2004 2:26:22 AM)

Let's clear the decks once and for all on PBEM. Yes, as things stand, it's the only way to get a decent game out of WitP.

The problem is that computer wargaming stands on a different basis. The original idea was that board wargamers could not find playing partners, so the computer ought to stand in and be an effective opponent.

The computer never lived up to the task. Even though almost all early computer wargames (particularly Grigsby's) were intended for human vs. computer play, the AI was never anything to write home about. Just about all "solutions" centered around giving the computer player certain advantages (combat, materiel, and so on). Few designers thought to advance AI design in accordance with the solitaire gaming precept built into the computer gaming market.

All I can say is that the vast majority of gamers still play, and prefer, solitaire. If our hobby is to survive in any meaningful sense and compete successfully against RTS and first-person shooters, someone has to step up and figure out how to design AIs that satisfy the majority of game buyers.

It's that simple. Adapt or die. PBEM will never support gaming to the degree that it will be profitable enough to expand the consumer base.



bordric -> RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? (12/30/2004 2:36:36 AM)

That is pretty much my point Pasternakski, you just said it better. [;)]


I bought the game for 1 vs Ai, if I ever play PBEM it will only be a side dish to what I thought I was getting. I am not terribly unhappy yet but I was just surprised by all of the post like this; "Well forget it you need to play another Player, AI sucks."...

I also do not understand why with all the technology a decent AI could not be made, of course I do not expect perfection, just a little this side of it. I don't know seems AI has not changed much in the last years unlike all the other things in gaming.



siRkid -> RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? (12/30/2004 2:38:03 AM)

The AI is not broke it is as good as any AI out there. And we have made improvments to the AI, read the patch notes. No one has sent me any saves showing the AI doing something stupid over and over again. Sure it will never be as good as a human but to call it broke it totally unfair.



bordric -> RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? (12/30/2004 2:49:28 AM)

I apologize Kid I should not have said broke, I was just being factious in that post with dry sarcasm towards the PBEM guys. I have actually not played all the way through and do not expect I will for many months from now. In truth I was just jabbing them in the ribs for all the post "Play another Player". [:D]

So far I am having fun, of course like Mogami said if you want and know the AI weakness you can use it, I have not played the game for long but I can already figure out how to do that. Which also made sense when he said to play the game and not worry about hurry to win. I agree with that.

Personally I enjoy historical runs, I like to push up through the South Pacific for a While and meet up at the Mariana's with the Central Pacific. I am capable of a few rules for myself to keep from breaking the AI. Have done for a long time I will do it again.

Again this is a great game and I was not meaning debase anyone's hard work.
I can see now reading back that is what it looks like but honestly I was just picking on the PBEM guys. But Pasternaski still has a very point.



Thayne -> RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? (12/30/2004 3:06:27 AM)

Ah, this debate raises its ugly head again.

As I have said in the past, different people have different likes, and let each person play the type of game they like. I object when PBEM players denigrate those of us who prefer to play against the AI, and I see no reason to denigrate those who play PBEM. Each is looking for different things in a game, and it is good that each can find something that they like here in WiTP.

I have no problem understanding the PBEM gamer willing to devote several years to a good game. I could certainly play my game a heck of a lot faster if I did not take my time to write the THAYNE NEWS CAMPAIGN REPORTS. I am willing to sacrifice speed for something that I enjoy, and a PBEM gamer likely has similar interests.

Personally, I would much appreciate it if the AI would have the cleverness to lay traps and create and execute complex strategies. These are traits that you are only going to find in a human player. Unfortunately, the same ability in a human that allows them to do these things, also allows them to see weaknesses in the rules (or the program) and to exploit those as well, which (for me) robs the game of a certain amount of enjoyment.

It is good that both types of players can find interest in WiTP.

Thayne



rhondabrwn -> RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? (12/30/2004 3:13:40 AM)

The big factor intimidating me from doing PBEM is that it locks you into a game partnership for the length of the game, kinda like adopitng a puppy. Sure, it's lots of fun at first, but you are making a huge committment of time and effort to the puppy (or the game). It scares me to think that I just do not have the time or energy to be locked into feeling obligated to send daily turns... and I would feel so bad if I had to let someone down by abandoning a game in progress.

At least the AI is totally insensitive if I save a game and then never come back to it again (and I have plenty of partial games out there).

I guess I'm one of those people who never master a game sufficiently to even know that there are problems with the AI [:D]

Actually, if I knew there was some gamey strategy to outfox the AI, I wouldn't use it. If you are going to deliverately take advantage of something like that, why play at all?

I never understood my boys downloading cheat codes to give them unlimited funds in Sim City and invulnerability in fighting games and so forth. To my mind, it removed all purpose from the game and reduced any victory to inconsequence.

So, if there are novices out there who would settle for a guarantee of one turn a month (maybe more, of course, but no promises), I might be their girl.



Farfarer61 -> RE: How can you guys stand PBEM? (12/30/2004 3:20:42 AM)

Excellent piece Mogami. I played Pacwar for several years - get this- via satellite connection and download, so the turns had to be zipped less than 35KB. I actually prevailed on the IT guys to get their limit raised from 30K per attachment, to 35K.

Yes, it was the operational level level campaigns within the greater strategic context that counted. I think no one wants to play from others' mistakes ( yeah - post Midway - I'll take over now hehe).

Overall, your opponent may become aware of your strategy e.g. get B17/24/29 bases in range of the heartland and start the bombing, or something else.



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