China Only Game (Full Version)

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WiTP_Dude -> China Only Game (1/22/2005 11:46:45 PM)

Seeking Chinese player for a test game covering only the China theater. This is using version 1.4.

General:
1. 2-day turns to speed things along.
2. Set to no replacements initially.
3. Reinforcements fixed.
4. Advanced Weather effects on.

Japan Rules:
1. Can bring in 30,000 supplies each month from Japan.
2. Can bring in additional aircraft from outside China on this schedule:
a. December 41 - one figher group, one bomber group.
b. May 42 - one fighter group, one bomber group.
c. December 42 - one fighter group, one bomber group.
3. Can transfer Kwantung area armies to China but must transfer them to China command using political points and must insure that Manchuria has a garrison sufficient to prevent activation.
4. 1000 political points allowed to be used per month for China.
5. The 38th Div assigned to southern area command can only be used to take Hong Kong. After this point it should either be evacuated or can be used to garrison HK.
6. Will be allowed to take Palembang without opposition in January 1942 for oil purposes.
7. Will be allowed to secure Burma without opposition in March 1942 . The Allied player gets to keep control of the part of Burma north of the trails (Ledo area).

China:
1. Can transfer AVG and Chinese AF units between China, Burma, and India air base as desired.
2. May add additional Allied aircraft to China on this schedule:
a. May 1942 - two sixteen plane Hurrican II fighter groups, one B-17E bomber group.
b. December 1942 - two sixteen plane fighter groups, one bomber group.
3. Can setup air resupply transport system ("The Hump") in northern Burma and eastern India. Can use any transport aircraft (Dakotas, C-47s, ect) for this. Can also use up to 200 Hudsons and Blenheims for this as well. Commonwealth (British, Indians, Australians, ect) ground forces will be used to build up the airfields and provide the aviation support.
4. May transfer a single air HQ from India into China at any time. No other units can be transfered into China until much later in the game. Additional ground units can be added on this schedule:
a. January 1943 - one infantry division, one armored brigade.
b. July 1943 - one infantry division, one armored bridge, one engineering regiment.
5. 400 political points per month allowed to be used for China.

War Summary

December 19th - Chinese Capture Nanning
December 24th - Chinese Capture Pakhoi
December 26th - Japanese Capture Changsa
December 31st - Japanese Capture Hengchow
January 6th - Chinese Recapture Hengchow
January 20th - Japanese Capture Yenan
January 27th - Japanese Capture Homan
January 30th - Japanese Capture Ichang
February 1st - Japanese Capture Sian
February 5th - Japanese Recapture Hengchow
February 15th - Japanese Capture Kungchang
February 25th - Japanese Capture Kweiyang
March 7th - Chinese Recapture Hengchow
March 8th - Japanese Capture Wuchow



moses -> RE: China Only Game (1/26/2005 7:42:46 PM)

I would play but I hate the two day turns.

WITP_Dude is an excellant PBEM partner. We've burned off almost 6 months of turns since the beginning of Dec and I think there was only one weekend around the holidays where he could not send turns. Hasn't done anything gamey that I've seen. Plus what a challenge to stop him as China.



WiTP_Dude -> RE: China Only Game (1/26/2005 11:30:40 PM)

I think you mean you don't play two-day turns.



moses -> RE: China Only Game (1/27/2005 12:12:43 AM)

yep I'll edit that.



Feinder -> RE: China Only Game (1/27/2005 5:40:15 PM)

Hey Witp_Dude,

I'll take a piece of this. Be advised, it might not go as fast as you're hoping. I've got 2 other pbem games going, and my son is teething (so I spend half my evenings with my pinky in his mouth while he *CHOMPS*, but that also precludes playing WitP). But if you're playing Moses at the same time, you'll have the advantage of correcting any mistakes against him, in the game against me... :^)

What do we do with the rest of the war? I figured to just stand down everything? I would make the execution of stuff easier, and it would mitigate the "other losses" that might muddle the score keeping. Would also be easier for you to take the "scripted bases" (like Palembang), if everyone is just snoozing on the beach (or I could even move them out the way; again the point being to not unduly increase the points scored in the rest of the theater outside of China).

I thot maybe set it computer control at Historical Diff, maybe produce historical results? But that can skew the scoring.

I also I don't know anything about Japanese production, how would having everything stand-down affect your ability to make tanks? Or if AI controlling everything, again, does that affect your production? Just asking.

You said, all C-47s are ok, so...
1. The C-47 in CentPac initially is ok to deploy to China?
2. The 3x C-47s assigned to WestCoast are ok to deploy to China?
2a. What about additional C-47/Dakota sqdns, that appear in Oz and SWPac as reinforcements?
3. What about the RDAF transports?
4. You said Hudsons and/or Blens (1s or 4s I take are ok), up to a max of 200... Ok.
5. What about upgrades? Converting a sqdn to C-47s is ok? Especially what about when teh new "pick your upgrade type" kicks in? Not sure if this will matter, but since many sqdns cross types (I know there's some RAF Buffalos that go to C-47s), so I don't know how the new rule will handle this.
6. Looks like you've got strict limits on fighters and bombers. Fine. What about recons and Patrols? Recons increase DL which increases damage done. Patrols can do recon and carry supply (from DH and Chadpur easily).
7. I saw you put some contraints on IJA units. What about the 8+ Chinese Divs assigned to SEAC at start? These historically fought in Burma, so should these be move OUT of theater, or can they be deployed into our scenario.
8. Do you want to add that the "scripted captures", that Burma Road gets closed in April?

You've heard me bang the drum about supply before, and you can see I'm keying in on it now. In one of my games, I'm doing "quite well" in China, and it's largely due to the fact that my guys are eating steak every night, instead of maggots.

Not trying to pick it apart. But I understand you're trying to create a true scenario (which I think one our mod-makers should pick up), and am actually trying to help (in a somewhat painful way).

I think you should post your answers here, so folks will know what we're trying to accomplish (and for the benefit of the mod-makers).

But you can also email me with turn/info at SHerlocker@Tampabay.Rr.Com.

Regards,
-F-



WiTP_Dude -> RE: China Only Game (1/27/2005 9:37:43 PM)

Hi Feinder, good to hear that you can play. Yes the rest of the war should be left alone. Both sides should put their ships back in port and stop any air patrols. The Allied player should move the units out of Palembang, they can go up the road to the next city. The rest of the world will be static but you will have to send some transports with supplies to keep islands from starving.

As for your questions:

1. Yes.
2. Yes.
2a. Yes.
3. I think there is only one Loadstar unit there. You can use that one but not the naval search patrol planes.
4. I think this max of 200 of bombers should be on a sliding scale. 50 in December, 100 in February, 150 in April, 200 in June. Is this realistic?
5. Didn't know about the Buffalos converting to C-47s. There probably should be a limit to how many Dakotas you can use. How many are used in your other games?
6. What type of planes are you writing about? We have to pretend that the Allies are worried about the Japanese invading Burma and maybe India too. So there are limits on what the Commonwealth can do to help China.
7. The Chinese divisions can be kept in China. You can also move them to India if you want to build them up using supply.
8. You can start invading Burma in March. The Burma road will be closed in two or three weeks after that.



Feinder -> RE: China Only Game (1/27/2005 10:45:22 PM)

1. Yes.
2. Yes.
2a. Yes.
3. I think there is only one Loadstar unit there. You can use that one but not the naval search patrol planes.
There's a Lockheed-something-or-other available also. Neither of these sqdns have a huge lift capacity (maybe 2k and 3k each).
4. I think this max of 200 of bombers should be on a sliding scale. 50 in December, 100 in February, 150 in April, 200 in June. Is this realistic?
I have no idea what "realistic" would be. I actually tried looking up what sqdns were actually used historically (10th Air Force), but the actual data is fairly sketchy as to what was available, used, and actually flyable. I've seen a number in the range of 45 C-47s actually -FLYING- somewhat consistanty. But if you want "realistic", I don't think anything flew over the hump until about April '42. Granted, they didn't see this as need until April, because Burma Road was open until April. And even then, I don't think the RAF ever had anything (much) to do with flying supplies into China. And certainly, the RDAF didn't do anything in that department. But if you allow me to use 50 December, I certainly will. And if you say I don't use any for the sake of historical accuracy, that's fine too.

5. Didn't know about the Buffalos converting to C-47s. There probably should be a limit to how many Dakotas you can use. How many are used in your other games?
Anything with a payload capacity flys into China in my other games (except USA non C-47 units, those are Knavey's toys). I have one in February 42, and one in January 42, so nothing has upgraded yet (and yes, they're not far progressed you could say). But again, -everything- is hauling rice, so sit in China is stable. If you'd like to leave it up me, I'd say that anything that upgrades to C-47/Dakota -by default- should be allowed to upgrade, so no switching. So the Buffalos (or whatever else) that upgrades to Dakotas are fine, but no switching something that wouldn't normally go that way. In fact, I'd say no switching paths anyways (regardless of type). Frankly, I don't think it's going to be game-winner/breaker if we say we have to keep to "vanilla" upgrades. If it means keeping Hurris vs. Oscars or whatever, it's not going to be anythign major, and would probably keep "concerns" to a minimum. Hm. I wonder if there's still a "default" upgrade with the new choices? Frag? Will we still know what the default setting is? or does it just give us a list to upgrade when they're ready? Is there a "don't mess with it" option, that allows for "vanilla" upgrades?

6. What type of planes are you writing about? We have to pretend that the Allies are worried about the Japanese invading Burma and maybe India too. So there are limits on what the Commonwealth can do to help China.
For example, the "worthless" WW1 bi-plane recons of the RDAF (1-hex range). They normally sit parked somewhere, until they upgrade. But when they do, they're F-5s, and I would happily store them Delhi until they coud fly missions over China. H_ll, I might even have the buggers flying in China as bi-planes if I can get the PPs to convert them (withing the existing constraints you have listed). Or in the case of patrols... Again anything with payload brings supplies. If you let me, I'll grab anything I can get my hands on (in this case the RDAF Dorniers, or even the PBY sqdns in PI could be useful). Historical? Nope. But neither is allowing me to use -any- units from the RAF...

7. The Chinese divisions can be kept in China. You can also move them to India if you want to build them up using supply.
ok

8. You can start invading Burma in March. The Burma road will be closed in two or three weeks after that.
You mean -you- can invade Burma in March. Easiest to just give you a pass to Myt.



===


I guess it's important to establish our goals here.

Are we trying to create a scenario, with historical units? then pull the cord and see what happens? (within the constraints of the game)

Or

Are we trying to create a "reasonable" scenario, that curbs historical accuracy, in favor of a "a good game" (given the current game constraints).



WiTP_Dude -> RE: China Only Game (1/27/2005 11:59:21 PM)

quote:

3. I think there is only one Loadstar unit there. You can use that one but not the naval search patrol planes.
There's a Lockheed-something-or-other available also. Neither of these sqdns have a huge lift capacity (maybe 2k and 3k each).


Yes, that can be used too.

quote:

4. I think this max of 200 of bombers should be on a sliding scale. 50 in December, 100 in February, 150 in April, 200 in June. Is this realistic?
I have no idea what "realistic" would be. I actually tried looking up what sqdns were actually used historically (10th Air Force), but the actual data is fairly sketchy as to what was available, used, and actually flyable. I've seen a number in the range of 45 C-47s actually -FLYING- somewhat consistanty. But if you want "realistic", I don't think anything flew over the hump until about April '42. Granted, they didn't see this as need until April, because Burma Road was open until April. And even then, I don't think the RAF ever had anything (much) to do with flying supplies into China. And certainly, the RDAF didn't do anything in that department. But if you allow me to use 50 December, I certainly will. And if you say I don't use any for the sake of historical accuracy, that's fine too.


No, what I mean by "realistic" is what the Allied player would actually be able to do in a bigger WiTP scenario. Can the Allies afford to use 300 bombers on supply missions for China? No, they have other missions to do like bombing airfields or attacking enemy ships. The gradual build up of bombers to drop rice is possible over time. The question is the number available.

quote:

5. Didn't know about the Buffalos converting to C-47s. There probably should be a limit to how many Dakotas you can use. How many are used in your other games?
Anything with a payload capacity flys into China in my other games (except USA non C-47 units, those are Knavey's toys). I have one in February 42, and one in January 42, so nothing has upgraded yet (and yes, they're not far progressed you could say). But again, -everything- is hauling rice, so sit in China is stable. If you'd like to leave it up me, I'd say that anything that upgrades to C-47/Dakota -by default- should be allowed to upgrade, so no switching. So the Buffalos (or whatever else) that upgrades to Dakotas are fine, but no switching something that wouldn't normally go that way. In fact, I'd say no switching paths anyways (regardless of type). Frankly, I don't think it's going to be game-winner/breaker if we say we have to keep to "vanilla" upgrades. If it means keeping Hurris vs. Oscars or whatever, it's not going to be anythign major, and would probably keep "concerns" to a minimum. Hm. I wonder if there's still a "default" upgrade with the new choices? Frag? Will we still know what the default setting is? or does it just give us a list to upgrade when they're ready? Is there a "don't mess with it" option, that allows for "vanilla" upgrades?


Yes, switching paths is not necessary for this playtest. You can upgrade the Buffalos to Dakotas and use them too.

quote:

6. What type of planes are you writing about? We have to pretend that the Allies are worried about the Japanese invading Burma and maybe India too. So there are limits on what the Commonwealth can do to help China.
For example, the "worthless" WW1 bi-plane recons of the RDAF (1-hex range). They normally sit parked somewhere, until they upgrade. But when they do, they're F-5s, and I would happily store them Delhi until they coud fly missions over China. H_ll, I might even have the buggers flying in China as bi-planes if I can get the PPs to convert them (withing the existing constraints you have listed). Or in the case of patrols... Again anything with payload brings supplies. If you let me, I'll grab anything I can get my hands on (in this case the RDAF Dorniers, or even the PBY sqdns in PI could be useful). Historical? Nope. But neither is allowing me to use -any- units from the RAF...


Does the Allied player have enough of these planes to shift some to use in China? Without having KB sneak up and sink some ships in India or Australia? This is the key question. History doesn't matter, only the game really matters.

quote:

8. You can start invading Burma in March. The Burma road will be closed in two or three weeks after that.
You mean -you- can invade Burma in March. Easiest to just give you a pass to Myt.


Yes, I am easily confused. [:D]

quote:


I guess it's important to establish our goals here.

Are we trying to create a scenario, with historical units? then pull the cord and see what happens? (within the constraints of the game)

Or

Are we trying to create a "reasonable" scenario, that curbs historical accuracy, in favor of a "a good game" (given the current game constraints).


We are trying to test how the Chinese theater will go in version 1.4 of scenario 15. The Chinese under your command will have the advantage of 100% prep points. The question is if you can stop the Japanese under my command from rolling over the Chinese or will the Chinese collapse like a house of cards. I will not play the theater too conservatively; I will take it to you with the maximum amount of force possible.



Feinder -> RE: China Only Game (1/28/2005 3:12:13 PM)

So are we ready to go on this?

"When do we start da killin' boss?"

Oh, and I don't mind 2-day turns, so we can do that if you want to. One or Two, doesn't matter to me.

Fire up a version of Scen 15 without the PH raid, and everything stood down, so we can minimize the "out of theater points".

Oh, and am I supposed to "give" you Hong Kong? or I am I evac'ing them? I figured you should have to fight for it, since it's in theater (and it's just going to be free points for you anyways).

Let's get this party started!
-F-



WiTP_Dude -> RE: China Only Game (1/28/2005 6:38:25 PM)

I'm working on it. No, I will just kill the Hong Kong garrison. Easier that way.



Feinder -> RE: China Only Game (1/31/2005 5:52:24 AM)

It's on it's way back at ya. Bleh, standing down everything takes forever.

Troops moving out of Palembang.

White flag being readied in Hong Kong.

All subs and TFs are heading to nearest port to disband (eceptions - USN CV TFs heading to Midway, because of IJN subs around PH). Best to put all the guns away, to make sure nobody else gets shot.

==

"5. 400 political points per month allowed to be used for China. "
Does this mean I spend 400 points per month for our game? or 400 points per month in China (for leader swaps etc). So if I convert the RDAF transport sqdns, does this count towards the 400 points per month?

-F-



WiTP_Dude -> RE: China Only Game (2/1/2005 1:42:24 AM)

Yes, political points are for anything that you do.



Feinder -> RE: China Only Game (2/1/2005 4:53:02 AM)

Ok!
-F-



Feinder -> RE: China Only Game (2/2/2005 4:29:44 PM)

Oh, so more things I thought of (and posting this on the main boards, for everyone's edification)...

3. Can transfer Kwantang area armies to China but must transfer them to China command using political points and must insure that Manchuria has a garrison sufficient to prevent activation.
Where is the Wang-Chung army? (sorry, I'm dating myself). Where is Kwantang Army? Those guys are in the East by Russia?

1. What are the "borders"?
There are (quite a few) guys prepped for Hanoi. Am I allowed (or supposed) to attack Hanoi? Can you attack me -from- Hanoi? I'd just as soon have a non-agression pact with the Vichy forces there. Or do I need to put somebody to guard the border?

FYI - There are bad-guys crawling into Tavoy and Malaya. Is this a "I forgot to change this?" or is this something I should worry about?

FYI - Palembang has been evactuated, and all RDN subs in the area have been returned to port. You may occupy at your leisure.

-F-



WiTP_Dude -> RE: China Only Game (2/2/2005 11:48:38 PM)

3. Sorry, I guess it is spelled Kwantung, not Kwantang. This is the army in Manchuria. They may not be moved into China unless the political points are paid.

http://www.bartleby.com/61/99/K0119900.html

I think Hanoi should be off limits. No Japanese can attack from there and no Chinese can invade Indo-China. Is that ok?

Also, it seems some unruly army officers have decided to invade Malay despite warnings from the highest places in the government. They will be dealt with.



Feinder -> RE: China Only Game (2/2/2005 11:58:15 PM)

(* sends delegation to the puppet Vichy government in Hanoi *)

I Feinder, "Hero and sole benevolent despot of the people of China", do agree to not send armed soldiers, peasants, or koala bears across the border into French Indo-China. We understand that no forces from French Indo-China will be allowed to cross the border, or they shall be greatly mauled by the the afore-mentioned armed koala bears.

Sincerely.
-F-



Knavey -> RE: China Only Game (2/3/2005 12:44:07 AM)

Don't you mean panda bears?



Feinder -> RE: China Only Game (2/3/2005 5:13:03 AM)

Being the "Hero and sole benevolent despot of the people of China" means I can call them anything I want.

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