How is Dismounted Infantry Modeled in the Game? (Full Version)

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Tbird3 -> How is Dismounted Infantry Modeled in the Game? (1/25/2005 7:11:34 PM)

The game looks great! However, as a professional grunt, I was wondering how dismounted infantry is modeled in the game. In one of the earlier AARs I noticed one of the players stating that Infantry could not dismount from their vehicles. Specifically, I am wondering if infantry and their supporting weapons (i.e. RPGs, LAWs, and MAWs, and all those other nasty anti-tank weapons) are included in the units capabilities. I would find it disappointing if the game doesn't account for the Queen of Battle! Infantry dug-in on close terrain is every tanker's worst nightmare! Once again the game looks awesome![:D]



Erik Rutins -> RE: How is Dismounted Infantry Modeled in the Game? (1/25/2005 8:11:43 PM)

Tbird,

Dismounted infantry squad weapons systems are included in the mechanized platoon stats, but FPG does not model infantry units separately, it's part of a mechanized squad unit. That's partly because of the nature of a modern Warsaw Pact vs. NATO confrontation in Northern and Central Germany, and partly because we wanted to finish this before 2010. [;)] It also leaves room for the engine to grow in any future releases that involve more infantry-oriented conflicts.

Regards,

- Erik



IronManBeta -> RE: How is Dismounted Infantry Modeled in the Game? (1/25/2005 8:43:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tbird3

The game looks great! However, as a professional grunt, I was wondering how dismounted infantry is modeled in the game. In one of the earlier AARs I noticed one of the players stating that Infantry could not dismount from their vehicles. Specifically, I am wondering if infantry and their supporting weapons (i.e. RPGs, LAWs, and MAWs, and all those other nasty anti-tank weapons) are included in the units capabilities. I would find it disappointing if the game doesn't account for the Queen of Battle! Infantry dug-in on close terrain is every tanker's worst nightmare! Once again the game looks awesome![:D]


Well, it is slightly abstract but not too bad. I made a few assumptions about the normal state of things and this is what they are:

1. When the unit is ordered to move the passengers will pile into their vehicles and travel inside (as opposed to on top). This will prevent them from firing their weapons effectively. Yes I know that there are often firing ports provided to let them fire from inside the vehicle, but *effective* fire from inside while on the move cross country seemed a bit of stretch.

2. Whenever the unit is not moving the passengers will automatically disembark and set up their weapons. Passenger carried weapns are described by appending a "d" for "dismount" to their identification tag. For example, a "LMG" is available when stopped or moving, and a "LMGd" is available only when stopped. Most of the weapons for infantry squads are dismount weapons and so will only be used when stationary.

3. When the passengers are disembarked their vehicle is assumed to retire a little to the rear but still keep in close support. The game locations (squares) are 500 m x 500 m so there is lots of space for them to get back without actually leaving the location altogether. This was usually doctrine (to a degree, the Soviets learned to vary it significantly in Afganistan) and is suitable for game purposes. The point is that the valuable MGs, ATGMs and the like mounted on the vehicles are still made available to support the most esteemed infantry should the need arise.

4. As the general commanding the whole shooting match you are not really too worried about what happens inside the individual squads attached to vehicles. Yes, you have a humanitarian concern but in the midst of the shooting all you really want to know is if the primary weapons they carry are functioning or not. If a couple of the men become casualties you would not expect to hear about it right away. For this reason I do not track losses down to individual men but simply track whether the squad as a whole is still functioning or not (subject to the usual fatigue and morale modifiers). If two squads in a unit get cut in half and then merge then the game will show only one squad continuing as a 'runner' and not showing the merging action itself. As a shorthand it will show the vehicle as destroyed but it may or may not have been in 'real life'.

5. When on the move, combat is resolved against the vehicles and the loss of the passengers is incidental. When stopped, the combat odds are worked out against the dismounted passengers and the loss of the vehicle is incidental. An abstraction yes, but it works.

6. At this game scale, troops on foot have no real mobility. As a result we gave everyone a vehicle. In the next version of the game we will allow fully dismounted (ie good old leg) infantry and dispense with the requirement of a vehicle. This will allow tiny 'forlorn hope' stay behind NATO ATGM teams for example that we don't have now, and also squads of troops that can operate independently of helicopter transport if they were airmobile troops. This could get really interesting as you can imagine but we had to draw the line somewhere for version 1.0 of the game and this is where we did it.

Good question!

Cheers, Rob.

Edit: I took so long to post this that Erik beat me to it! Erik's answer is correct too - the infantry and their vehicles are a total package in this game.



Tbird3 -> RE: How is Dismounted Infantry Modeled in the Game? (1/25/2005 10:09:36 PM)

Erik and Rob, thanks for the fast reply. I am much relieved by your responses and believe that I am sold on game.....at least for the initial purchase! [:D]I am very interested in this era for wargaming, primarily because as a young lieutenant and captain this is the war that I trained for almost exclusively. I am grateful that this war never happened, however, there is a slight nagging at the back of my mind that wonders what if?.........I have played both board and computer games that cover this era and still haven't found the game that captures my perceived "feel" for this fight. I hope this is it!

Rob, what you stated about the dismounted infantry makes very good sense for 80% of the fight during this era in Europe. The "mech warriors" ruled in NATO. I do hope that you are able to incorporate some of your mentioned changes in the future. Thanks again for quick and indepth response!

Always Forward!



Black Cat -> RE: How is Dismounted Infantry Modeled in the Game? (1/26/2005 8:02:27 AM)

Rob

From your response above can we assume that the " fire power" or whatever value you call it in the game of a dismounted Mech. Inf unit is higher then a moving Mounted unit, and if so how does that work out in the CRT or in the exchange of fire when the Inf. is dismounted. Also how are losses calulated ?

Just got the Game so sorry if I missed this in the manual which I`m waiting to print out.



Tommi -> RE: How is Dismounted Infantry Modeled in the Game? (1/26/2005 3:14:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobertCrandall
At this game scale, troops on foot have no real mobility.


Tell me about it! Haven't played FPG yet, but in TacOps (which is a similar type of game) dismounted/leg infantry move at snail's pace and likely won't be of any use without transport in a modern, mobile battle (at least when attacking), they just get left behind (perhaps guarding some static spot on the map).



Black Cat -> RE: How is Dismounted Infantry Modeled in the Game? (1/26/2005 5:19:00 PM)

AFAIK there hasn`t been any pure " Leg" Inf. in the US Army since the 1960`s all of the Divisions being either Mech or Air Mobile. It`s very doubtful that any Inf. would be far from their Tracks in any case, since they provide heavy fire support even in the case of the early M 113`s.

I`m still interested in knowing if there is any difference in combat power between mounted and dismounted Mech Inf. as modeled in the Game ( assuming it is )



Kelm -> RE: How is Dismounted Infantry Modeled in the Game? (1/26/2005 5:28:42 PM)

I know that this subject was already covered, but it is strange to see that the infantry was not built-in like distinct units in the game. I understand that's partly because of the nature of a modern Warsaw Pact vs. NATO confrontation in Northern and Central Germany, but in 1987 the estimates forces for the western TVD, projected a total of 63 Div mechanized inf for USSR and 29 for the NSPV. Moreover in Soviet doctrines, the infantry would have been used apart from these vehicules, like a component distinct from the vehicules with the combat.
Another thing that i found strange is the weakness of the soviet units, i have finished the scen 1, and i have only loose 3 Challenger and 1 APC vehicles...
Can be that is approached in others scenarios, but normally each element of Soviet attack should be supported by helicopters and attack aircrafts. BTW i have for the moment try one time the first tutorial with PV, and it's very difficult of starting an assault without aerial cover.

But like at this time, i have not yet launched any other scenarios, I am not yet sure, that is approached further in the game.



Tbird3 -> RE: How is Dismounted Infantry Modeled in the Game? (1/26/2005 6:53:46 PM)

Black Cat I must disagree about the use of Dismounted Infantry and "Leg" Infantry. The US Army has maintained "Leg" infantry in several categories. During the 80's the Army deployed the 7th Infantry Division (light), 25th Infantry Division (Light), 10th Moutain Division (Light). The 2nd Infantry Division in Korea consisted of 2 "leg" brigades. This doesn't even count the 101st Division which really is just a leg infantry unit with lots of helicopters and the 82nd Airborne Divison which a "leg" infantry unit the second it hits the drop zone. Additionally, there were a multitude of Seperate Infantry Brigades in the National Guard that were and still are "leg" Infantry. The "light" divisions were created specifically to give the Army the ability to rapidily deploy combat power any where in the world. When you add in the Special Operations units such as Special Forces and the Ranger Regiment you have even more leg infantry.

In reference to the game I think the current model for dismounted Infantry leaves something to be desired which Rob Crandall readily admits. However, that being said, the current model is adequate to meet probably 70% to 80% of combat situations to be played in the current scenarios.

I hope that this interesting game continues to evolve and many of our request are incorporated in future expansions.

Regards

Tbird3



Black Cat -> RE: How is Dismounted Infantry Modeled in the Game? (1/26/2005 8:00:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tbird3

Black Cat I must disagree about the use of Dismounted Infantry and "Leg" Infantry. The US Army has maintained "Leg" infantry in several categories. During the 80's the Army deployed the 7th Infantry Division (light), 25th Infantry Division (Light), 10th Moutain Division (Light). The 2nd Infantry Division in Korea consisted of 2 "leg" brigades. This doesn't even count the 101st Division which really is just a leg infantry unit with lots of helicopters and the 82nd Airborne Divison which a "leg" infantry unit the second it hits the drop zone. Additionally, there were a multitude of Seperate Infantry Brigades in the National Guard that were and still are "leg" Infantry. The "light" divisions were created specifically to give the Army the ability to rapidily deploy combat power any where in the world. When you add in the Special Operations units such as Special Forces and the Ranger Regiment you have even more leg infantry.

In reference to the game I think the current model for dismounted Infantry leaves something to be desired which Rob Crandall readily admits. However, that being said, the current model is adequate to meet probably 70% to 80% of combat situations to be played in the current scenarios.

I hope that this interesting game continues to evolve and many of our request are incorporated in future expansions.

Regards

small Tbird3


I should have been more specific on units that fought with/from their Mounts and those that were Motorized.

I`m sure your correct on the specialized units like the Rangers and Spec. Ops units however I believe that since 1944 the Army was able to provide motor transport ( Trucks ) to all or most of the leg units ( I can try and provide the references ) for extended movements to the battle zone, ( where they moved forward on foot ), and in fact most of the US Army was Motorized ( If not Mechanized ) since after WW II.

I am surprised that the the 2 Brigades of the 2nd. Division in Korea are not mounted, with at least M 113`s, but I defer to your knowledge as a serving Infantry man.

As an aside when you add the several ACR`s that were formed in the `60- 70`s which were in fact all tracked and really the size of small Divisions ( created to increase the size of the Army while getting around the political problems of adding more Divisions ) you in fact have a heavy Armor Mech. Army designed to meet the Russian Tank Armies on the North German Plain.

I agree that FG is interesing, _however_ I hope it will follow the path set by HPS, Tac Ops, Matrix`s own WITP and other games in that improvements/enhancements are retrofited into the original Game , while the newer expansions, necessary for economic reasons tor Matrix/Rob, take the game to other locations and times. I think this is an important issue for Wargamers, I know it is for me.

Best Regards
Rich



IronManBeta -> RE: How is Dismounted Infantry Modeled in the Game? (1/26/2005 9:02:35 PM)

1. I originally tried to have just a single combat value for each unit but quickly realized that no one number could properly express all the capabilities of so many different weapon systems that are found in a typical modern infantry squad and vehicle.

I broke down and created a list of all the individual subunits (aka platforms, aka vehicles) in a unit and then for each subunit, a list of all weapons carried and whether they were instrinsic to the subunit or carried and must be fired when dismounted. Combat between units is resolved by going through these lists of subunits and then of weapons vs the target subunit and seeing if they are participating in this particular duel, within range, effective against the target, etc, etc. It is more complex that way but more satisfying when you results work out.

If you launch the unit browser by double clicking on a unit you can see what the subunits contained are. If you launch the Hardware Inspector from the within the unit browser you can see what the weapons are and get an idea of some of their capabilities.

2. If the target subunit is seen, then aquired as a target, then hit, and the hit is effective then the subunit will be rendered a 'mission kill' and will no longer be a runner or participate further in the scenario. A little hit explosion will be played so that the viewer(s) can get an indication that something just happened. Not all misison kills mean that the target was blown to smithereens. It may something as minor as a broken track and there are no spares, or a radio antenna is sheared off, or the commander with his head outside the hatch becomes a casualty. It would also include pyschological cases where the crew simply decides to lie low after a close one and let someone else carry the brunt of the risk. Contrariwise, not all damage results in a mission kill, so please don't equate the two directly. To answer your second question: Losses are equal to the number of subunits that are no longer runners.

Good question, cheers, Rob.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Black Cat

Rob

From your response above can we assume that the " fire power" or whatever value you call it in the game of a dismounted Mech. Inf unit is higher then a moving Mounted unit, and if so how does that work out in the CRT or in the exchange of fire when the Inf. is dismounted. Also how are losses calulated ?

Just got the Game so sorry if I missed this in the manual which I`m waiting to print out.



IronManBeta -> RE: How is Dismounted Infantry Modeled in the Game? (1/26/2005 9:04:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Black Cat

I agree that FG is interesing, _however_ I hope it will follow the path set by HPS, Tac Ops, Matrix`s own WITP and other games in that improvements/enhancements are retrofited into the original Game , while the newer expansions, necessary for economic reasons tor Matrix/Rob, take the game to other locations and times. I think this is an important issue for Wargamers, I know it is for me.


I couldn't imagine doing it any other way.

Rob



Mike Bozyk -> RE: How is Dismounted Infantry Modeled in the Game? (1/27/2005 5:50:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobertCrandall


2. Whenever the unit is not moving the passengers will automatically disembark and set up their weapons. Passenger carried weapns are described by appending a "d" for "dismount" to their identification tag. For example, a "LMG" is available when stopped or moving, and a "LMGd" is available only when stopped. Most of the weapons for infantry squads are dismount weapons and so will only be used when stationary.




Mike Bozyk -> RE: How is Dismounted Infantry Modeled in the Game? (1/27/2005 5:53:23 AM)

Well I messed that up. Anyway, I'm wondering if there is anywhere in the game, Unit Inspector, Hardware Inspector, etc., where the "d" weapons are listed? I can't seem to find them.

Mike



IronManBeta -> RE: How is Dismounted Infantry Modeled in the Game? (1/28/2005 12:13:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Bozyk

Well I messed that up. Anyway, I'm wondering if there is anywhere in the game, Unit Inspector, Hardware Inspector, etc., where the "d" weapons are listed? I can't seem to find them.

Mike


D'oh! I used to have it in the Hardware Inspector and then I 'prettied it up' out of existance. That was not terribly smart of me. I will put "(dis)" or some such thing after the weapon name on the tab labels for the first patch. In the meantime, check out the pdf file "FPG - Platforms.pdf". The Arms List contains the tags of the weapons carried by the subunit / platform and this shows the "d"s. See below for an example.

Thanks for pointing this out. Cheers, Rob.

[image]local://upfiles/5809/Qn384811383.jpg[/image]



Mike Bozyk -> RE: How is Dismounted Infantry Modeled in the Game? (1/28/2005 3:04:29 AM)

Thanks Rob.

Mike



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