Why Tactical Maximum Rating got included (Full Version)

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StCyr -> Why Tactical Maximum Rating got included (1/25/2005 10:59:51 PM)

"Empires in Arms is a strategic and diplomatic game for up to 7 players that covers the Napoleonic wars from 1805 to 1815. The military counters in the game generally represents corps and fleets...".
The (land) war in EIA is based on the corps system. So you have to reflect on the different abilities of our commanders. Ney(2.4.1) for example got a good tactical rating, but u never should have him in command of a whole armyof several corps ( for sure he wont make it to Berlin on his own and will mess up somewhere in Belgium). IE Massena(4.3.3) will have no reduction of his tactical level when he commands 3 Corps, while Ney in the same situation would become a 2.2 Leader. Napoleon and Wellington are equal in leadership - as long as the force is limited to 3 Corps. At any larger number, Napoleon will be in advantage.
If Matrix is going to skip the Tactical Maximum Rating(TMR), there will be no difference at this point anymore. Davout could lead the Grande Armee the Russia, no matter how many corps to command, nearly as good as Napoleon would do. Trouble in Spain while Napo is at Kiev ? Just remove him and replace the Emperor at Madrid - Davout can handle the russian affair, or even Ney if u don´t care about outflank and withdraw.
Nobody would anymore have to split an army to avoid a malus from a bad TMR. Some nations got large coprs, some only smaller ? Doesn´t matter anymore for combat, just stack them. Davout is moving with 2 corps towards St. Peterburg ? No need to calculate in advance about leader modifaction by sending too many cops vs him- just go.

Indeed it is funny- Matrix managed to change the whole look of the map when there was no need to do so, and also is going to ruin the cops system and so the whole game in my eyes by ignoring the rules about Tactical Maximum Rating. Congrats guys. For years now I am waiting for a PC version of this game- for sure I will not buy a crippled version.



2gaulle -> RE: Who to ruin EIA (1/25/2005 11:25:27 PM)

I must agree with St Cyr, itès doesnèt look like a good idea to not use the TMR.

TMR is a full part of EIA



mattcooper5 -> RE: Who to ruin EIA (1/25/2005 11:35:59 PM)

you can't call this game EiA if there are no tactical max numbers. its an integral part of the game. i agree with everything StCyr said.

We don't want to start a revolt here and we understand not everything is going to make it, but this needs to be in the release.

*grabs pitchfork*



simone.donnini -> RE: Who to ruin EIA (1/26/2005 12:39:29 AM)

I wont grab my pitchfork (lol) but I surely agree that the Tactical rating is a MUST!!



StCyr -> RE: Who to ruin EIA (1/26/2005 1:07:07 AM)

I PROMISE to buy 2 copies of the game if the Tactical Maximum rating will be included, and never to use a pitchfork against anybody!



donkuchi19 -> RE: Who to ruin EIA (1/26/2005 1:16:50 AM)

If worst comes to worst, you could always play it as a house rule.



YohanTM2 -> RE: Who to ruin EIA (1/26/2005 1:33:11 AM)

I must admit this is quite a surprise and frankly I do not understand the logic. After constant delays to be hit with this as the game nears completion hard to comprehend. They may have lost our group in Toronto.

I have been busy playtesting GGWaW so have not kept up here lately.

Is there an explanation from Marshall anywhere? I would like to understand his logic.

HERE COME THE KILLER STACKS



StCyr -> RE: Who to ruin EIA (1/26/2005 1:34:54 AM)

quote:

If worst comes to worst, you could always play it as a house rule.


Houserule ? You don´t mean playing the Matrix EIA, do you ?



2gaulle -> RE: Who to ruin EIA (1/26/2005 5:03:00 AM)

quote:

If worst comes to worst, you could always play it as a house rule.


you mean like with Battelground Talonsoft series. no way[:@][:@][:@][:@]



fjbn -> RE: Who to ruin EIA (1/26/2005 3:03:54 PM)

About TMR, you talk about French leaders, but the effect is still more important in british leader. They are all good but they have a poor TMR, so, if TMR doesn´t exist, Wellington is as good as Napoleon; Moore as good as, for example, Kutuzov, and Beresford is just like Soult or Castaños.

TMR is very important because it reflects the ability to lead huge armies. Some people could be very good with small armies but not as good in great battles.



Camile Desmoulins -> RE: Who to ruin EIA (1/26/2005 3:28:20 PM)

Yes, I thing the same. Some leaders has in the TMR his powwerful note, and some others (like Ney, for instance, 4-5-1) their bigger weakness. This allows that there is too many Napoleons in France, and that smaller leaders (as Beresford or Jerome) can acquire important roles. [X(]

I think that Matrix should reconsider this idea, or to introduce it as option. As I always said, EiA is a game in which to suppress or to add small things can cause enormous changes and imbalances [:-]



Erik Rutins -> RE: Who to ruin EIA (1/26/2005 4:16:53 PM)

Hi guys,

We're taking a second look at this, no promises yet, but we certainly don't have listed in any of our planning documents "Ruin EIA". [8|]

Regards,

- Erik



2gaulle -> RE: Who to ruin EIA (1/26/2005 4:34:10 PM)

quote:

As I always said, EiA is a game in which to suppress or to add small things can cause enormous changes and imbalances


absolutly



ancient doctor -> RE: Who to ruin EIA (1/26/2005 4:53:41 PM)

I like the tactical rating in the original game but i think it should be allowed for an gradual increase of it if the general gathers more experience in battlefield(the way it usually happens)up to a max of 6(or whatever Napiu had).



eg0master -> RE: Who to ruin EIA (1/26/2005 7:04:25 PM)

Exactly what post am I missing (I have serchad a few threads now)?

Facts:
A) There is a screenshot of leader stats where there is no tactical max rating.
B) One of the beta testers does not know if it is in the game (but not shown) or if it is not in the game.

If I have missed some post pleas let me know because I can not (for the love of god) see how the facts stated above could unleash such anger when we know nothing...

For the record: EiA without tactical max rating will only produce monster stacks



ardilla -> RE: Who to ruin EIA (1/26/2005 8:36:24 PM)

Facts.

I notice this in the beta version while playing, I realize that there were not MAX_TAT_RAT, so I asked about it to de developers.

Answers were that it is not implemented and that all leaders can carry at most 10 corps.

I answer that this is a big deal because of the balance of the game, mainly in the victory points scale....

Someone here asked about the Tax max rat and I told him.

MG had talked about review this, hope they can and it doesnt take much time from developers, but it may cost, since they have to change the max corps in an area to 12 from 10 now and add the max tac ratings and take it into account for battles.

That is all.

BTW, I think that in one AH General, about erratas from the original game, Welly was a 4.5.3 not a 5.5.3 like in the counter, right?
This is very important under my point of view since this will cause him to withdraw always with cavalry corps under his command....



NeverMan -> RE: Who to ruin EIA (1/26/2005 10:57:00 PM)

So, let me get this straight, every leader can carry up to 10 corps without any penalties?

OK, now I am definitely NOT buying this game. It's sad to see such a great game continue to go down the tubes due to poor advised "tweaks" or "changes" in the rules.

Sad, sad, sad.



ktotwf -> RE: Who to ruin EIA (1/26/2005 11:04:54 PM)

WAY WAY WAY OVERREACTING. All of you.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Who to ruin EIA (1/26/2005 11:25:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ktotwf
WAY WAY WAY OVERREACTING. All of you.


Yes, definitely. Relax, have a beer everyone, please.

Regards,

- Erik



Regeurk -> RE: Who to ruin EIA (1/26/2005 11:29:39 PM)

I think if everyone goes to message ID 773980 in the thread labelled "EIA Setup -- 'View Available Counters,'" posted by Greyshaft, we will see that Tactical Maxmimum Ratings are being used by Matrix, although they are slightly modified from the original game. The essence, however, appears to have been preserved. I may be reading it wrong, but this is how it appears to my eyes.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Who to ruin EIA (1/26/2005 11:39:50 PM)

Thanks. To everyone who is upset about this, as I posted above, we're going to discuss what we've got and possibly re-evaluate this. Please keep all your gaskets in place until you hear back from us. Thanks.

Regards,

- Erik



Marshall Ellis -> RE: Who to ruin EIA (1/27/2005 3:32:34 AM)

Hey all:

Deep breath and count to 10.

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10 ... Whhhhheeeeeeeeeeeeeeew!

We're going to add the leader's tactical maximum rating!

Thank you



ktotwf -> RE: Who to ruin EIA (1/27/2005 3:46:42 AM)

Wow, people whine and moan and they get rewarded.



David Heath -> RE: With Your Help We Will Make EIA a GREAT GAME (1/27/2005 4:15:10 AM)

Hello Guys

Please remember that this game is still in major beta testing stage and we are not saying its final. StCry, 2gaulle, mattcooper5 and everyone else you need to give us some time to at least finish beta testing. I talked with Marshall today and he has it on his list to do and it has been on his to do list for some time. Guys let me make this clear, Matrix has a great rep in listening to its customers and this time is no different. So before pulling out your hair out and running out of the room give us a chance to respond and work on the problem. The main reason we develop our games in the open like this is to hear what your thoughts are. So once again let me thank you for your support and to let you know we are on the job.

David Heath



Hoche -> RE: With Your Help We Will Make EIA a GREAT GAME (1/27/2005 4:23:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Heath

Hello Guys

Please remember that this game is still in major beta testing stage and we are not saying its final. StCry, 2gaulle, mattcooper5 and everyone else you need to give us some time to at least finish beta testing. I talked with Marshall today and he has it on his list to do and it has been on his to do list for some time. Guys let me make this clear, Matrix has a great rep in listening to its customers and this time is no different. So before pulling out your hair out and running out of the room give us a chance to respond and work on the problem. The main reason we develop our games in the open like this is to hear what your thoughts are. So once again let me thank you for your support and to let you know we are on the job.

David Heath


I had faith that Matrix would do the right thing. Keep up the good work Dave and Marshall.



pasternakski -> RE: With Your Help We Will Make EIA a GREAT GAME (1/27/2005 5:14:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Heath

Hello Guys

Please remember that this game is still in major beta testing stage and we are not saying its final. StCry, 2gaulle, mattcooper5 and everyone else you need to give us some time to at least finish beta testing. I talked with Marshall today and he has it on his list to do and it has been on his to do list for some time. Guys let me make this clear, Matrix has a great rep in listening to its customers and this time is no different. So before pulling out your hair out and running out of the room give us a chance to respond and work on the problem. The main reason we develop our games in the open like this is to hear what your thoughts are. So once again let me thank you for your support and to let you know we are on the job.

David Heath

So 90 percent of the way through development you are confronted by three or four people who have identified a design element (and it is a significant one) that they assert is awry. This is no time to talk about what a warm little club we are and how hugs and kisses are better than hacks and slashes.

Is the basic design competent or not? I sure as hell don't want to go through another year of acrimonious screaming back and forth with goofy modding and ad hoc alteration like has been going on with WitP.

Either design a game and publish it or turn your business into a process of "we think we have this half-assed idea for a game and we'd like for you to provide the ideas to finish it for us, and be so kind as to excuse the glaring deficiencies in what you bought, because we are all wonderful human beings, after all."



2gaulle -> RE: With Your Help We Will Make EIA a GREAT GAME (1/27/2005 5:45:28 AM)

quote:

Please remember that this game is still in major beta testing stage and we are not saying its final. StCry, 2gaulle, mattcooper5 and everyone else you need to give us some time to at least finish beta testing.


all I could said is stay close to the bordgame rules, don't try to remove one part because you will automatically loose your time in redoing everything.



NeverMan -> RE: Who to ruin EIA (1/27/2005 5:55:59 AM)

OK, pats, that was WAY harsh. Damn.

I partly agree with it though.

I appreciate the fact that Matrix Games listens to it's customers, except in this case. I don't think it's appropriate here. Too many people who haven't even played the game, or were hoping for an original have managed to get their ideas in the mix, not to mention some of the EiH rules have crept in.

In the case of EiA, I think Matrix would have been better off just doing it and not asking people for their opinions.

All in all, this is just my opinion. I just hope Matrix's EiA is very close to the boardgame, so I can enjoy playing it. Otherwise, there are always lesser games.



Erik Rutins -> RE: With Your Help We Will Make EIA a GREAT GAME (1/27/2005 6:11:22 AM)

Pasternakski,

quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski
So 90 percent of the way through development you are confronted by three or four people who have identified a design element (and it is a significant one) that they assert is awry. This is no time to talk about what a warm little club we are and how hugs and kisses are better than hacks and slashes.

Is the basic design competent or not? I sure as hell don't want to go through another year of acrimonious screaming back and forth with goofy modding and ad hoc alteration like has been going on with WitP.

Either design a game and publish it or turn your business into a process of "we think we have this half-assed idea for a game and we'd like for you to provide the ideas to finish it for us, and be so kind as to excuse the glaring deficiencies in what you bought, because we are all wonderful human beings, after all."


At some point, you're going to have to let this go. [8D] We've made very few course changes on this product and have been solidly focused on EiA/EiH throughout.

Regards,

- Erik



ktotwf -> RE: With Your Help We Will Make EIA a GREAT GAME (1/27/2005 7:33:21 AM)

Wow. This thread is a huge grown man pissing contest.

Go get laid or something, video games aren't all there is in the world.



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