RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945



Message

Mr.Frag -> RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price (2/3/2005 11:12:40 PM)

quote:

But as a pricing strategy guy if everyone who bought the game at $70 really does think the price is fine then Matrix could have gotten more money for it and the current price may be too low because the Grognard market (judging from these forums) is price insensitive.


Agree with you there ... I really doubt any of those who have bought the game would not have paid $100 had it been that price ... Frankly, looking at forums of games that cost <$50 then looking at this forum ... I'm glad they charged what they did. This place would be like Madcow's if people were not honestly interested in the game, and the cheaper the game is, the more of the fringe folks buy it then are not happy and post non-stop tripe.

I don't know if it's Matrix in general, or the class of people who play this games ... we might fight about stuff, but we do so with silk gloves on.



Feinder -> RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price (2/3/2005 11:22:36 PM)

I'd actually agree that a demo could be a good thing, under the right circumstances.

The demo could be just the Coral Sea scenario. There's plenty of crap in that for the player to see what the game is about. He can still be wow'd by the detail and complexity (even tho he really is only seeing the tip of the iceberg). He'd also see the rest of them map, and go, "You mean I get stuff all the way over here in Karchi!". Coral Sea would make an excellent demo.

That being said, this is the part where "under the right circumstances" bites you in the ass.

WitP isn't marketed to the masses. Most of the sales of this game are by us, the clowns who were waiting to buy it in the first place (and then rammed it down the throats of a friend to buy it too). I noticed (somewhat disappointedly), that Matrix did -not- include WitP in it's full page ad for Korson Pocket and WaW in "WW2 History" magazine this month. But space is money, I realize Matrix is trying to push those two titles because they -do- appeal to the wider audience. So the round-about comment is that, "What good does it do you to put out a demo, when most people aren't going to see it anyways?" You're going to sell a $10 demo on the website? Why bother. How many lost sales are there? Saying "Me and all my friends want to buy this game" isn't really -that- many people. It's one of the classic "what do we do" about retail. It's hard to know how many people didn't buy your product, but wanted to (that's another VERY long discussion, but I'll skip that). I suppose you -could- put a free Coral Sea demo on the site, that really doesn't cost you anything but bandwidth.

Personally, I'd stamp all the World at War adn Korson Pocket CDs with the Coral Sea scenario included. The masses will be more inclined to buy WaW anyways, so give 'em a free taste of WitP. If they say, "I gotta put that on Chirstmas list!" then you've sold two titles, not just one.

But WitP is -not- a product for the masses. A fee demo is. It costs money to make. It costs money to distribute. Yes, it would pull in some sales, but you've to weigh how many sales you're actually going get out of it.

As pointed out earlier, wargames that are attracted to WitP tend to be willing to spend the money on it, whether they have the money or not. They don't make as many purchases as general population computer gamers. The make a few purchase, and make them count. H_ll, some of you knuckleheads are still running on P2 machines, with barely enough ram to make the cursor blink (which artfully illustrates my point).

Again, yes some would buy the game if a demo was available, but the real issue is the cost of distributing the demo, not the question of it's availablity.

-F-



2ndACR -> RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price (2/3/2005 11:47:22 PM)

Don't be knocking us knuckleheads that use our old basement machines to run this own.[:-]

You are going to give us a inferiority complex.[:'(]



Jaws_slith -> RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price (2/4/2005 12:03:57 AM)

Well to be honest, I buy a lot of games but I was not amused by the price.. especially not when I got the Europe TAX bones.[:@]

One of the most important questions is … at what buyers group do you aim…. I’m not sure if I would have paid $100 for the game without even seeing it.

The game is worth it’s money and I agree we will play this even in 10 years (when nothing better comes up of course) A demo or a movie can draw people over the line. Not every body can spend $70 as easily as some people on this forum do. Not even mention the non US and Western Europe players… they hardly have a system to play WitP on.

IMHO don’t play king of the Hill but try to seek as many possibilities to reach your buyers group.


Maybe some day those group is going to buy whole Matrix.[;)]



Rossj -> RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price (2/4/2005 1:40:28 AM)

I agree with you...I don't have a problem with $70- either...I just think that they could sell more in boxed form for $50 and as such expand the customer base...make more money...make more improvements...start more projects



Bodhi -> RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price (2/4/2005 1:57:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rossj

I agree with you...I don't have a problem with $70- either...I just think that they could sell more in boxed form for $50 and as such expand the customer base...make more money...make more improvements...start more projects


The price issue has come up numerous times, and personally I think it may be too low. I tend to agree with others that the price of this game for those who really want this type of game is inelastic. I don't believe it's a game that has wide appeal. I don't mean that in an exclusive sense (i.e. you're not a real grognard unless you play WitP) [:D], more likely you need to be some sort of micromanager with megalomanic tendencies. As for making more money and starting new projects/games (with lower price and wider appeal), 2by3 are doing that with the World at War and Civil War games. After this next patch I doubt they'll be any major work done on WitP (just my opinion before anyone starts shouting) [:'(]. I think the best we can hope for is that some time in the future 2by3 allow some community based effort to take the game forward.



Stavka_lite -> RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price (2/4/2005 5:12:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rossj

I agree with you...I don't have a problem with $70- either...I just think that they could sell more in boxed form for $50 and as such expand the customer base...make more money...make more improvements...start more projects

Don't forget folks That packaging is very expensive and when you incorporate a middle man such as a store, you further cut the profit of margin down alot. I would venture to say, and this is just a guess, that Matrix would only make 25% of the profit off the game that they do now if they sold it in stores which means they would have sell 4 times as many games AND all the 15 year old FPS players would be screaming all over the forums about how hard it is to play and possibly and unjustly damage Matrix's reputation. I think their marketing could use some work but their pricing and selling strategy is right on the mark.



33Vyper -> RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price (2/4/2005 6:23:43 AM)

Damn straight Stavka...I dont think there would be anything worse than a bunch of 15 year old PS2 or Xbox junkies buying this masterpiece...not understanding a damn thing about it and complaining daily about how unplayable the game is.



Cmdrcain -> RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price (2/4/2005 10:20:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greco, Thomas A
golf is $25 hr

Jeez, when you consider the amount of time I spend chasing down balls in the deep rough and the woods, I get even better value than that.

quote:

Also, a free demo is available. Just download Pacwar and imagine what a bunch of nitpicking, anal grogrards can do with that engine if you give them capital and 13 years to work on it.

I disagree with this. PacWar is not the progenitor for the UV system (which includes WitP and no other titles so far - and probably never will, considering what the devs have said). It was a weekly turn game set on a map where movement was strictly controlled by a (dare I say it) matrix of paths. It was quite a simple game, actually, with elements that were easily understood and outcomes that left very little for discussion in forums where the itinerary is "wah wah wah, I want my side to win, so change the game to suit me or I'll have a hissy fit and mod it to show you how bad it can really be." It was published, it worked, and the more people f#cked with it, the worse it got (sorry, Matrix, but the last mess you came up with is unforgiveable).

UV came from the direct lineage of War in the South Pacific. Some of its idiosyncrasies (the most notable of which is the "Japanese Death Star" phenomenon) are fully recognizable to those who played the old game. WitP was an overly ambitious attempt to bring that genesis to full fruition. It failed, but, what the hell, it was a noble failure.

So, we play among the ruins. Grigsby moves on.



Sighhh

War in the South Pacific was A title like Carriers at War (first version) that were both the progenitors to Pacific War (Pacwar)

WITSP was out in 80's for c-64

PACwar was a 1990's PC game it was an update to WITSP/CAW

CAW had its own update too.

There would been no UV, War in the South Pacific but for the older WITSP/CAW and Pacwar which formed the fan base and the demand for an updated game of Pacific War, so UV WITSP and present WITP DO have roots in PACwar which has its roots in the older WITSP/CAW

Btw original WITSP, CAW,Pacwar, all were Grigsby games
[:'(]



Rossj -> RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price (2/5/2005 12:33:10 AM)

Even if packaging and distribution was $40...and I doubt it would be that high...they'd still take in a few bucks and increase the fan base...somebody posted that we don't wan't a bunch of xbox junkies...I dont think that is an issue...look, I'm mot a distribution expert, but I don't believe there's mush risk in producing 5,000 boxed versions for distro to software stores...even if 2by3/matrix broke even we'd essentially double the fan base and generate more interest for future upgrades or new projects



Burzmali -> RE: ebay offerings (2/5/2005 2:35:50 AM)

Silly people, everything is available on e-bay [:'(]

Here's 2, after 5 minutes of looking.

The price is reasonably high now, but it will come down.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=62053&item=8166324388&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=80338&item=5744883588&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

As you've pointed out, grognards are insensitive to price, but a reasonably priced game would be accessible to a much larger marketplace. I won't argue that it's Matrix's choice to set the price high, it does indicate that they didn't have high hopes for the game, but if they had been right, we wouldn't be having this conversation now [:)]

And comparing WITP to anything in a $/hr is kind of stupid. For instance, even if you plan to get 3 years of "enjoyment" out of the game, who knows what is going to be released in a year and half? Furthermore, I have paid $0.00 for Nethack and have recieved around 50 hours of entertainment, so by your logic, the only games I should ever play are demos and freewares [sm=crazy.gif].



mlees -> RE: ebay offerings (2/5/2005 4:45:25 AM)

quote:

Furthermore, I have paid $0.00 for Nethack and have recieved around 50 hours of entertainment, so by your logic, the only games I should ever play are demos and freewares .


No fair dividing by zero!

Seriously, the argument about value per hour played is a reasonably valid one, in so far as it indicates that the customer who spent the money seems satisfied that they got their money's worth. It should be taken as a "loosely defined, rule of thumb" anecdotal argument. You should not live your gaming life by creating a spreadsheet and trying to evaluate on whether you like a game because of an arcane (cost analysis) formula.

Some people spend huge amounts of money collecting miniature knicknacks, or Elvis memorabilia, or "art", or grunge rock, or whatever. You earned it, you spend it however you please. If you think that $70 is too much for any PC game, fine. That's up to you.

The free market forces will decide whether the price set by Matrix (2by3?) was a good call. I think the unstated worry (among the fanbase) here is that a game that did not sell well will not be supported with future patches or expansions. I don't see that to be a problem with Matrix. In any case, I haven't seen very many games supported beyond two years after release at the very most, and a lot that are, have forums here at Matrix.[:D]



Mike Scholl -> RE: ebay offerings (2/5/2005 5:57:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Burzmali

As you've pointed out, grognards are insensitive to price, but a reasonably priced game would be accessible to a much larger marketplace. I won't argue that it's Matrix's choice to set the price high, it does indicate that they didn't have high hopes for the game, but if they had been right, we wouldn't be having this conversation now [:)]



"reasonably priced"? Given the HUGE scope, scale, and detail of this game; coupled
with the obvious reality that it was going to require almost as much support after it's
release as it took to bring it to market (simply because such a small design team had
bitten off such a massive project, and flaws and bugs were inevitable); I would say
that $125 would have been more than "reasonable". You cheapskates seem to think
that because you can buy a stripped down pick-up truck for $15,000; you ought to be
able to get an 18-wheeler for the same price because they are both trucks.



TheHellPatrol -> RE: ebay offerings (2/5/2005 7:13:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl


"reasonably priced"? Given the HUGE scope, scale, and detail of this game; coupled
with the obvious reality that it was going to require almost as much support after it's
release as it took to bring it to market (simply because such a small design team had
bitten off such a massive project, and flaws and bugs were inevitable); I would say
that $125 would have been more than "reasonable". You cheapskates seem to think
that because you can buy a stripped down pick-up truck for $15,000; you ought to be
able to get an 18-wheeler for the same price because they are both trucks."

..................................Amen, Brother! [;)].



Burzmali -> RE: ebay offerings (2/5/2005 7:13:44 PM)

So, if one game has twice as large a map and twice as many unit types it should cost twice as much?



pasternakski -> RE: ebay offerings (2/5/2005 8:53:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Burzmali

So, if one game has twice as large a map and twice as many unit types it should cost twice as much?

Yeah, it's a "cost per byte" (CPB) calculation.

Bigger, more ambitious games cost more to develop because they take more people more time to get the job done. So, the price is higher.

If it takes one guy two hours to walk across the bridge, how long will it take five guys ... ?



TheHellPatrol -> RE: ebay offerings (2/5/2005 10:52:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Burzmali

So, if one game has twice as large a map and twice as many unit types it should cost twice as much?
ROFL[8|]...Witp isn't even close to anything that even has a map, except UV, and the scale is exponentialy larger. It took a HUGE effort to develop this game, and accordingly, it requires some effort to "enjoy" all it has to offer. This is truly a monster of a "game" and there is nothing that you can compare it to in all reality...it is priceless IMO. Personally, i think they sold it as "inexpensive"[:D] as they did/do so that more people would be able to experience the extraordinary magnitude of the Pacific War. I said from day 1 that it was worth way more $, and it is...period. Of course, for the sake of argument, there are those that would rather spend their time searching for the "enchanted bow of butt-butter", or sending out peasants for "100 wood etc.", and to them spending "x" amount of money on Witp would be redundant[;)].
Basically, as in life, if you have to ask how much it is...you can't afford it. If you are a wargamer in your heart and soul then you cannot put a pricetag on your passion and you then pose another question: "Do ya feel lucky?"[8D] I certainly do.[:D]



Burzmali -> RE: ebay offerings (2/5/2005 11:06:08 PM)

Pasrenakski, that still doesn't make any sense. That would mean that any game that could produce an infinite number of random maps and/or units should cost excess amounts, which is not the case. As for cost per bye, that's bs, how many people worked at 2by3 making this game, I very much doubt that they put in more man-hours than the crew that made Half-Life 2 or any 3D game. Heck, large parts of the engine and were taken from UV which does wonders for development time.

When it comes down to it, Matrix set the price only to aim at a niche market that wants high degrees of accuracies, doesn't mind if the game needs several patches, and won't mind paying a premium for the game. However, plenty of people who don't quite fit into that niche are becoming interested in the game. As they don't meet the requirements above, they can't justify the price, hence we grumble that the game is too expensive. If the game had been released in stores (even at an original price of $70) we would be complaining less, because the price would have fallen off over time.



mogami -> RE: ebay offerings (2/5/2005 11:11:30 PM)

Hi, I drink Pilsner Urquell. I wish they woiuld drop the niche market pricing and go for the PBR crowd.



Mr.Frag -> RE: ebay offerings (2/6/2005 12:08:12 AM)

There are roughly 60,000 records worth of data. You might want to think about the fact that multiple people have been working for over 3 years collecting and correcting that data.

Forget the game itself, just look at the data. This is why simulators and historical games cost a fortune to produce. You have to do tons of research.

Non historical/Non simulator games have no data, they just make it up, that cuts years off the development and seriously reduces costs. Everyone forgets the data costs when comparing games.



pasternakski -> RE: ebay offerings (2/6/2005 1:13:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Burzmali

Pasrenakski, that still doesn't make any sense.

Of course not. If I made sense, I sure as hell wouldn't be posting here.



mogami -> RE: ebay offerings (2/6/2005 1:23:07 AM)

Hi

Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.


"Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!"


He took his vorpal sword in hand:
Long time the manxome foe he sought --
So rested he by the Tumtum tree,
And stood awhile in thought.


And, as in uffish thought he stood,
The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame,
Came whiffling through the tulgey wood,
And burbled as it came!


One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back.


"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.


`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.



Jaws_slith -> RE: ebay offerings (2/6/2005 1:30:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

There are roughly 60,000 records worth of data. You might want to think about the fact that multiple people have been working for over 3 years collecting and correcting that data.

Forget the game itself, just look at the data. This is why simulators and historical games cost a fortune to produce. You have to do tons of research.


Uhhh.... 60.000.... tons... We need to get some transport over there[:D]

Man I think I play this game to long… If we invite potential buyers to read this forum… they will buy. $70 is not much for an addiction… cigarettes or alcohol are far more expensive[;)]



rhondabrwn -> RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price (2/6/2005 4:23:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BrucePowers

I said this in another thread earlier this evening. I love this game. I am not playing it as much as I thought I would, but I love it. When I walk away I save the file and it is there. I bought SPI's War in the Pacific in 1979 for $50.00. I loved that game (I still have it). It took 8 hours to set up, took up a full bedroom or the dining room of that apartment in 1979. Now it would take up the full playroom upstairs in my house. It only came out 2 or 3 times in full mode. There were something like 4000 units and various playing aids to set up. With WiTP, "Oh I am done for the night, save the file turn off the computer" and go do something else. All for $70.00 in 2004/2005 dollars. I also own Pacific Victory by Victory games and I like playing it. Not as much setup time but I still cannot leave it up too long. Also a lot of manual record keeping in both games.


Oh, how that brings back memories!

And don't forget the attack of the dust bunnies and malicious feline counter-attacks!

Yea, the greatest thing about WiTP is that you can save the game, turn off the computer, and come back another day and pick up where you left off!

I do think the game should be prices at no more than $49.95 for a download though. Perhaps, this is a classic that should drop in price about $10 a year as it ages until everyone can eventually afford it at $20.

Actually, perhaps the entire Matrix lineup should have a depreciation schedule for downloads that reflects what we see happening in the retail world. I mean, it's unreal to think that a game intially priced at $70 wouldn't be in the $20 bargain bins by now if it had been widely available in the retail marketplace. {yea, yea I know the economic theory of mass market games that quickly fade away} but I don't think a direct seller like Matrix should be exempt from aggressive discounting of older titles as they mature.

That said, I salute the pricing trends that I have seen in the last six months! I think Matrix is headed in the right direction, but WiTP seems to be the exception.



Rob322 -> RE: ebay offerings (2/6/2005 4:39:48 AM)

Jeez, this thread is still going on? [8|] It is what it is what it is. Some folks don't seem to be bothered by the price and bought the game, some wish it were cheaper and presumably haven't purchased it. I've seen this same thread pop up for some games than were $10-20 less. Would more people buy this game if it were cheaper? Maybe, or maybe not. Is this a niche game because of the price they charge or because of the way they choose to cover the topic of War in the Pacific? Is Guinness more expensive than Budweiser simply because that's what they want to do or is it something more?

Ultimately, the choice of course is theirs. If they've overpriced it and lost a large mass of eager customers out there then that's their mistake. If not, then they accomplished what they set out to do. Time will tell. Anyhow, enough of this, off to find a thread that talks about the game, not this little pricing issue.



pasternakski -> RE: ebay offerings (2/6/2005 4:52:28 AM)

And neither would HE, tweedledee.



Stavka_lite -> RE: ebay offerings (2/6/2005 5:02:32 AM)

Ya know... If people don't like the price, packaging, content font size or what ever they just to need pick up on of the alternative naval strategy games on the market, like Battleship and leave the rest of us alone

A4
[sm=00000106.gif]
Hit
[sm=00000018.gif] You sank my battleship[sm=00000116.gif]



Mr.Frag -> RE: ebay offerings (2/6/2005 5:51:51 AM)

quote:


A4
[sm=00000106.gif]
Hit
[sm=00000018.gif] You sank my battleship[sm=00000116.gif]


Don't forget Axis & Allied ... dice roll ... six snake eyes ... there goes the entire Pacific Fleet!



pasternakski -> RE: ebay offerings (2/6/2005 6:31:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
Don't forget Axis & Allied ... dice roll ... six snake eyes ... there goes the entire Pacific Fleet!

Yeah, that's how it goes when you have an entire world at war...



Zap -> RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price (2/6/2005 7:41:50 AM)

quote:

...I think they should release it in box form for 49.95...maybe they can build up the cutomer base...


I've happily accepted the price of $70.00 for WitP(digital; $10.00 for the disk). Because I know the value of such a game. Matrix has put a lot of money into the development of this game and deserve a fair return on their investment. This is a capitalistic society (And I make no apologies for a capitalist society!). But I really don't believe that Matrix is making a ungodly amount of $ on the game.

I trust them to make the best decisiones to keep their company viable. This, should be the primary reason for the price of the game. I want Matrix to suceed because that will mean many more quality games.
Bringing down the price (For now), for a small increase in sales will not meet the end goal of Matrix (stay in business and make great games).

Someone said that this board is loaded with those in favor of keeping the price where it is. Be assured, all that have replied have been civil (if maybe a little frank). Please feel free to express what you want here.



Page: <<   < prev  3 4 [5] 6 7   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI
1.03125