Mutual CV Annihilation (Full Version)

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steve99x -> Mutual CV Annihilation (2/4/2005 6:19:44 PM)

Strategic question...

when you have 2 large 5+ CV TF's facing off... is there any ambush strategy that can be employed? since you can't actually position your TF in cloud cover, is there something I'm missing? or is it just up to the AI?

case in point:
playing Allied side, planes have spotted 6 Jap CV's in same hex...

I have 2 split CV TF's (5 CV's in all, with great AA cover) that can come within striking distance... what would our esteemed forum members do????



Mr.Frag -> RE: Mutual CV Annihilation (2/4/2005 6:29:21 PM)

Hit 'em when they are doing a attack on one of your bases. You'll generally be fighting against fatigued air crews and that will give you the upper edge.

You need to effectively warp in (a 12 hex move) so plan your pre-jump off position to be 13 hexes away from the location where the CV's are hitting your base from. If Japan, 16 Hexes instead of 13 to keep those torp bombers out of range.

Remember ops ... if he has been pounding on your bases for a couple of turns, he may be running low and potentially some of the smaller CV/CVL will be out of the fight.



steve99x -> RE: Mutual CV Annihilation (2/4/2005 6:38:21 PM)

refresh my memory... if your 'ops' number is high, that equals reduced effectiveness, correct?



AmiralLaurent -> RE: Mutual CV Annihilation (2/4/2005 8:34:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: steve99x

refresh my memory... if your 'ops' number is high, that equals reduced effectiveness, correct?


Ops show the points allready used, so if the number is high, effectiveness will be reduced.

Better to not sail much the same turn you engage enemy CVs. Moving at night and not at all during the day phase will assure you to have the most efficiency in launching raids AFAIK.

If you're US try to close the distance to torpedo plane range. Dive bombers may hit CVs but torpedoes will sink them or close them to flying status faster.

On the other hand, Japanese should try to use the superior range of his torpedo planes.



steve99x -> RE: Mutual CV Annihilation (2/4/2005 8:52:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent

quote:

ORIGINAL: steve99x

refresh my memory... if your 'ops' number is high, that equals reduced effectiveness, correct?


Ops show the points allready used, so if the number is high, effectiveness will be reduced.

Better to not sail much the same turn you engage enemy CVs. Moving at night and not at all during the day phase will assure you to have the most efficiency in launching raids AFAIK.

If you're US try to close the distance to torpedo plane range. Dive bombers may hit CVs but torpedoes will sink them or close them to flying status faster.

On the other hand, Japanese should try to use the superior range of his torpedo planes.


is there a way to get your TF's to move only at night?



AmiralLaurent -> RE: Mutual CV Annihilation (2/4/2005 9:23:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: steve99x

quote:

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent

quote:

ORIGINAL: steve99x

refresh my memory... if your 'ops' number is high, that equals reduced effectiveness, correct?


Ops show the points allready used, so if the number is high, effectiveness will be reduced.

Better to not sail much the same turn you engage enemy CVs. Moving at night and not at all during the day phase will assure you to have the most efficiency in launching raids AFAIK.

If you're US try to close the distance to torpedo plane range. Dive bombers may hit CVs but torpedoes will sink them or close them to flying status faster.

On the other hand, Japanese should try to use the superior range of his torpedo planes.


is there a way to get your TF's to move only at night?


Move then only the number of hexes they will move in one phase (between 2 and 6 depending of CV and set up cruise speed or full speed). So all move will be done in the night movement phase.



medicff -> RE: Mutual CV Annihilation (2/4/2005 10:21:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent

Move then only the number of hexes they will move in one phase (between 2 and 6 depending of CV and set up cruise speed or full speed). So all move will be done in the night movement phase.


CV's also use up some OP's or movement allowance if they are searching/asw therefore you may not move the entire 12 hexes. Try it out at sea and see if you actually get 12 or maybe even 9-10 in a turn (2 phases). [8D]



BraveHome -> RE: Mutual CV Annihilation (2/4/2005 11:38:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: medicff

CV's also use up some OP's or movement allowance if they are searching/asw therefore you may not move the entire 12 hexes. Try it out at sea and see if you actually get 12 or maybe even 9-10 in a turn (2 phases). [8D]


Is Operational Damage (more likely when moving full speed) accumulated during such a move (thus reducing effective speed), or only at the end of such a speed run (thus allowing single phase max move based on starting damage speed)?



Mr.Frag -> RE: Mutual CV Annihilation (2/5/2005 12:57:13 AM)

quote:

Is Operational Damage (more likely when moving full speed) accumulated during such a move (thus reducing effective speed), or only at the end of such a speed run (thus allowing single phase max move based on starting damage speed)?


Yep, but most CV's have enough extra speed to handle some system damage without dropping into the 5 hex catagory.

To get a move where you are not going full speed during the day phase is quite simple.

During the turn, set the CV groups speed to Full then give it a move 7 hexes away. It will move 6 during the night phase and complete it's move of 1 during the day phase.



Kereguelen -> RE: Mutual CV Annihilation (2/5/2005 1:22:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

Is Operational Damage (more likely when moving full speed) accumulated during such a move (thus reducing effective speed), or only at the end of such a speed run (thus allowing single phase max move based on starting damage speed)?


Yep, but most CV's have enough extra speed to handle some system damage without dropping into the 5 hex catagory.

To get a move where you are not going full speed during the day phase is quite simple.

During the turn, set the CV groups speed to Full then give it a move 7 hexes away. It will move 6 during the night phase and complete it's move of 1 during the day phase.


Hi Mr. Frag,

this leads to a really stupid question (considering that I've played UV a lot and being involved in two PBEM[8D]):

In your exemple the CV TF will spend the day sequence of the turn in the hex it reached in that day sequence after moving one hex? I always used "Patrol/Do not retire" for that effect (with all the dangers that come with that mission). Never occured to me that the TF would stay, always thought (and never tested out) that it would try to return to its home destination in the same turn!

Please confirm if I understood you correctly, very important for carrier operations!

K



Mr.Frag -> RE: Mutual CV Annihilation (2/5/2005 1:27:34 AM)

quote:

Never occured to me that the TF would stay, always thought (and never tested out) that it would try to return to its home destination in the same turn!


If the TF is not set to Retirement Allowed, it will stay where the DH is set to until one of the conditions make it toggle the Retirement Allowed (fuel, ammo, damage, etc)



Kereguelen -> RE: Mutual CV Annihilation (2/5/2005 1:29:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

Never occured to me that the TF would stay, always thought (and never tested out) that it would try to return to its home destination in the same turn!


If the TF is not set to Retirement Allowed, it will stay where the DH is set to until one of the conditions make it toggle the Retirement Allowed (fuel, ammo, damage, etc)


But when will it start to retire? The same turn it reached its destination hex?



Mr.Frag -> RE: Mutual CV Annihilation (2/5/2005 1:32:32 AM)

quote:

But when will it start to retire? The same turn it reached its destination hex?


If you set "Do Not Retire/Patrol", it will never retire until one of the special conditions happens that makes the game toggle "Retirement Allowed".

Generally, thats short on ammo or damaged. I don't remember if Air Combat TF's will wimp out when short on fuel.

If those do not happen, it will sit there forever.

If it is set "Retirement Allowed", it will head home as soon as it gets there.



Kereguelen -> RE: Mutual CV Annihilation (2/5/2005 1:38:47 AM)

Hi,

I know about the effects of the "Patrol/DNR" order. Will try to make my question better understandable:

When will a TF that is set on "Retirement allowed" start to return to its home base? The same turn it reached its destination hex (if it has movement left after reaching its destination)? Or will it remain in the hex for the whole turn?

K



pompack -> Clarity Request (2/5/2005 1:47:33 AM)

1. Assume it is orders phase on 14 Sept 42 and I have a CTF sitting 10 hexes away from Port A (hostile) and 30 hexes away from my base. Assume the CTF is located on a line of hexes stretching directly from Base to Port A just to keep things simple.

2. I order the CTF to a location 3 hexes away from Port A (7 hexes from Current Location) and set Retirement Allowed and Port Attack targeted at Port A.

During the Night phase, it will move 6 hexes to a location 4 hexes from Port A.

During the Day phase, it will move 1 hex to the targeted location 3 hexes from Port A.


Question 1: Will it remain there and lauch strikes at range 3 or will it turn around and retire toward Base before it launches?

Question 2: At the orders phase for 15 Sept 42 will it be 3 hexes from Port A, 8 hexes from Port A returning to Base, or somewhere between those two points (the location determined by the op points left after the port strike)?



Mr.Frag -> RE: Mutual CV Annihilation (2/5/2005 1:59:54 AM)

quote:

When will a TF that is set on "Retirement allowed" start to return to its home base? The same turn it reached its destination hex (if it has movement left after reaching its destination)? Or will it remain in the hex for the whole turn?


Ah, I get you ... ie: does it hang around for a turn then go.

It varies based on the type of TF. There's a table in the manual 6.1.9 (pg 79)



Mr.Frag -> RE: Clarity Request (2/5/2005 2:05:33 AM)

Remember that the movement phase happens right before the air phase, so all movement will be done before and air stuff happens. This gets complicated as the CV react rule will pull them together (special move rule)

As you need to factor not only your settings but the other guys settings into what happens, there is no exact answer.



Kereguelen -> RE: Mutual CV Annihilation (2/5/2005 2:06:53 AM)

Thanks!

LOL, why does nobody look into the manual first (me included)[;)]?



pompack -> RE: Clarity Request (2/5/2005 4:58:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pompack

1. Assume it is orders phase on 14 Sept 42 and I have a CTF sitting 10 hexes away from Port A (hostile) and 30 hexes away from my base. Assume the CTF is located on a line of hexes stretching directly from Base to Port A just to keep things simple.

2. I order the CTF to a location 3 hexes away from Port A (7 hexes from Current Location) and set Retirement Allowed and Port Attack targeted at Port A.

During the Night phase, it will move 6 hexes to a location 4 hexes from Port A.

During the Day phase, it will move 1 hex to the targeted location 3 hexes from Port A.


Question 1: Will it remain there and lauch strikes at range 3 or will it turn around and retire toward Base before it launches?

Question 2: At the orders phase for 15 Sept 42 will it be 3 hexes from Port A, 8 hexes from Port A returning to Base, or somewhere between those two points (the location determined by the op points left after the port strike)?


Just ran a series of tests with the Tutorial. In all cases there was no enemy surface force so there was no reaction move.

Q1: Raids launched at range 3
Q2: CTF remains at destination hex (range 3)

On the next turn the CTF returns to base.

I am glad I did that since I have always set PATROL/DO NOT RETIRE. This is an easier and more secure way to plan a raid.



Grotius -> RE: Clarity Request (2/5/2005 4:58:09 PM)

Hmm, on page 77, the manual says: "Regardless of how fast it is, no TF may move more than 6 hexes per turn." Should that read "per phase"?



pompack -> RE: Clarity Request (2/5/2005 5:37:00 PM)

yes



Grotius -> RE: Clarity Request (2/5/2005 7:25:33 PM)

Ah, OK. So the maximum any naval unit can move in one turn is 12 hexes (presuming 1-day turns).



BraveHome -> RE: Mutual CV Annihilation (2/5/2005 10:33:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

During the turn, set the CV groups speed to Full then give it a move 7 hexes away. It will move 6 during the night phase and complete it's move of 1 during the day phase.


Hm.....I thought that if set at full speed a TF will travel at that speed regardless of the number of hexes it must traverse. If that is true, even a 1 hex move at Full Speed incurs the extra chance (for that one hex) of damage versus a nonFull Speed move?

Thanks!



Mr.Frag -> RE: Mutual CV Annihilation (2/5/2005 11:46:22 PM)

SYS damage roll is done for each hex moved ... up to the normal hex move rolls at the low rate, moves beyond that roll at the higher rate ... Had to be done this way to deal with fast ships stuck in with slow ships ... what might be a high sys roll for one is not for the other ... same with fuel handling, each ship tracks it's own fuel burn.



BraveHome -> RE: Mutual CV Annihilation (2/6/2005 12:55:15 AM)

Excellent -- hadn't know that. Thanks!



denisonh -> RE: Mutual CV Annihilation (2/6/2005 6:58:19 AM)

Planning a "fast raid" has a couple key pieces that will help it suceed:

- Much like discussion above, plan a fast move of around 8-9 to to leave adequate op points for your TF to lauch multiple strikes
- Set up "jump off point", a place that is 11 or more hexes away from the nearest enemy base with search capability (11 hexes away with an 8 hex "jump" puts you 3 hexes away)
- Ensure your ships are "topped off" before hitting the "jump off point". Key is having DDs fueled before hitting the jump off point.
- Approach with TFs of 10 or less to the jump off point, as they are harder to detect than larger TFs.

Technique has worked well for me.



BraveHome -> RE: Mutual CV Annihilation (2/6/2005 7:16:06 AM)

That is something I've been experimenting with too [;)]

Thanks for the good advice!



Mr.Frag -> RE: Mutual CV Annihilation (2/6/2005 7:24:46 PM)

Just remember Japan has a serious leg up here with those Alf's flying search.



denisonh -> RE: Mutual CV Annihilation (2/6/2005 9:08:10 PM)

Timing it with weather helps too.

Search past 10 hexes in bad weather is unlikely to spot a TF of 10 ships or less that have not previously been detected.

IJN or Allies.



BraveHome -> RE: Mutual CV Annihilation (2/6/2005 9:56:25 PM)

In my PBEM, the Allied Recon is doing OK too (Jan '42). At least from major Airbases. I agree that in areas where good Allied ABs in scant supply the floats rule.

Curious, what altitude do you find best for naval and ASW search? I stick with 6k Naval and 2k ASW, but wonder if other options could better.

Thanks!



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