US super equiped troops (Full Version)

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Drake666 -> US super equiped troops (6/21/2000 5:27:00 AM)

From what I have read and seen, German troops had more fire power overall then that of their US counterparts. But in this game the US troops are super equiped with bazookas and other weapons. I would like to see this changed becouse as it is now the US infantry platoon is a lot better the the German one. This is some info I could get on US troops US Infantry Regiment In 1944: 6 105mm Howitzers, 9 57mm anti-tank guns, 55 .50 caliber machine guns, many .30 caliber machine guns and enough Jeeps & ammunition to opperate US Infantry Company In 1944: 193 men, 15 BARs, 2 M1919A4s, 1 .50 caliber machine gun and 6 submachine guns US Infantry Platoon In 1944: 41 men, 1 M2 carbine, 3 BARs US Airborne Infantry Company: 176 men, 9 machine guns, 9 BARs, 3 60mm mortars and 3 bazookas US Airborne Infantry Platoon: 36 men, 2 M1919A6s, 22 rifles, 14 M2 carbines, 1 60mm mortar, 1 sniper rifle and 1 bazooka As you can see only airborne platoons had bozooka as the normal part of their setup in 1944.



Dean Robb -> (6/22/2000 11:38:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Drake666: As you can see only airborne platoons had bozooka as the normal part of their setup in 1944.
Except for the well-known propensity for American servicemen to get their hands on all kinds of goodies [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]. I'm not sure where your OOB came from, but I do know that the 34th ID in Italy in '44 has lessons learned on the effectiveness of the bazooka in street fighting. One presumes they has some with which to learn those lessons, and they weren't Airborne. The Airborne guys were certainly issued bazookas because they didn't jump (obviously) with the AT guns that leg units had attached. Most of the infantry outfits got their hands on the 'zookas even if it wasn't on their "official" TO&E. However, I do think they're a bit over-supplied in SP:WAW. One per platoon wouldn't be unreasonable; one per squad is overkill. Those are big suckers, and the rounds are heavy - you'd devote an awful lot of the squads humping capacity to a bazooka. [This message has been edited by Dean Robb (edited 06-22-2000).]



Drake666 -> (6/22/2000 12:05:00 PM)

However, I do think they're a bit over-supplied in SP:WAW. One per platoon wouldn't be unreasonable; one per squad is overkill. Those are big suckers, and the rounds are heavy - you'd devote an awful lot of the squads humping capacity to a bazooka. Yup, thats the point I was trying to get across. Like the German sqds carried light AT weapons next to the US ones for close combat against tanks and the US carried heavyer ATs and they would number I would say about one per platoon.



Fishu -> (6/22/2000 5:14:00 PM)

Americans also has only movable AT-guns :I



victorhauser -> (6/22/2000 6:15:00 PM)

From what I've read, any advantage the Germans had in firepower compared with the US Army had to do with the greater number of MG42s in their rifle squads compared to the number of automatic weapons in US Army rifle squads. In addition, the Germans almost always put their best soldier(s) in charge of the squad MG42(s). But I think this discussion ultimately becomes one of apples and oranges. The best equipped US Army squads had more firepower than the worst equipped German squads, and vice versa. In addition, troop quality is probably more important than raw firepower. Heavily armed Volksgrenadiers with little combat experience were badly mauled during the Battle of the Bulge, for instance. As far as I can tell, the SPWAW staff has done a good job of equipping "typical" squads of the largest combatant nations (UK, USA, USSR, Italy, Japan, Germany).



Voriax -> (6/22/2000 6:19:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Fishu: Americans also has only movable AT-guns :I
Don't worry..they will be immobilised. At least they should be immobilised. Voriax



Larry Holt -> (6/22/2000 7:42:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Voriax: Don't worry..they will be immobilised. At least they should be immobilised. Voriax
Hmmm, I don't know the specific gun and MPs that this refers to but I think that this is generally OK. Most guns can be manhandled short distances. I don't know about the big 88's & above but a crew can still move a 105mm HOW about. Giving these kind of guns 1 MP at least allows them to be placed in buildings then removed during the game. In SP1, a unit loaded while adjecent to its transport. Now that this has changed, there is no way to get a gun into or out of a building unless it has MPs. Putting an AT gun into a building and sticking the barrel out of a window/door seems realistic enough. ------------------ An old soldier but not yet a faded one. OK, maybe just a bit faded.



Voriax -> (6/22/2000 9:08:00 PM)

Larry, this non-mobility of AT-guns in general I refer comes from Mike Wood. He said that giving AT-guns or infantry guns any mobility will confuse the AI and produce code problems. I haven't checked what US guns move but according to Mike they should not move...probably just a bug/leftover from converting oob's to SPWAW format. I have seen no mention that this has changed so I'll expect there will be no moving AT-guns when the oob patch comes out. Voriax



Larry Holt -> (6/22/2000 9:21:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Voriax: Larry, this non-mobility of AT-guns in general I refer comes from Mike Wood. He said that giving AT-guns or infantry guns any mobility will confuse the AI and produce code problems.... Voriax
What the AI isn't perfect and won't try to banzi charge AT guns? [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img] Oh well, Matrix and the game have given us so much already I guess that I can live with this. However, perhaps I can request that it be put on the wish list. Perhaps a seperate AI rule can be generated for the AI & guns. The AI could check if a unit it was to move is a gun, if so, it doesn't move it or only moves it in retreat. Just one more if then or case statement? In the mean time, I'll just edit my OOB to give my human led units this capability. ------------------ An old soldier but not yet a faded one. OK, maybe just a bit faded.



Elvis -> (6/22/2000 9:38:00 PM)

I have to agree with Larry on this one. Assign artillery up to a certain size (~75mm?) a MP value of 1. As a former gun bunny, I know for a fact that a modern M119 105mm howitzer weighing 1389 lbs. can be manhandled to an extent by its crew. A WW2-era 75mm M8 pack howitzer weighed 1339 lbs, and I'll bet (although I haven't done any digging yet) that the majority of 75mm-class pieces weighed in around 2000 lbs - a weight that a 6-8 man gun crew can manage on a limited basis. As far as the cut off, that is up to debate... ------------------ alea iacta est [email]sooperduk@hotmail.com[/email] [This message has been edited by Elvis (edited 06-22-2000).]



johnfmonahan -> (6/22/2000 9:52:00 PM)

I have moved an american 105 howitzer many times. Being a big guy, I was always the one that had to belly over the end of the barrel to move the center of balence. The inability to move guns, especially anti-tank guns has been a feature the sorely limits antitank ambushed, urban ones in particular. It is a feature that I think would greatly enhance the game, as it would allow engagements from secondary( same field of fire) and alternate ( different field of fire) positions. The inability to change positions has always been a brawback to really great defensive battles. ------------------ When in doubt, go on line.



Wild Bill -> (6/23/2000 1:18:00 AM)

Personal opinion, since that is what is being offered. Any gun up to and including a 105, if it has a full crew and is unsuppressed, should be able to move one hex. Any small weapons 37mm or less should be able to be moved 2 hexes, same condition. Again, personal thoughts from what I have read of what has often been done in combat. Now whether I get my wish or not, I will let you know. In fact, since I have version 2.0, I'll go look now. Hold on (don't you hate when I do that?) - - - Yes, US 37mm can be moved, so can 75mm. 105..no Other countries...no. BUT unless the weapon is coded as unmoveable you can change those numbers in the editor. Hold on.. - - -Yes, you can do that...WB Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games



Spunkgibbon -> (6/23/2000 1:43:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Wild Bill: In fact, since I have version 2.0, I'll go look now. Hold on (don't you hate when I do that?)
Yeah. [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/tongue.gif[/img]



Bing -> (6/23/2000 3:00:00 AM)

Mortars have movement points, and that apparently doesn't screw up the AI. Am I missing something here? Byron Inglesh



Voriax -> (6/23/2000 4:20:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Bing: Mortars have movement points, and that apparently doesn't screw up the AI. Am I missing something here?
Mortars can fire indirect, AT-guns cannot. Maybe that's why the AI doesn't feel like charging with mortars? [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Just my guess. Voriax



O de B -> (6/23/2000 4:13:00 PM)

I tried to add move points to AT guns in the original SP. One problem that comes with it is that the crews won't abandon their guns anymore when fired at by MG/small arms og getting suppressed. Instead, they will rout carrying the gun... at MP 1 you don"t run very well, and they 'll be slain quicky [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/frown.gif[/img]



Pack Rat -> (6/23/2000 4:44:00 PM)

Ya I remember that bug now that you mention it. ------------------ Good hunting, Pack Rat



Paul Vebber -> (6/24/2000 3:15:00 AM)

The reason we left most guns immobile (other than the fact the AI would think they were slow assault guns and keep moving them every chance it got...) is not because the piece could not be moved, but because of problems moving both the gun AND the ammo. Yes it could be done, but typically not very easily, requiring the gun to be moved to where it was going, then going back and getting the ammo...several times...



Paul Vebber -> (6/24/2000 3:28:00 AM)

I also editied bazooka type weapons...let me know if I went too far the other way:-) A couple things - I have conflicting data on the P'shreck's warhead, anyboy have a source and pen number?



Alby -> (6/24/2000 6:07:00 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bing: [B]Mortars have movement points, and that apparently doesn't screw up the AI. Am I missing something here? Byron Inglesh Yes, and Andy Gaileys WW2 kobs also had movable at guns, no problem for the AI, I saw them retreat quite often..heheheh



Kluckenbill -> (6/24/2000 8:54:00 AM)

Here's my 2 cents on two of the issues discussed in this post. All of the discussion of crew-mobile artillery reminded me of my last trip to Aberdeen Proving Grounds. For all you Military Historians out there, I strongly recommend a vistit to the Ordnance Museum at APG (in Aberdeen Maryland). They have the finest collection of tanks I've seen, also a rather large assortment of Anti-tank guns. Which brings me to my first point, most of the WW2 anti tank guns were quite small. It would be pretty simple for a full crew to maneuver anything smaller than an 88. My second point concerns the 'customization' of American Units. I have questioned a lot of WW2 veterans about their experience in the war and they agree that it was very common for veteran units to have weapons well in excess of the TOE. I recently spoke with a guy who was in a heavy maintenance battalion throughout the entire European Campaign. Among other interesting things, he told me that in July or August of '44 they spent a week converting THOUSANDS of M1 Carbines to full automatic (not selective fire). I suspect that this sort of thing happened a lot more than we think.



Drake666 -> (6/24/2000 9:31:00 AM)

Found this interesting when I read it today. Various Small Infantry unit Commanders in the US Army: 81mm mortar: A perfect weapon. I like to use the alternate traversing method. 6Omm mortar: We kept them right up in front and used them often. Bazooka: We have had no trouble with our bazookas. Have gotten several tanks with them. 37mm AT gun: Very mobile. It’s artillery; good against anything-vehicles, pillboxes, personnel, houses. Gets in faster than the mortar. If I had to throw away any heavy weapons, the 37mm would be the last to go. 75mm self-propelled cannon : Excellent for co-ordinated attack-perfect. Too vulnerable to get very close initially.



Dean Robb -> (6/24/2000 10:09:00 AM)

quote:

Among other interesting things, he told me that in July or August of '44 they spent a week converting THOUSANDS of M1 Carbines to full automatic (not selective fire). I suspect that this sort of thing happened a lot more than we think. [/B]
Still does, to some extent. Plumb amazing the toys some of us had in the field. Just as an example, I carried an M203 (M-16 w/attached grenade launcher) - and I was a crew chief on an M109 SP howitzer. It DEFINITELY wasn't on our TO&E! If the Bad Guys ever got close enough that I'd need the 40mm, we were in deep kimchee....but I liked having that edge - just in case.



Paul Vebber -> (6/24/2000 10:43:00 AM)

THe bottom line is, if you have an interest in seeing this stuff changed, drop me a line and join the OOB mailing list. They will be experimenting with things like this and see what is feasible and what just doesn't work! We will try to make some code tweaks if required. to have things like AT guns with movement still abandon their guns intead of haul them everywhere:-)



troopie -> (6/24/2000 12:33:00 PM)

My father was in North Africa and Italy in WW2. He said it was common for Commonwealth lorries to carry Bren guns, even if they weren't supposed to. Also, tank and AC crews usually had Sten guns in specially made holsters, clipped near their stations. He advised me, when I told him that I was assigned to drive lorries, "to have the regimental saddler make you a holster for your Sten>" I laughed, told him we didn't use Stens any more. Then I thought about it and "organised" an R-1 for myself and had the saddler make me a holster. It came in very handy. It was common policy, whenever the SM or the CO went back for replacements, to take along a couple of 'light fingered' lads to pick up anything that might be useful. troopie



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