Name This...(315 Special Edation) (Full Version)

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Brady -> Name This...(315 Special Edation) (2/18/2005 8:19:37 AM)

???







[img]http://www.myphotodrive.com//uploads/686_1q.jpg[/img]



von Murrin -> RE: Name This...(315 Special Edation) (2/18/2005 8:40:38 AM)

USS Savannah during Salerno invasion.

Edit: After invasion. She was hit by some sort of radio controlled bomb I think. That's what the hole in the turret roof is.



stubby331 -> RE: Name This...(315 Special Edation) (2/18/2005 8:53:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: von Murrin

USS Savannah during Salerno invasion.

Edit: After invasion. She was hit by some sort of radio controlled bomb I think. That's what the hole in the turret roof is.


Damn

The poor buggers who were in there when it hit. How far into the ship did it penetrate?

Not too far I guess cause its still there....



von Murrin -> RE: Name This...(315 Special Edation) (2/18/2005 9:00:53 AM)

It went far enough to blast a hole outward through the hull. There exists a dramatic photo of the blast itself which clearly shows the hull penetration via debris.



von Murrin -> RE: Name This...(315 Special Edation) (2/18/2005 9:16:54 AM)

Here's the photo of the hit:

[image]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/nmurrin/savannah.jpg[/image]



ChezDaJez -> RE: Name This...(315 Special Edation) (2/18/2005 11:00:09 AM)

Wow, that must have penetrated to the bottom of the turret well before exploding. Damn lucky the mags didn't go.
Sure didn't look that bad from the 1st photo.

Chez



Tiornu -> RE: Name This...(315 Special Edation) (2/18/2005 11:06:01 AM)

The bomb penetrated not just to the bottom of the turret but to the bottom of the ship. It is generally accepted that the act of blowing out the ship's bottom actually prevented Savannah's loss as the influx of water prevented a magazine explosion. That photo has always chilled me, showing the simultaneously eruption of smoke atop the turret and blast from beneath the hull. That Fritz X was one nasty weapon.



Tiornu -> RE: Name This...(315 Special Edation) (2/18/2005 11:12:27 AM)

Here, I've never uploaded a picture before, but I have a drawing of Savannah's damage. Let me see if I can do this right....

[image]local://upfiles/11575/Hf979734785.jpg[/image]



von Murrin -> RE: Name This...(315 Special Edation) (2/18/2005 11:16:35 AM)

Wow. You are, as always, a wealth of information.[:)]



ChezDaJez -> RE: Name This...(315 Special Edation) (2/18/2005 11:50:46 AM)

I had to look up some specs on the Fritz X because I wasn't too familiar with it. Here's what I found.

Weight: 1570kg (3454lbs)
Warhead: 320kg (704lbs)
Speed: gravity bomb approachiing speed of sound at impact
Platform: Most commonly launched from DO-217s
Guidance: originally wire guided, changed to radio guidance because of flight limitations due to the wire.

The same source states that 2 Fritz X bombs struck the Italian BB Roma and blew her in half. HMS Warspite was also hit with one and had to be towed back to port.

Savannah's very fortunate to not have ben sunk.

Chez



tonyingesson -> RE: Name This...(315 Special Edation) (2/18/2005 11:51:44 AM)

Great stuff! Most interesting.

[&o]



steveh11Matrix -> RE: Name This...(315 Special Edation) (2/18/2005 2:44:10 PM)

But, sadly, just about impossible to model in WitP...



tsimmonds -> RE: Name This...(315 Special Edation) (2/18/2005 2:49:07 PM)

The first PGM. Look where that entry hole is: dead center.



Twotribes -> RE: Name This...(315 Special Edation) (2/18/2005 3:16:13 PM)

Those life rafts have no room for people in them )



Cap Mandrake -> RE: Name This...(315 Special Edation) (2/18/2005 5:11:41 PM)

Fascinating post Tiornu. I wonder if the turret crew survived. I suspect the ammo handlers down below had no chance.

USS Savannah played a big role in stopping the German attack toward the VI Corps beachead.

HMS Warspite was hit or near missed by 3 or 4 glide bombs and had to be towed.

A hospital ship was also hit...cant remember the name.



grossmetzger -> RE: Name This...(315 Special Edation) (2/18/2005 8:02:41 PM)

here´s a pic of the "ruhrstahl x-1" or "fritz-x" as the bomb was called by the crew.

[image]local://upfiles/6721/Xv642344648.jpg[/image]



Tiornu -> RE: Name This...(315 Special Edation) (2/18/2005 9:45:43 PM)

I am sad to say that the entire turret III and barbette crew were killed. There were a total of 197 fatalities. Among the survivors were four fellows stuck in a watertight compartment for 60 hours. Rescuers finally got to them only when Savannah had reached Valletta.
As far as I have found, the FX-1400 never encountered an armor plate in combat that it failed to penetrate. The hit on Warspite, as I recall, exploded inside the double bottom. The effects on Roma are well known. Uganda was also hit, but I don't have details on that.
This is an example of a weapon that went from fearsome status to non-factor as simple radio countermeasures were extremely successful.



Brady -> RE: Name This...(315 Special Edation) (2/18/2005 10:01:19 PM)

USS Savannah, it is[:)]



............................

Cool post Tiornu[:)]



Apollo11 -> RE: Name This...(315 Special Edation) (2/19/2005 10:16:35 AM)

HI all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tiornu

As far as I have found, the FX-1400 never encountered an armor plate in combat that it failed to penetrate. The hit on Warspite, as I recall, exploded inside the double bottom. The effects on Roma are well known. Uganda was also hit, but I don't have details on that.

This is an example of a weapon that went from fearsome status to non-factor as simple radio countermeasures were extremely successful.


Great info (as always) - thanks!

The "Fritz-X" allays fascinated me as a weapon - strange enough that Allies didn't try to emulate it into primitive guided bombs of their own (the first mention of combat usage of US guided bombs, as far as I know, are against some North Vietnamese bridge in 1960's - which is 20+ years later)...


BTW, how many such weapons were launched (and how many hits where there)?

Did Germans see that Allied radio countermeasures worked and what they did to counter it (and did they try to revert to wire guidance)?


Leo "Apollo11"


P.S.
Great picture for non-picture man... [;)]



Cap Mandrake -> RE: Name This...(315 Special Edation) (2/19/2005 5:34:41 PM)

The picture does inspire awe, but it is tempered by the knowledge that it is the instant of death of dozens of US sailors.

It is amazes me that anyone could hit a target with a glide bomb via radio or wire control without a nose camera or a computer allowing the operator to simply point a targeting device at the target, permiting the computer to send orders to the defelection vanes on the bomb.

If I understand this correctly, the operator simply flew this thing like a high subsonic radio control aircraft from 20,000 + feet.



Apollo11 -> RE: Name This...(315 Special Edation) (2/19/2005 5:41:39 PM)

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Great picture for non-picture man...


The picture does inspire awe


I didn't mean the 1st picture in this thread:

[img]http://www.myphotodrive.com//uploads/686_1q.jpg[/img]


I meant the picture "Tiornu" posted:

[img]http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/upfiles/11575/Hf979734785.jpg[/img]


This was the first picture he ever posted (and he is known as a expert that loves text above picture)... [:D]


Leo "Apollo11"



Cap Mandrake -> RE: Name This...(315 Special Edation) (2/19/2005 5:49:19 PM)

Leo;

Roger that.

It was a very close call for the Savannah. Look at the red water level line labeled "a.d.". The ship was really down by the bow.

Also..on the action pic...it looks like a spike of smoke exiting from the vents near the superstructure. Truly an amazing picture because of the ferocity of the explosion captured precisely.



Apollo11 -> RE: Name This...(315 Special Edation) (2/19/2005 5:59:30 PM)

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

Also..on the action pic...it looks like a spike of smoke exiting from the vents near the superstructure. Truly an amazing picture because of the ferocity of the explosion captured precisely.


Very spectacular photo - similarly dreadful as the scenes showing BB HMS "Barham" exploding...


Leo "Apollo11"



Tiornu -> RE: Name This...(315 Special Edation) (2/19/2005 7:27:08 PM)

About 400-500 FX-1400's were made. Their successes were spectacular, but their failures were well in the majority. The bomb came with a flare mounted on the tail to aid the aimer.
There was a similar weapon called the Hs293, a genuine guided missile with a rocket engine, which sank the sloop Egret the cruiser Spartan, the destroyer Inglefield, and the escort destroyers Dulverton and Rockwood (CTL). And there was the famous Mistel, though I'm not sure why it's so famous.
The Americans had a couple guided weapons. War-weary B-17's were used in Operation Hermaphrodite, which involved the death of the eldest Kennedy boy. Bat was a guided missile with a radar bombsight. It probably could have developed into a superb weapon if given a chance. It had some successes nevertheless.
The Japanesel, of course, had their own guided missile system.



Apollo11 -> RE: Name This...(315 Special Edation) (2/19/2005 7:39:39 PM)

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tiornu

About 400-500 FX-1400's were made. Their successes were spectacular, but their failures were well in the majority. The bomb came with a flare mounted on the tail to aid the aimer.
There was a similar weapon called the Hs293, a genuine guided missile with a rocket engine, which sank the sloop Egret the cruiser Spartan, the destroyer Inglefield, and the escort destroyers Dulverton and Rockwood (CTL). And there was the famous Mistel, though I'm not sure why it's so famous.
The Americans had a couple guided weapons. War-weary B-17's were used in Operation Hermaphrodite, which involved the death of the eldest Kennedy boy. Bat was a guided missile with a radar bombsight. It probably could have developed into a superb weapon if given a chance. It had some successes nevertheless.


Thanks for info!

Again, I find it strange that until invetion os LGB's (Laser Guided Bombs) in 1960's USA didn't experiment and use more of German radio controlled bob delivery in its wars (Korea, Vietnam)...


quote:


The Japanesel, of course, had their own guided missile system.


Oh my... this is truly a "black humor"... [;)]


Leo "Apollo11"



TheElf -> RE: Name This...(315 Special Edation) (2/19/2005 11:02:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: grossmetzger

here´s a pic of the "ruhrstahl x-1" or "fritz-x" as the bomb was called by the crew.

[image]local://upfiles/6721/Xv642344648.jpg[/image]


One of these Fritz's is on display at the National Air & Space Annex at Dulles. Very impressive.



Mark Weston -> RE: Name This...(315 Special Edation) (2/19/2005 11:30:05 PM)

Somebody in Britain wanted to develop a pigeon-guided bomb. He trained pigeons to peck pictures of german warships behind a glass screen, and reckoned that with a pigeon in front looking through a window its pecks could be turned into control movements for a flying bomb.

For some reason, the authorities didn't take him seriously...



ChezDaJez -> RE: Name This...(315 Special Edation) (2/20/2005 2:55:13 AM)

According to one of the websites on the Fritz, it said that the operator used a modified "Luka" or "Luda" (don't remember which) bombsight to steer the weapon. The operator looked out the nose while reaching to the right side to guide it.

The US Navy P-3 Orions still used manual wire-guided air-surface missiles called the Bullpup as late as 1983 IIRC. It was designed to engage small surface targets such as a surfaced submarine. The pilot launched it from a range of about 3-4 miles and then used a joystick attached to his armrest to guide it. The missile had a flare on the back that allowed you to track it visually. The problem with the missile was it took 2-3 seconds for the command from the joystick to translate to action at the missile and then a few more seconds for the pilot to recognize the change. Chances of a hit were fairly remote. I can only remember seeing 1 hit on the 10-15 flights we launched it. The P-3 had to remain heading inbound at a slow descent during the entire time. Anyone with a AK-47 could have shot us down.

Another problem was the missile was almost as dangerous to the airplane as it was to the target. VP-49 once had one come off the wing and fail to ignite for about 5 seconds. By that time the plane was ahead of it. When the rocket lit, the missile zoomed under the wing and went ballistic. It missed the wing by less than 10 feet!


Chez



steveh11Matrix -> RE: Name This...(315 Special Edation) (2/21/2005 12:49:00 PM)

Also, don't forget that the RAF used precision munitions anyway - Tallboys and Grand Slams!

Steve.



String -> RE: Name This...(315 Special Edation) (2/21/2005 1:19:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Weston

Somebody in Britain wanted to develop a pigeon-guided bomb. He trained pigeons to peck pictures of german warships behind a glass screen, and reckoned that with a pigeon in front looking through a window its pecks could be turned into control movements for a flying bomb.

For some reason, the authorities didn't take him seriously...


those bombs were actually built and worked better than the early radar guided ones..



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