Anybody had this happen?

Anybody had this happen? (Full Version)

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ChezDaJez -> Anybody had this happen? (2/23/2005 11:11:18 AM)
This occurred during my Scen 15 (Lemur's) PBEM game against Tristanjohn. There have been some terrific air battles in and near Rangoon. I have been trying to attack the remenants of his surface fleet there after a IJN BB (Kongo, Haruna) force surprised a Brit BB (POW, Revenge, Repulse) force that had been bombarding Moulmein. I assigned all the air power I could muster (4 Sally sqds, 3 Betty sqds, 3 A6M2 sqds) in Tavoy to a primary mission of Naval Attack and secondary mission of port attack. All my bombers went in as individual squadrons. The Sally squadrons had 25+ bombers in each and the Betty squadrons ranged from 15-25 bombers in each. The Zeros were beat up having 10-18 aircraft in them. Two A6M2 squadrons had morale in the 30-40 range. Only one escort flew, the other two probably failed a morale check (I assume). The thing that got me was after the first attack (which was escorted) all the other units went in alone with each attack having fewer and fewer aircraft. I got my butt kicked hard losing 51 bombers and fighters in the process. Here are the combat reports: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on TF, near Rangoon at 29,34 Japanese aircraft A6M2 Zero x 15 Ki-21 Sally x 26 Allied aircraft Buffalo I x 38 P-40B Tomahawk x 24 I-153c x 20 Japanese aircraft losses A6M2 Zero: 29 destroyed, 1 damaged Ki-21 Sally: 11 destroyed, 8 damaged Allied aircraft losses Buffalo I: 9 destroyed, 4 damaged P-40B Tomahawk: 5 destroyed, 3 damaged I-153c: 10 destroyed Allied Ships AK Empire Hope, Bomb hits 1, on fire -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on TF, near Rangoon at 29,34 Japanese aircraft Ki-21 Sally x 15 Allied aircraft Buffalo I x 32 P-40B Tomahawk x 22 I-153c x 16 Japanese aircraft losses Ki-21 Sally: 20 destroyed, 1 damaged Allied aircraft losses Buffalo I: 2 damaged P-40B Tomahawk: 1 damaged I-153c: 1 damaged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on TF, near Rangoon at 29,34 Japanese aircraft Ki-21 Sally x 27 Allied aircraft Buffalo I x 32 P-40B Tomahawk x 22 I-153c x 16 Japanese aircraft losses Ki-21 Sally: 14 destroyed, 15 damaged Allied aircraft losses Buffalo I: 2 damaged I-153c: 2 damaged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on TF, near Rangoon at 29,34 Japanese aircraft G4M1 Betty x 13 Allied aircraft Buffalo I x 32 P-40B Tomahawk x 22 I-153c x 16 Japanese aircraft losses G4M1 Betty: 5 destroyed, 6 damaged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on TF, near Rangoon at 29,34 Japanese aircraft G4M1 Betty x 6 Allied aircraft Buffalo I x 32 P-40B Tomahawk x 22 I-153c x 16 Japanese aircraft losses G4M1 Betty: 1 damaged Allied aircraft losses I-153c: 2 damaged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on TF, near Rangoon at 29,34 Japanese aircraft G4M1 Betty x 11 Allied aircraft Buffalo I x 32 P-40B Tomahawk x 22 I-153c x 16 Japanese aircraft losses G4M1 Betty: 5 destroyed, 3 damaged Allied aircraft losses Buffalo I: 2 damaged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on TF, near Rangoon at 29,34 Japanese aircraft Ki-21 Sally x 8 Allied aircraft Buffalo I x 32 P-40B Tomahawk x 22 I-153c x 16 Japanese aircraft losses Ki-21 Sally: 2 destroyed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on TF, near Rangoon at 29,34 Japanese aircraft G4M1 Betty x 3 Allied aircraft Buffalo I x 32 P-40B Tomahawk x 22 I-153c x 16 Japanese aircraft losses G4M1 Betty: 5 destroyed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on TF, near Rangoon at 29,34 Japanese aircraft G4M1 Betty x 4 Allied aircraft Buffalo I x 32 P-40B Tomahawk x 22 I-153c x 16 Japanese aircraft losses G4M1 Betty: 1 damaged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on TF, near Rangoon at 29,34 Japanese aircraft G4M1 Betty x 5 Allied aircraft Buffalo I x 32 P-40B Tomahawk x 22 I-153c x 16 Japanese aircraft losses G4M1 Betty: 2 destroyed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on TF, near Rangoon at 29,34 Japanese aircraft A6M2 Zero x 5 Ki-21 Sally x 3 Allied aircraft Buffalo I x 18 P-40B Tomahawk x 11 I-153c x 12 Japanese aircraft losses A6M2 Zero: 8 destroyed Ki-21 Sally: 2 destroyed, 1 damaged Allied aircraft losses P-40B Tomahawk: 1 damaged I-153c: 2 destroyed, 1 damaged Allied Ships AK Empire Rennie -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on TF, near Rangoon at 29,34 Japanese aircraft Ki-21 Sally x 4 Allied aircraft Buffalo I x 18 P-40B Tomahawk x 11 I-153c x 11 Japanese aircraft losses Ki-21 Sally: 1 damaged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on TF, near Rangoon at 29,34 Japanese aircraft G4M1 Betty x 3 Allied aircraft Buffalo I x 18 P-40B Tomahawk x 11 I-153c x 11 Japanese aircraft losses G4M1 Betty: 2 destroyed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on TF, near Rangoon at 29,34 Japanese aircraft G4M1 Betty x 6 Allied aircraft Buffalo I x 18 P-40B Tomahawk x 11 I-153c x 11 Japanese aircraft losses G4M1 Betty: 1 damaged Allied aircraft losses I-153c: 1 damaged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on TF, near Rangoon at 29,34 Japanese aircraft G4M1 Betty x 4 Allied aircraft Buffalo I x 18 P-40B Tomahawk x 11 I-153c x 11 Japanese aircraft losses G4M1 Betty: 2 destroyed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on TF, near Rangoon at 29,34 Japanese aircraft Ki-21 Sally x 5 Allied aircraft Buffalo I x 18 P-40B Tomahawk x 11 I-153c x 11 Japanese aircraft losses Ki-21 Sally: 8 destroyed, 3 damaged Allied aircraft losses P-40B Tomahawk: 1 damaged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on TF, near Rangoon at 29,34 Japanese aircraft Ki-21 Sally x 3 Allied aircraft Buffalo I x 18 P-40B Tomahawk x 11 I-153c x 11 Japanese aircraft losses Ki-21 Sally: 2 damaged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on TF, near Rangoon at 29,34 Japanese aircraft G4M1 Betty x 3 Allied aircraft Buffalo I x 18 P-40B Tomahawk x 11 I-153c x 11 Japanese aircraft losses G4M1 Betty: 1 damaged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on TF, near Rangoon at 29,34 Japanese aircraft G4M1 Betty x 3 Allied aircraft Buffalo I x 18 P-40B Tomahawk x 11 I-153c x 11 Japanese aircraft losses G4M1 Betty: 1 damaged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on TF, near Rangoon at 29,34 Japanese aircraft G4M1 Betty x 3 Allied aircraft Buffalo I x 18 P-40B Tomahawk x 11 I-153c x 11 Japanese aircraft losses G4M1 Betty: 1 damaged -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Their morale used to be pretty good except for 2 of Zero squadrons. Now all are in the toilet. I loaded a later scenario and attempted to reproduce the results and found that more often than not, bombers assigned a secondary mission flew as individual squadrons regardless of whether an escort was available or not and successive strikes got smaller and smaller. When naval attack ONLY was selected all the bombers flew as one group with escort. I was able to duplicate it several times but not every time. Anybody else seen this? Comments. Seems like the game got confused or something. Chez

mogami -> RE: Anybody had this happen? (2/23/2005 11:22:26 AM)
Hi, I've had them do that even with only 1 mission selected. (ground attack no secondary mission and each group attacked alone) However I had no HQ and the base the slightly overloaded. I moved in a HQ and removed excess aircraft and they began making better strikes. Although I still had them from time to time make more then 1 strike on a target. Did only 1 group of A6M2 fly or did each group only send a few planes?

AmiralLaurent -> RE: Anybody had this happen? (2/23/2005 11:25:48 AM)
Unescorted raids are a pain in the a.. for any Japanese player. One day or another you will lose tens of planes in one of them. You can only pray for that. I never used secondary attack with Japanese air units. Japanese pilots are too valuable to be lost against secondary targets. And I have very few unescorted raids. But I will also never send a raid from a base where i don't have at least 1 fighter with good morale and exp and low fatigue for every 2 bombers sent. Betties and Nells are awesome ship killers but they are unable to do much against other targets. If I have to bomb port or airfields, I will rather use Army bombers. So my naval airmen (both bombers and airmen) are well rested and motivated for each naval mission. To be honest, I may also use them for ground attack, when i guess some additionnal air support may be sufficient to change the results of a battle. Edited: After more reflexion, I think most unescorted raids took place in the afternoon phase in my games. I know that aerial actvity is not the same in the morning and the afternoon, as aircraft flying CAP over a given base are far more active in surrounding hexes in the morning. That may be linked with fatigue. Test with fighters units flying 50% CAP and 50% escort and then flying 0% CAP. I bet first one will fly less escort missions (and with less planes, of course) than the second. So if you have 3 fighters units in a base, it may be better to have one purely defensive and other only flying escort. I often play like that with big bases so that may be another explanation why I seem to send less unescorted raids than other Japanese players. Or maybe we only heard the ones complaining.

ChezDaJez -> RE: Anybody had this happen? (2/23/2005 11:29:07 AM)
Only one escort group flew. I've got an Air HQ (25th IIRC) there and 11k in supply along with an Av Rgt and 2 base forces. Tavoy is level 4 AF and I have 237 aviation support points. Did have 171 aircraft but now it's "somewhat" less. Morale in almost every sqaudron is less than 20. Oh, well. Back to the replacement pools again! Time for some pilot R+R. Got any spare IJN pilots to loan? Chez

ChezDaJez -> RE: Anybody had this happen? (2/23/2005 11:38:46 AM)
I set them to Naval Attack and Port aAttack because the Repulse and Revenge had both been badly damaged in a surface engagement and I wasn't sure if they had been disbanded or still in a TF docked in Rangoon. As you can see the Allied CAP didn't vary hardly except for a few losses. The same CAP engaged every wave but became less effective as the raids kept coming. The worst part is my opponent says the morale in his Buffalo squadrons has gone sky high!!! This is my first PBEM and I'm learning that the tactics that worked against the AI aren't quite as effective here. The learning curve is proving pretty steep but Japan will prevail in the end!!! Now I just have to convince Tristanjohn of that. Chez

Gen.Hoepner -> RE: Anybody had this happen? (2/23/2005 11:49:52 AM)
I guess the unescorted raids must be addressed to the morale/fatigue of the zeros. After the first raid they got smashed and when they came back they probably did not passed the morale-check. The uncoordinated strike is probably related with so many variables that it's impossible to tell. pretty historical i'd say. there were so many examples during WWII of uncordinated strikes that i'd be really disappointed if this kind of things weren't modelled in this game

ChezDaJez -> RE: Anybody had this happen? (2/23/2005 12:03:06 PM)
quote: The uncoordinated strike is probably related with so many variables that it's impossible to tell. pretty historical i'd say. there were so many examples during WWII of uncordinated strikes that i'd be really disappointed if this kind of things weren't modelled in this game I don't know if the game was modeled to do that but the Japanese did have problems coordinating large formations IRL so there is a historical basis for getting screwed. Not complaining, just hoping I can figure out how not to let it happen again. I suppose that if my groups had been well-rested, this probably wouldn't have happened but Repulse and Revenge were just too tempting!!! BTW, after this dismal performance, I grounded the aircraft and sent a CA task force to Rangoon. Result: 18 AKs, 2 PTs and 1 MSW sunk and Repulse and Revenge hit again (hvy damage on both) for the loss of only 1 DD to a PT torpedo! So I'm happy again[:D]. Chez

von Murrin -> RE: Anybody had this happen? (2/23/2005 12:41:43 PM)
Looks like you got the absolute worst combination of rolls, then an excellent set with the surface TF.[;)] Results can be incredibly random on occasion.

Twotribes -> RE: Anybody had this happen? (2/23/2005 2:43:24 PM)
Did you set the fighters to naval attack? Or leave them for escort duty?

ChezDaJez -> RE: Anybody had this happen? (2/23/2005 9:32:12 PM)
escort duty with 20% CAP. Chez

Tristanjohn -> RE: Anybody had this happen? (2/24/2005 6:05:50 AM)
Chez, the morale of my fighters went up across the board except for one unit of inexperienced Chinese aviators (I've taken them out of service temporarily as a consequence) due to shooting down so many of your planes. I try not to use my air assets in general unless morale is 75 or more and fatigue below 25. I've no idea where your Zero squadrons fell with that in mind before you launched that mission. As far as coordination goes, there is, if anything, too much of this. Just look at my CAP. No way all those fighters should have been able to meet each successive wave of your bombers (unless they came in very spread out, and even then a plane only carries so much ammunition!) yet they did. That's a definition of dumb. It would have been equally dumb had your escorts been able to fly with each wave. There's just too much coordination at times. Again, if I were you I wouldn't fly my planes every day. Let them get some rest, send them in only when everyone's fresh and in good spirits. If nothing else that would more closely model real life. Just because the game wamts to play ahistorically at times doesn't mean we have to.

Ron Saueracker -> RE: Anybody had this happen? (2/24/2005 7:04:21 AM)
These are yet more examples of a major flaw with the Air Combat model. When squadrons are assigned to ground attack, even though the strike may be coordinated, the game treats the strike as if it is uncoordinated as the strike splits to hit seperate LCUs. One can argue that the LCUs are spread out but then so would the CAP, yet the CAP gets a full attack vs EACH group as it hits the LCUs. Oh, don't get me going about squadrons failing a morale check!!! Oh poop, I can't fly today...I have issues!

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