Why did japan never build hurricanes? (Full Version)

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BossGnome -> Why did japan never build hurricanes? (2/23/2005 4:39:50 PM)

My question in in fact, rather simple: why did japan, in the late war, never build any hurricane II-like aircraft? It seems to me that the benefits of a very short ranged, heavily armoured aircraft wouldve made themselves felt during, say, the Okinawa campaign. Instead of building moderately armoured very maneuverable aircraft, wouldn't it have been a good idea to build an extremely heavily armoured one? Its not like untrained kamikaze pilots could make use of their plane's great maneuverability anyways...

so, what do you think, people who know more about this than I do?



paullus99 -> RE: Why did japan never build hurricanes? (2/23/2005 4:43:28 PM)

Japan could only build some much with what industry they did have. Their production lines were maxed out with existing aircraft models (or those already in the development pipeline) - to make wholesale redesigns was beyond their capabilities - plus by the time Okinawa rolled around, we were busy burning most of their cities (and remaining industries) to the ground.



hithere -> RE: Why did japan never build hurricanes? (2/23/2005 5:39:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BossGnome

My question in in fact, rather simple: why did japan, in the late war, never build any hurricane II-like aircraft? It seems to me that the benefits of a very short ranged, heavily armoured aircraft wouldve made themselves felt during, say, the Okinawa campaign. Instead of building moderately armoured very maneuverable aircraft, wouldn't it have been a good idea to build an extremely heavily armoured one? Its not like untrained kamikaze pilots could make use of their plane's great maneuverability anyways...

so, what do you think, people who know more about this than I do?


please forgive me if i am wrong, but i did not think the hurricane had any armor. wasn't it made of wood and fabric? I am not 100% sure about the hurricane II



janushm -> RE: Why did japan never build hurricanes? (2/23/2005 5:59:24 PM)

i beleve that was one of the strengths of the hurri taking damage.........just like the wellington



hithere -> RE: Why did japan never build hurricanes? (2/23/2005 6:10:27 PM)

which one was one of the strengths? the armor or the cloth. i'm sticking with the cloth .....eitherway, the original poster has a point, i wonder why japan did not follow the lead of another island nation that beat the odds. ofcourse, i still don't think it would have really mattered.



AmiralLaurent -> RE: Why did japan never build hurricanes? (2/23/2005 6:11:03 PM)

Hurricanes in 1944 would have been decimated by any Allied fighter.

The main problem Japan has to build armored planes is that they increase the weight of the plane and Japanese engines were not powerful enough for them.

In late war, late Japanese designs like the Frank or the Shiden were nevertheless comparable to Allied fighters. Too few, too late and no more good pilots to fly them or gas to start them.



spence -> RE: Why did japan never build hurricanes? (2/23/2005 6:33:02 PM)

Japan's problem at least until the very end was that the aircraft engines produced by their manufacturers developed much less horsepower than Allied aircraft engine manufacturers. Thus they couldn't go sticking heavy armor and armament on their planes or the planes would have flown like a brick.



Crimguy -> RE: Why did japan never build hurricanes? (2/23/2005 6:43:35 PM)

Not to mention the Japanese didn't have the raw materials to begin with (metal, that is).



BossGnome -> RE: Why did japan never build hurricanes? (2/23/2005 7:05:50 PM)

yeah, i didnt mean the original hurricane, i meant the Hurricane II. And yes it is very good at taking damage, in WITP it has an armour value of 2. As for the hypothetical heavily armoured japanese planes getting decimated: I have no doubt that that would happen! However, if your pilot sucks, how can you expect him to use a maneuverable design welL? isnt it better to give him a slightly less maneuverable design but much more resistant to make him survive? But then again I understand why they neever built any heavy armour planes, if their engines werent powerful enough. Why was that by the way? why were japanese engineers not able to build engines as powerful as the allies? lack of materials?



AmiralLaurent -> RE: Why did japan never build hurricanes? (2/23/2005 7:18:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BossGnome
Why was that by the way? why were japanese engineers not able to build engines as powerful as the allies? lack of materials?


Remember that in the ten years from 1935 to 1945 the fighters evolved from biplanes to jet planes. Engine power, aircraft weight, armor and firepower were increased even more than speed.

Japan had not enough engineers to advance as fast as American. Priority was before war on range and maneuvrability (sp?) and it was hard to change this once the war was on, especially as it worked at start.

One of the reasons Japanese didn't manage to build a reliable high-power engine was the bad quality of their alliages IIRC. Bad maybe being harsh here, but not up to German or American standards (at the time).



Bobthehatchit -> RE: Why did japan never build hurricanes? (2/23/2005 7:29:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BossGnome

yeah, i didnt mean the original hurricane, i meant the Hurricane II. And yes it is very good at taking damage, in WITP it has an armour value of 2. As for the hypothetical heavily armoured japanese planes getting decimated: I have no doubt that that would happen! However, if your pilot sucks, how can you expect him to use a maneuverable design welL? isnt it better to give him a slightly less maneuverable design but much more resistant to make him survive? But then again I understand why they neever built any heavy armour planes, if their engines werent powerful enough. Why was that by the way? why were japanese engineers not able to build engines as powerful as the allies? lack of materials?


Lack of skilled engineers and machinist didn't help matters, allot of the more powerful engines produced buy the Japs were more complicated to build and less tolerant of poor quality construction and finishing, meaning they we not as power full or a reliable as the could have been.

Think of it like porting and flowing a car engine, having it blue printed and tuned etc you can get a shed load more power out of an engine that is set up perfectly.

Hurriane type air craft would have been a good idea, as it would have been easier to produce and repair with the resources and supplies available, shot the wings of a hurri up you need a bit of wood working skill some material and varnish then you're good to go, shoot a metal skinned wing up you need skilled metal workers and equipment to do a proper job, makes it harder to maintain such air craft at rough field/forward air fields.



madmickey -> RE: Why did japan never build hurricanes? (2/23/2005 7:32:15 PM)

What was the range of Hurricane? Could you fly kamikaze from the mainland to Okinawa with the Hurricane II?



panda124c -> RE: Why did japan never build hurricanes? (2/23/2005 7:56:27 PM)

Tojo, Tojo, Tojo


http://www.xs4all.nl/~fbonne/warbirds/ww2htmls/nakaki44.html



Tom Hunter -> RE: Why did japan never build hurricanes? (2/23/2005 7:57:13 PM)

In addition to the technical issues already mentioned there were social reasons (resons imposed by the polictical or or cultural climate for example Nazis refusing to work with Jewish scientists) why the Japanese did not build heavy fighter bombers.

The Japanese knew that the Allies had much more industrial power, population and resources then Japan. So they conviced themselves that innate Japanese superiority would win them the war. Sure the allies had more planes but the Japanese pilot would be better trained flying a more manuverable aircraft, he would out manuever the allied pilot and shoot him down because he was Japanese and the other guy was just some degenerate round eye.

Of course this was just another untrue example of the stupid theories about racial superiority that caused so much suffering in the 20th century. But it did impact Japanese aircraft design among other things.



ChezDaJez -> RE: Why did japan never build hurricanes? (2/23/2005 8:30:37 PM)

quote:

Not to mention the Japanese didn't have the raw materials to begin with (metal, that is).


Actually they had the materials. They produced 2572 aircraft in 1944 compared to 700 in 1941 and launched over 1.6 million tons of steel ships in 1944 compared with 238 thousand tons in 1941.

Their problem was a lack of oil, coal and coke in the home islands due to the heavy losses to their merchant fleet. According to the Strategic Bombing Survey, Japan's production would have to drop 40-50% by the end of 1945 because imports of fuel was not enough to power the number of electrical generating plants required to keep the industry operating. The amount of materials to make steel and such was available in good quantities. They just didn't have the power to smelt it left.

Chez



ChezDaJez -> RE: Why did japan never build hurricanes? (2/23/2005 8:35:11 PM)

quote:

Of course this was just another untrue example of the stupid theories about racial superiority that caused so much suffering in the 20th century. But it did impact Japanese aircraft design among other things.



You're so right there ...and of course we thought that no "slant-eye" could ever build anything of any quality. We sure got a rude awakening about that point of view the moment a A6M2 appeared over Pearl Harbor.

Some lessons take a while to learn.

Chez



madmickey -> RE: Why did japan never build hurricanes? (2/24/2005 1:01:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez


You're so right there ...and of course we thought that no "slant-eye" could ever build anything of any quality. We sure got a rude awakening about that point of view the moment a A6M2 appeared over Pearl Harbor.

Some lessons take a while to learn.

Chez

Of course in the Movie Bridge over the River Kwai (1957) the Japanese did not know how to build a bridge and depended on British Engineer. Of course in the British Empire there was The Tay Bridge collapse, The Quebec Bridge collapse, The Quebec Bridge center span collapse, The Vancouver second narrow collapse. But Bridge over the River Kwai was written by communist who somehow believed that working as a unit would prevent death for malnourished overworked bunch of prisoner. This actually sounds like the Nazis who put up a sign in their concentration camp that work will set you free. But of course to me the difference between Commie and Nazis was the Commie had an inefficient economic system. Also who makes more reliable cars the British or the Japanese?



RUPD3658 -> RE: Why did japan never build hurricanes? (2/24/2005 1:10:29 AM)

On land the Japs also needed a decent submachine gun, tank, and anti tank weapon (Panzerfaust clone).

The whole Japanese military was designed to fight the Chineese who were also lacking in modern weapons. Their mentality was that the fighting man's spirit was more important than the quality of his weapons.

I guess they learned that Bubba with a Thompson beats a samuri with a type 99 bolt action. [sm=00000106.gif]



pasternakski -> RE: Why did japan never build hurricanes? (2/24/2005 1:41:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez
and of course we thought that no "slant-eye" could ever build anything of any quality. We sure got a rude awakening about that point of view the moment a A6M2 appeared over Pearl Harbor.

What do you mean "we," white man? Your characterization of 1940s Americans as a herd of condescending, inept, blindly prejudiced morons is way out of line and absolutely insupportable.



Tom Hunter -> RE: Why did japan never build hurricanes? (2/24/2005 1:52:26 AM)

My impression is that Chez is pretty much on the money about both the Western attitude towards the Japanese and thier attitude towards the West.

Recently people have started writing books about this aspect of the war (which I have yet to read) I know there was terrible racism on our side and I gather it was just as bad on theirs.

"Your characterization of 1940s Americans as a herd of condescending, inept, morons is way out of line and absolutely insupportable. "

I don't think any of these things were universally true of America in the 1940s

"blindly prejudiced" but this one was.



ChezDaJez -> RE: Why did japan never build hurricanes? (2/24/2005 5:57:07 AM)

quote:

What do you mean "we," white man? Your characterization of 1940s Americans as a herd of condescending, inept, blindly prejudiced morons is way out of line and absolutely insupportable.


Exactly what I said. Look at all the cariactures of the Japanese in the American press during the 1930s and 40s depicting them as bumbling and inept, wearing thick, round glasses and saying "flying pan" instead of "frying pan." And we weren't alone. England, France and the rest of the Allies also held this same view that the Japanese were a backward people incapable of designing and producing anything that could compete with our weapons.

Afterall, it wasn't that long before the war that Japan was having England build and design her battle fleet because she didn't have the industry or the knowledge. But the Japanese learned fast though and their industriousness, intelligence and arrogance collided head-on with ours and millions died.

Racism is multi-national and multi-cultural. No one race has a lock on it.

Chez



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