What's Australia like? (Full Version)

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romanovich -> What's Australia like? (2/24/2005 11:35:57 AM)

Not sure if this is the proper place for such inquiry, but here goes anyhow:
I play WITP for the first time and as Jap against AI. I've advanced across the board (June 42) with the Allies confined to PM (I've secured Shortland, Lunga and the rest). But boy, since the AI has only one place to send all those planes to, that's were they're going. My token forces in Lae and Gili-Gili just get annihilated by the combined Allied air power.

In comparison, the North shore of Australia looks sunny, nice and peaceful. Even though I've built out Timor, no reaction from the AI.

I remember being warned that there are Australian "home defence"-forces who are on the ready on Australian territory. Would it be unwise to engage forces that may or may not be limited to the confines of Australia? Is it feasible as the Jap player to attempt a landing in North Australia?

I'd rather see the summer of '42 through in this campaign and not get slaughtered at the Port of Darwin because I try what the game doesn't want you to do (like in Uncommon Valor trying to invade Noumea: NOT a good idea...). Any hints from the pros?



String -> RE: What's Australia like? (2/24/2005 12:07:06 PM)

Indvading darwin shouldn't be too hard.. whats the use tho?



kaiser73 -> RE: What's Australia like? (2/24/2005 12:24:34 PM)

IMO, any attack should be made only:
1) to gain resources (if Japan)
2) to trap and annhilate (make them surrender) enemy units (which won't be used later on against you)
3) to gain a strategic advantage (for example taking Canton oblige US to move resources from a long way and you can try to distrupt his supply lines)
4) to get a base in order to attack another which gives you 1 2 or 3

Any other attack is IMO a waste of resources, units, time. and it makes you weaker since the more you get, the more you have to defend, the more spread you will be.

Now, invading Australia should be done ONLY if you really plan and are confident to be able to conquer all. Just going for Darwin brings no advantage.



Feinder -> RE: What's Australia like? (2/24/2005 4:26:11 PM)

The only reason you need to invade Oz...

Women to men ratio is 2 - 1.

(at least that's what I hear, an you're welcome to not destroy my little fantasy with any real facts)

Besides, any country that recognizes "The Force" as a religeon (ala Jedi Masters), has got to be a cool place to live (at least they have a sense of humor).

-F-



esteban -> RE: What's Australia like? (2/24/2005 6:15:26 PM)

What do players think about taking North Oz to:

A) gain the two 300 resource centers there

B) Keep the Allies from setting up bomber bases at Darwn, etc. to blast the SRA?



rogueusmc -> RE: What's Australia like? (2/24/2005 8:20:02 PM)

300 resource points is nothing. Oil is your main need.



romanovich -> RE: What's Australia like? (2/25/2005 2:54:24 AM)

There's no oil in PM either, still everyone is battling for it...
My thought was that in order to relief pressure on bases in New Guinea, an attack in Northern Australia would open a second front (facing bomber attacks with 120 B-26B in a single run is no fun in Lae). I'm not even sure that the AI will model historic realities; obviously an attack on Australian homeland would have made that battlefield a priority - and might have led the Allies to take their eyes a bit off New Guinea. I'll test in my game if the AI gives a historically plausible response.

That said, please stop me if I got this wrong: based on everyone's replies I reason that Port Darwin DOES NOT have unlimited numbers of enemy forces that can crush any attempt to invade, like Noumea had in UV. Correct?



Tom Hunter -> RE: What's Australia like? (2/25/2005 3:02:00 AM)

India, China and Oz are the only places where the allies can put together forces of 200,000 men+ without risk of being cut off from thier supplies by Japanese naval superiority. You have to fight in China, India will come and get you eventually, the troops in Oz need political point expenditure to leave.

So if you invade you tangle with more troops earlier and Wyndham and Broome are not too far away either so to keep Allied planes from cutting you off you probabley need to take them too. Pretty soon you have a big army far from home fighting a big army that IS home.

Personally there is nothing I would like to see more than Blackwatch invade Darwin.



romanovich -> RE: What's Australia like? (2/25/2005 3:12:29 AM)

Thanks, Tom. Valid thoughts. Yet it is too tempting to have the AI mass EVERYTHING in PM and not consider the obvious option of striking where somehow no one seems home: North Australia... It's sad that the AI does such a thing, as any human player would at least consider the North Coast vulnerable and put some forces there (I'd think...)

I've monitored traffic on the North Coast of Australia and nothing moves in or out. The coastal towns seem far, far away from the power centers in the East and South - even by land -. If there's no quirk in WITP that gives the Allies unreasonable resources on attempt to invade, I'm tempted to give it a try.

Historically, an invasion scenario was contemplated by the Japanese command. They just had Midway happen...[:'(]

Thanks for your reply.



Tom Hunter -> RE: What's Australia like? (2/25/2005 3:24:54 AM)

Against the AI things are different. The AI does not pay PP to release Australians, they are released at certain times. Against the AI you might be able to surround and destroy a large force of Australians but I doubt that will happen against a human.

Its not a great deal Vs the AI but it might work. If you can destroy enough enemy troops to get the 4-1 point victory.



romanovich -> RE: What's Australia like? (2/25/2005 3:42:35 AM)

I've done nothing but surround and destroy large Allied forces in China. They sit there and wait to be surrounded and slaughtered. So how would Australians be different? The AI also has taken on the habit of sending large, nearly unescorted convoys to isolated Allied bases in the Dutch territory - right past legions of my bored bombing squadrons. You can sink them one by one - and by now there should hardly be any transport left...
Sad, it kind of takes the fun out of the game.

Guess you'll have to play a human to get a real game.

roman and out.



BlackVoid -> RE: What's Australia like? (2/25/2005 12:29:31 PM)

As for AI concentrating in PBEM:
Hit it hard with everything you have. Bombers, BBs, carriers. Shut the airfield down and invade. The AI will loose all the bomber groups there.



castor troy -> RE: What's Australia like? (2/25/2005 1:27:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: romanovich

There's no oil in PM either, still everyone is battling for it...


Everyone? Against AI I donīt care about PM! Why should I take it. Allies have a single base where they have to send planes, troops, ships, supplies.... And my bombers from Gili Gili only have to fly a few hexes to send them to the bottom. Havenīt played PBEM but even then I donīt see why I should invade PM - just cut them off! I rather would go for Efate than for PM.



Tom Hunter -> RE: What's Australia like? (2/25/2005 2:27:36 PM)

If the Japanese hold PM then the 4 engine bombers can't hit Rabaul. Some players consider this important. Personally I have only played allied so I can't say if its a big advantage or not but Blackwatch has not wrestled PM from me yet so we may never know.



castor troy -> RE: What's Australia like? (2/25/2005 2:42:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter

If the Japanese hold PM then the 4 engine bombers can't hit Rabaul. Some players consider this important. Personally I have only played allied so I can't say if its a big advantage or not but Blackwatch has not wrestled PM from me yet so we may never know.


And if the Jap is just once able to bring in some BBs and several CAs to bombard it the allied player loses most of his planes at night to Jap 8"-18" shells.



Feinder -> RE: What's Australia like? (2/25/2005 4:45:02 PM)

I'm not really understanding this thread, but if you're talking about invading Oz...

"Good luck with that."

Against the AI, I'm sure you could capture the north coast, altho it would likely be costly. Oz has something on the order of 8 Divisions, 10 Brigades, and 2 Armored Regiments. None of them suck. Plus there's the refugees from SRA and Philipines. Plus any Americans on their way to New Guinea. That's a LOT of guys you're going to have to fight. Even if your fighting against the AI, destroying them one at a time would be tough. Whatever you think is necessary to take all that crap, is probably be better served, committing them to China or Inda. They'd be a lot easier to supply, and get you similar gains in VPs and resources.

But in PBEM, your human opponent knows that the north coast is potentially vulnerable. He knows where to properly mass his forces (and to defend the backfield also!). Frankly, I don't think IJA stands a chance in Oz; I'd welcome an attack on Oz by my PBEM opponents.

-F-



moses -> RE: What's Australia like? (2/26/2005 4:14:21 AM)

In real life an attempt to conquer Austrailia is almost unthinkable. In the game I think it is achievable against a human.

Not all of the Austrailian units can be massed against the main Japanese force as they have to defend all the coastal cities against seaborne assault. Japan has the wonderful railroad which allows rapid movement from the north toward either Perth or Townsville area and can move by sea. Supply is not really an issue because with one good 100K load of supply and the resourses to be produced and captured in north Austrailia you'll have plenty.

Japan would of course have to fully commit to this effort sending 7 or 8 divisions and a full naval commitment early in 42. Even then it would not be a sure thing as the winner would likely be determined by who won the first big army sized battle. If the allied force retreats a couple Jap divisions its all over. But if its the allies who get 4 or 5 divisions retreated I suspect that austrailia will be entirely conquered or reduced to a couple cities.

Change to an historical rail net and Japan has no plausable chance.



AmiralLaurent -> RE: What's Australia like? (2/26/2005 3:18:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: moses

In real life an attempt to conquer Austrailia is almost unthinkable. In the game I think it is achievable against a human.

Not all of the Austrailian units can be massed against the main Japanese force as they have to defend all the coastal cities against seaborne assault. Japan has the wonderful railroad which allows rapid movement from the north toward either Perth or Townsville area and can move by sea. Supply is not really an issue because with one good 100K load of supply and the resourses to be produced and captured in north Austrailia you'll have plenty.

Japan would of course have to fully commit to this effort sending 7 or 8 divisions and a full naval commitment early in 42. Even then it would not be a sure thing as the winner would likely be determined by who won the first big army sized battle. If the allied force retreats a couple Jap divisions its all over. But if its the allies who get 4 or 5 divisions retreated I suspect that austrailia will be entirely conquered or reduced to a couple cities.

Change to an historical rail net and Japan has no plausable chance.


Japan can probably seize part of Australia but invading the whole of it... The Australian Army is roughly as big as the whole Southern Army and SE Australia cities will well be fortified before you may reach them. Not to speak of B-17 crushing every Japanese base. Marching ten hexes along a railyard outisde LRCAP range and under B-17 range would be a real bad time for the Japanese ground forces.
And you can't bring China or Kwantung there for free... even after crushing Soviet Siberia in 2 weeks... :(



moses -> RE: What's Australia like? (2/26/2005 3:27:44 PM)

You're thinking real life now where I'm just talking game. Taking north austrailia will not be hard and once taken the B17's can no longer reach those bases.

At that point Japan has the initiative and can move its forces very quickly by rail or sea while Austrailia has to defend all its cities and a very long coast.

Not that it will be easy or a sure thing. But it can be attempted in the game with some fair chance of success.

Somthing must be done in any event or the allies will move supplies along the non-historical rail line and make Darwin the primary axis of advance into the SRA.



Marten -> RE: What's Australia like? (2/28/2005 11:59:15 AM)

has AI ever landed in australia?



kaiser73 -> RE: What's Australia like? (2/28/2005 12:26:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: moses

You're thinking real life now where I'm just talking game. Taking north austrailia will not be hard and once taken the B17's can no longer reach those bases.

At that point Japan has the initiative and can move its forces very quickly by rail or sea while Austrailia has to defend all its cities and a very long coast.

Not that it will be easy or a sure thing. But it can be attempted in the game with some fair chance of success.

Somthing must be done in any event or the allies will move supplies along the non-historical rail line and make Darwin the primary axis of advance into the SRA.


how do you plan to actually defend what you get?
You know, the rails work for the Australians as well. they can their move divs to reconquer it unless you deploy there many divs from the SRA forces. but then again, how you can defend the rest? Rabaul? mariannes? all the other islands?
I prefer to defend on atolls with my divs, when Allies has to unload, where i can damage them with navy and air rather than beeing dragged in a fight in australia where all Allied Player has to do is to send to derby 4-5 divs through railroad.

Again, attacking Australia in north can be useful only if you think you can conquer it all.



moses -> RE: What's Australia like? (2/28/2005 6:32:30 PM)

Well the problem is taking it in the first place which is not a sure thing. But to answer the question, once you take it the defence is not all that hard.

You've destroyed virtually the entire Austrailia army. Thats a lot of ground force lost forever. Plus probably half of the austrailian industry has been destroyed by the conquest and more will be destroyed if the allies try to take it back.

I would probably garrison the whole west coast with small SNLF/split independent bdes, etc. I'd put a division in Perth and maybe two in north Austrailia. Then I'll just suck the place dry of all supply/resourses/fuel/oil while I still have the navy to protect the coast.

Once the allies gain navel superiority in 43 they can have it back if they want. But now all those US divisions have to waste months reconquering austrailia and will have to stay there as garrison forces. After that he will have to dump tons of supply into the country just to get bases up to the required supply levels.


How many divisional size units does the us have in 43? I've never checked. It may even be possible for Japan to keep 6 or 7 divisions in N austrailia and then if US tries an invasion with only a few divisions sweep down that wonderful non-historical rail line and detroy that force.



herbieh -> RE: What's Australia like? (2/28/2005 10:25:29 PM)

I invaded Australia against AI early on
Very easy to take all the northern ports
Sorry, absolutely no AI reaction
So now Im getting and have got heaps of resources for very cheap outlay
AI not up to taking the places back
It has saved Ambonia oil getting damaged too
(also took PM and GG and Lunga)
After taking these places in mid 42 the AI has just gone dormant, its 3/43 and no real reaction, a few bombardment runs, thats it
If you want a challenging game, dont take PM, and leave Lunga very lightly defended I think
Thats why PBEM is only way to go



romanovich -> RE: What's Australia like? (3/1/2005 3:19:37 AM)

That may be the biggest deterrent of invading North Australia. Even though it would make sense strategically - and the Japanese in real life did plan to do so at one point - you won't get a satisfactory response from the AI (if you play the computer as a human). I'm not sure how the game is structured, but it would be my guess that if the Japs held the northern coastal cities in Australia, the distance to the Australian main forces in the South (and East) would be too great for the AI to understand that there is a need to do something about the situation. Is there some sort of trigger distance for enemy action?

If I'm right, that'd be very sad and take the fun out of the scenario. Imagine - the Japs conquering half of Australia and the Allies sitting back and smoking a pipe... Not sure if I want to do it now. Thanks, Herbieh. That last post nailed it!



moses -> RE: What's Australia like? (3/1/2005 4:46:25 AM)

Austrailia has only four infantry divisions at the start and 3 of the four are not in that good of shape. I suspect a Japanese player who lands 6 divisions in north Austrailia in Feb of 42 can sweep the whole country.



kaiser73 -> RE: What's Australia like? (3/1/2005 10:59:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: moses

Well the problem is taking it in the first place which is not a sure thing. But to answer the question, once you take it the defence is not all that hard.

You've destroyed virtually the entire Austrailia army. Thats a lot of ground force lost forever. Plus probably half of the austrailian industry has been destroyed by the conquest and more will be destroyed if the allies try to take it back.

I would probably garrison the whole west coast with small SNLF/split independent bdes, etc. I'd put a division in Perth and maybe two in north Austrailia. Then I'll just suck the place dry of all supply/resourses/fuel/oil while I still have the navy to protect the coast.

Once the allies gain navel superiority in 43 they can have it back if they want. But now all those US divisions have to waste months reconquering austrailia and will have to stay there as garrison forces. After that he will have to dump tons of supply into the country just to get bases up to the required supply levels.


How many divisional size units does the us have in 43? I've never checked. It may even be possible for Japan to keep 6 or 7 divisions in N austrailia and then if US tries an invasion with only a few divisions sweep down that wonderful non-historical rail line and detroy that force.


sorry, i was asking how to defend only north australia (the issue for me was why invading north of australia unless wanting to conquer all australia).



herbieh -> RE: What's Australia like? (3/1/2005 10:23:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: romanovich

That may be the biggest deterrent of invading North Australia. Even though it would make sense strategically - and the Japanese in real life did plan to do so at one point - you won't get a satisfactory response from the AI (if you play the computer as a human). I'm not sure how the game is structured, but it would be my guess that if the Japs held the northern coastal cities in Australia, the distance to the Australian main forces in the South (and East) would be too great for the AI to understand that there is a need to do something about the situation. Is there some sort of trigger distance for enemy action?

If I'm right, that'd be very sad and take the fun out of the scenario. Imagine - the Japs conquering half of Australia and the Allies sitting back and smoking a pipe... Not sure if I want to do it now. Thanks, Herbieh. That last post nailed it!


Ahhh, no problem grasshopper
However, what I have done is allowed Japan to be in very strong position mid 43
and AI on back foot
Now I change sides.......[:'(]



romanovich -> RE: What's Australia like? (3/2/2005 12:22:39 AM)

Traitor!



mutterfudder -> RE: What's Australia like? (3/2/2005 3:50:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

The only reason you need to invade Oz...

Women to men ratio is 2 - 1.

(at least that's what I hear, an you're welcome to not destroy my little fantasy with any real facts)

Besides, any country that recognizes "The Force" as a religeon (ala Jedi Masters), has got to be a cool place to live (at least they have a sense of humor).

-F-




2 to 1?


Now woulda be countin the ones over sixty?[;)]



Raverdave -> RE: What's Australia like? (3/6/2005 8:50:16 AM)

Actually it is more like 4 to 1 ratio, and I must admitt that nearly all aussie men are in a crisis at the moment in that we are having trouble keeping them all pleasured.



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