The Reising SMG vs the Thompson (Full Version)

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KG Erwin -> The Reising SMG vs the Thompson (3/4/2005 3:10:58 AM)

The Reising Models 50 and 55 SMGs were listed in the D-series USMC TOEs for one reason--the Thompson manufacturer couldn't keep up with demand, so as a stopgap measure, the USMC ordered thousands of the inferior Reisings. There were two variants, with the folding-stock Model 55 intended to go to the Raider and Parachute battalions. Everyone else got the Model 50. This weapon needs to be mentioned in the history of the war, as the stereotype of the Thompson-armed platoon leader has persisted to this day. In 1942-43, it was more likely that he carried one of the Reisings. Some guys liked them, as they were much lighter than the Thompson, but they had one major flaw--they had a propensity to jam in the jungle conditions of Guadalcanal. (Historical note: think of the problems encountered with the early M16s twenty years later in Vietnam).

This played a big part in my latest redesigning of the SPWaW USMC OOB--the Reising has a shorter range (50 yards less in game terms) than the Thompson. When you're facing a mass attack by Japanese infantry, the range difference can mean much--the bad guys can be on top of you that much sooner. However, starting in 1943, the M1 Garands and M1 carbines started replacing these, but they were still in the field until the Raider/Para units were formally disbanded in early 1944.

In historical terms, look at the official TOEs for the E and F-series divisions--they only allow 49 later-model Thompson M1A1s for the WHOLE division. The secondary arm for weapons crews and officers was the M1 Carbine, which was effective at short-range but not as "sexy" as the SMG. (In game-terms, I opted for "mixed small arms"--pistols and carbines-- as secondary weapons for crew-served weapons for the 1930-49 period).

I find this very interesting, as the Thompson in reality was available, but issued in more limited quantities than in popular belief. The image of a tough Platoon Sergeant mowing down the bad guys with one of these was perpetuated by movies, comic books and a few famous WWII photographs, but these instances were rare. Go back to Sledge's "With the Old Breed at Peleliu and Okinawa". His mortar unit acquired a "tommy-gun" by accident, and it was regarded as a big deal.

The prevalence of the Thompson is a popular misconception, and I hope that other OOB designers will take note of this.



Kevin E. Duguay -> RE: The Reising SMG vs the Thompson (3/4/2005 6:28:23 AM)

Erwin,

Yes the Thompson was complicated and took a lot of time to produce in quantity. But, near the end of the War, my friends father (who was issued a 03 Springfield) managed to aquire a Thompson. He was a truck driver for the Red Ball Experss. Eventually he was relived of the Thompson and ended the War with a M1 Carbine.

I have no idea what this has to do with anything. Maybe I just wanted to post!![&:]



Dragoon 45 -> RE: The Reising SMG vs the Thompson (3/4/2005 7:56:39 AM)

My Father came home with some pictures from Okinawa that had some of the platoon members he was a corpsman for in them. There is at least three of them in one picture holding grease guns. He was attached to a rifle platoon, not any kind of speciality platoon. Don't know how common the grease gun was in regards to the Marines. I know we still had some in our armories at Lejeune back in the early 70's when I first joined. If memory serves me correctly they were still being issued to vehicle crewmen (tanks and amtracs) up till the early 80"s. I spent about 6 months assigned to a Force Recon Co in the late 70's and they had just about every military small arm known to man in their armory.



Wild Bill -> RE: The Reising SMG vs the Thompson (3/5/2005 12:28:54 AM)

I would concur with KG's assessment of the Reising and the Thompson. While the preference among Marines was the Thompson, the Reising was used and was effective.

Wild Bill



KG Erwin -> RE: The Reising SMG vs the Thompson (3/21/2005 6:36:58 AM)

More on some of the unusual weapons carried by Marines in the early days of the Pacific War:

Melvin Johnson introduced both a rifle and a light machine gun in 1941, and was in direct competition with John Garand for the adoption of their rifles as the primary weapons of both the US Army and the USMC. As everyone knows, Garand got the contract, but the USMC did purchase some of the Johnson rifles and LMGs. Here's a photo of the .30 cal M1941 light machine gun, which was used by Marine Paras and some Raider units:



[image]local://upfiles/813/5F10B168918A40C3B0652BDDA8B2B140.jpg[/image]

In game terms, the Johnson LMG compares well with the BAR, with an HE Kill of 6 as opposed to the BAR's 5. However, the range of the Johnson was much shorter (10 hexes as opposed to the BAR's 14 hex range). The main reason the Raiders and Paras carried this weapon was its lighter weight as opposed to the bulky Browning.



KG Erwin -> RE: The Reising SMG vs the Thompson (3/21/2005 6:42:36 AM)

Next is a photo of a Marine at Bougainville in Dec 1943, holding one of the Reising SMGs. As I stated earlier, these weapons were intricately designed and were unsuitable for combat conditions in the Pacific. Nevertheless, the USMC ordered thousands of them and they were in common use in 1942-43 until they were replaced by Thompson SMGs and M1 Carbines:


[image]local://upfiles/813/B232FEBD79D445B0AF4CFA247382722B.jpg[/image]

In game terms the Reising is definitely inferior to the Thompson. It's range is 3 hexes (Thompson=4) and HE kill is 3 (Thompson=4). It's no wonder that platoon and company leaders got first dibs on the Thompsons when they became available.



KG Erwin -> RE: The Reising SMG vs the Thompson (3/21/2005 7:49:41 AM)

The point that I want to emphasize is that the Marines who fought at Guadalcanal in 1942 and even at Tarawa and Bougainville in late 1943 didn't have all the weapons at their disposal that are shown in videos of Iwo Jima and Okinawa, which was two years later. The Marines of the early amphibious invasions fought with mostly WWI-era weapons, and there weren't any Sherman tanks until Tarawa. Flamethrowers were first used at Tarawa, and they belonged to the engineers. There were no bazookas available for front-line use until 1944. It wasn't until Saipan in June 1944 that the Marines had a full complement of modern weapons.

The "raggedy-ass" Marines of the early days hold a special place in my heart, as it was they who set the tone for the rest of the war, and well before D-Day in Europe, let the American public know that we would take the battle to the enemy and we would pay the price to win.



Dragoon 45 -> RE: The Reising SMG vs the Thompson (3/21/2005 9:15:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

The point that I want to emphasize is that the Marines who fought at Guadalcanal in 1942 and even at Tarawa and Bougainville in late 1943 didn't have all the weapons at their disposal that are shown in videos of Iwo Jima and Okinawa, which was two years later. The Marines of the early amphibious invasions fought with mostly WWI-era weapons, and there weren't any Sherman tanks until Tarawa. Flamethrowers were first used at Tarawa, and they belonged to the engineers. There were no bazookas available for front-line use until 1944. It wasn't until Saipan in June 1944 that the Marines had a full complement of modern weapons.

The "raggedy-ass" Marines of the early days hold a special place in my heart, as it was they who set the tone for the rest of the war, and well before D-Day in Europe, let the American public know that we would take the battle to the enemy and we would pay the price to win.


I would second that opinion. In 1942/43, the Marines were on the bottom of the totem pole for modern weapons and equipment. What has been a considerable source of amazement for me over the years has been that the Marine Corps accomplished as much as they did with as little as they had.

I find myself in awe of individuals who would cut the seat out of their pants because of disintery rather than be evac'ed to a hospital for their condition. The sacrifices made by the Marines in the early parts of the war have been glossed over and never given the notice that they deserve. I have been shot at in a number of places over the years. There is nothing like a bullet going past your head to really get your attention. But nothing I have done in regards to serving in a combat zone can compare with what the Marines did in the early parts of the war. My only hope is that when I arrive at Fiddler's Green is that I am greeted the same way those Marines were.



Dusan -> RE: The Reising SMG vs the Thompson (3/21/2005 3:32:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dragoon 45
What has been a considerable source of amazement for me over the years has been that the Marine Corps accomplished as much as they did with as little as they had.

Do not want to argue about the well-know quality of U.S. Marines during WWII. However, if we're talking about a Japan front, they were fighting with the enemy equipped with Arisaka repeating rifles which were not only pre WWI design but also not the very best one. Germans also fought with Mauser 98k rifles, again pre WWI design (but probably the best one), Russians used slightly modernized version of pre WWI Mosins etc. It was quite common to fight in WWII with old WWI weapons and generally the Americans during WWII had above average equipment even from the beginning.



Goblin -> RE: The Reising SMG vs the Thompson (3/21/2005 7:54:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dusan


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dragoon 45
What has been a considerable source of amazement for me over the years has been that the Marine Corps accomplished as much as they did with as little as they had.

Do not want to argue about the well-know quality of U.S. Marines during WWII. However, if we're talking about a Japan front, they were fighting with the enemy equipped with Arisaka repeating rifles which were not only pre WWI design but also not the very best one. Germans also fought with Mauser 98k rifles, again pre WWI design (but probably the best one), Russians used slightly modernized version of pre WWI Mosins etc. It was quite common to fight in WWII with old WWI weapons and generally the Americans during WWII had above average equipment even from the beginning.


But the Marines were fighting them with the 1903 Springfield bolt action. Better, yes, but not alot. The Garand did not come into play until much later.


Goblin



Goblin -> RE: The Reising SMG vs the Thompson (3/21/2005 7:55:18 PM)

I think KG knows about when the Garand made any real appearance. I know it was limited except for Raider units.


Goblin



KG Erwin -> RE: The Reising SMG vs the Thompson (3/21/2005 8:52:31 PM)

The M1 Garand was issued to USMC rifle units in 1943. However, when the Raider units were organized in 1942, they were given "carte blanche" for procuring weapons. Evans Carlson got Garands for his 2nd Raider Battalion. Merritt Edson opted to stick with the '03s for his 1st Raiders.



Wild Bill -> RE: The Reising SMG vs the Thompson (3/31/2005 7:25:31 PM)

I just posted an article I wrote a couple of years ago about the introduction of the Garand and the Marine reaction to it in the post on Marine weapons.

http://www.matrixgames.com/default.asp?URL=http%3A//www.matrixgames.com/forums/

WB



Goblin -> RE: The Reising SMG vs the Thompson (3/31/2005 10:54:12 PM)

This link:


http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=827091



Riun T -> RE: The Reising SMG vs the Thompson (4/1/2005 5:40:13 PM)

I've got a question for you, was the magizine well on the Reising capable of taking a drum or barrel type mag. in other words any interchangablity with the thompson?? MORE FIREPOWER??



KG Erwin -> RE: The Reising SMG vs the Thompson (4/1/2005 6:40:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Riun T

I've got a question for you, was the magizine well on the Reising capable of taking a drum or barrel type mag. in other words any interchangablity with the thompson?? MORE FIREPOWER??


Riun, the box magazines were not interchangeable. See this link: http://www.olive-drab.com/od_other_firearms_smg_reising.php



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