Spruance disobeyed orders! (Full Version)

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n818af -> Spruance disobeyed orders! (3/7/2005 1:44:19 AM)

It was Jan 2, 1943. I sent a task froce consisted of two carriers to cover the landing of troops at Salamau, PNG. AI IJN decided to send a TF of six carriers to disrupt the landing. While the transports are unloading, I set my air combat TF to follow the transport TF and set Patrol/No Retirement and reaction to 0. CV TF have enough fuel and ammo; I suppose the CV will stay in the Salamau hex. As a safety measure, I also sent 48 P38s and 12 P40 to Salamau on CAP. Hundreds of LBA at PM is on Naval Strike orders to support my TF. Next day, Spruance reacted to the enemy TF and moved 1 hex east despite my order. Enemy TF is only 4 hexes away thus the move is not necessary in my opinion. Without land based fighters air cover, KB sunk my carriers. Is this a bug or I did something wrong? Still, I will court martial Spruance and recommend that he face the firing squad. [:@]



Gen.Hoepner -> RE: Spruance disobeyed orders! (3/7/2005 1:46:23 AM)

Not a bug. It depends on the aggressiveness of the Commander. For this kind of missions i always prefer to have a very cautious commander. The aggressive ones tend to look for the enemy whatever you have ordered him



n818af -> RE: Spruance disobeyed orders! (3/7/2005 1:48:16 AM)

So the reaction range setting is not absolute?
Thanks, General Hoepner



Gen.Hoepner -> RE: Spruance disobeyed orders! (3/7/2005 1:50:16 AM)

No it's not. And this is very accurate, because if you're nimitz you only can give orders but cannot influence on how these orders are put in action. It would be much easier! And war is not an easy job[8D]



n818af -> RE: Spruance disobeyed orders! (3/7/2005 1:52:16 AM)

Thanks again

I'll have the firing squad ready.



n818af -> RE: Spruance disobeyed orders! (3/7/2005 1:56:05 AM)

Fine, IJN paid a heavy price for this as LBAs sunk all six of their CVs. [:D]



Gen.Hoepner -> RE: Spruance disobeyed orders! (3/7/2005 1:58:19 AM)

IJA AI ...... try to sink 6 carriers with LBA against a human^_^

My opponent sent 220 b-17s against my KB-death star and none of them was able to pass trough my 200 Zeros CAP[8D]



Rob322 -> RE: Spruance disobeyed orders! (3/7/2005 4:23:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: n818af

Fine, IJN paid a heavy price for this as LBAs sunk all six of their CVs. [:D]


Then why break out the firing squad? If the story has a happy ending everything else is just a detail? [:D]

Seriously, in most cases theater commanders would not be giving absolute specific, tactical instructions to each fleet or unit, they would be giving orders to their commanders with direction on the goals and objectives of their mission as well as parameters ("go for it if you can get his carriers without losing more than 25% of your force" sort of thing). If you don't like your commanders doing things, get rid of the ones labeled agressive and go for the cautious ones.



Nomad -> RE: Spruance disobeyed orders! (3/7/2005 4:32:17 AM)

One problem here is that he had the CF TF in a coastal hex. All most any commander will
react one hex to get to open water so he can use 100% of his aircraft.



mogami -> RE: Spruance disobeyed orders! (3/7/2005 4:44:20 AM)

Hi, Several things. If range was 4 before he reacted he reacted because he was about to be attacked and was not in range to counter.
Aircombat TF in coastal/base hexes do not fly full strikes. (Also check range of USN fighters and Dauntless for full loads)
If you had set the landbased CAP to cover the TF rather then the hex it would have been over the CV (your bad not Ray's)
However landbased fighters do not cover CV as well as they do non CV (The CV change direction too often)



What you should have done
1. Transfer the CV airgroups to the landbase
2. run the CV at full speed away from the area.



madflava13 -> RE: Spruance disobeyed orders! (3/7/2005 5:09:08 AM)

Spruance in UV and in WiTP has been a chronic attacker... It's good once you have the forces to go on the offensive, but in the early war periods, I only let him command surface/bombard TFs of mine. I usually give the CVs to Mitscher.



Mike Scholl -> RE: Spruance disobeyed orders! (3/7/2005 10:17:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Several things. If range was 4 before he reacted he reacted because he was about to be attacked and was not in range to counter.
Aircombat TF in coastal/base hexes do not fly full strikes. (Also check range of USN fighters and Dauntless for full loads)
If you had set the landbased CAP to cover the TF rather then the hex it would have been over the CV (your bad not Ray's)
However landbased fighters do not cover CV as well as they do non CV (The CV change direction too often)



What you should have done
1. Transfer the CV airgroups to the landbase
2. run the CV at full speed away from the area.


What makes this kind of thing annoying is that even if you guess everything right in
your orders, there is no guarantee that your "sub-commanders" won't do something else and get themselves clobbered. I could take this in a game against the AI..., but when you are playing PBEM and your opponant is given a victory by the games decisions rather than your own, it is really a crushing experiance.

And it's not as if Spruance (the example given) was a hothead. He held his ground to defend the landings at Philippine Sea rather than charge off like Halsey at Leyte---
so why is the game making him reckless to begin with?

For whatever reason, Orders given should have more effect that the game gives them.
And in no circumstances should the Japanese EVER get more than half of their Fighters
up on CAP. I don't care if the other half are on the deck, or flying escort---but if ALL
are going to be up on CAP, then the possiblilit of catching most of them down to re-fuel should also exist!



mogami -> RE: Spruance disobeyed orders! (3/7/2005 10:29:59 AM)

Hi, No matter what the reaction setting if a CV TF is attacked by an enemy CV TF that is out of range of a counter strike the TF will react into range to launch.
In the example given above the USN TF was not lost because it reacted. (It was going to be attacked no matter)
If the Landbased CAP was supposed to protect it the CAP should have been assigned that mission.

I want my CV TF to react if not reacting means it will suffer an attack and not respond with a counter strike. (Japanese torpedo range is extended USN DB range and out of range of USN torpedo planes before mid 1942



Mike Scholl -> RE: Spruance disobeyed orders! (3/7/2005 12:59:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, No matter what the reaction setting if a CV TF is attacked by an enemy CV TF that is out of range of a counter strike the TF will react into range to launch.
In the example given above the USN TF was not lost because it reacted. (It was going to be attacked no matter)
If the Landbased CAP was supposed to protect it the CAP should have been assigned that mission.

I want my CV TF to react if not reacting means it will suffer an attack and not respond with a counter strike. (Japanese torpedo range is extended USN DB range and out of range of USN torpedo planes before mid 1942


OK if you are looking to attack, MOG. But what if you aren't? Suppose you have those
2 CV's overloaded with Fighters and with many of the attack planes ashore? Maybe
your TF is SUPPOSED to be a flak/CAP trap. designed to butcher the Japanese attack
squadrons rather than fight their carriers (which will almost certainly beat the crap out
of you early in the game). It's the only real answer to the Japanese massive CAP crap,
try to sucker punch the Vals and Kates to pull Kido Butai's teeth.



mogami -> RE: Spruance disobeyed orders! (3/7/2005 1:06:46 PM)

Hi, Once again. No matter what reaction range you set if a CV TF is attacked by enemy CV and it is out of range it will react.
There should be no surprise when it occurs now that you are aware it will do this no matter who is in command. Don't set flak traps where your CV will be attacked and not be able to counter strike. (Because the CV TF will react to counter strike and you can't prevent it.)

(I've lost damaged CV that had reached a friendly port on their movement only to have them react back out to sea and be sunk. It is hard coded response and there have been times it worked but damaged or overloaded or empty CV do not belong where enemy CV can get to them.
To prevent this reaction when CV are being used as ferry or cover for transports or badly damaged place them inside the transport TF or inside an escort TF (they are not flying so it does not matter)
And never move a CV you want to conduct flight ops into a base or coast hex.



Rainerle -> RE: Spruance disobeyed orders! (3/7/2005 2:57:42 PM)

Hi,
so this reaction is (sometimes) nice and all, but it doesn't help if my planes are not set to 'naval attack'! So why do my carriers allways (I got it that way in what you explained above) react, but the mission specifications of the air groups are never swiched? Not very useful to react and have all your kates/vals fly ASW patrol [:-]



mogami -> RE: Spruance disobeyed orders! (3/7/2005 3:07:31 PM)

Hi, Yes you have to be carefull. Keep in mind your TF will react but your airgroups will not.



Sardaukar -> RE: Spruance disobeyed orders! (3/7/2005 5:21:31 PM)

What Spruance ?? What Halsey ?? Leader bug has eaten most of my CV TF commanders...[X(] [:'(] I think Clark is one of the aggressive ilk that is still around.

Cheers,

M.S.



crsutton -> RE: Spruance disobeyed orders! (3/7/2005 6:58:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rainerle

Hi,
so this reaction is (sometimes) nice and all, but it doesn't help if my planes are not set to 'naval attack'! So why do my carriers allways (I got it that way in what you explained above) react, but the mission specifications of the air groups are never swiched? Not very useful to react and have all your kates/vals fly ASW patrol [:-]

quote:

Hi,
so this reaction is (sometimes) nice and all, but it doesn't help if my planes are not set to 'naval attack'! So why do my carriers allways (I got it that way in what you explained above) react, but the mission specifications of the air groups are never swiched? Not very useful to react and have all your kates/vals fly ASW patrol




I think Mogami's earlier post said it all. If your carriers are operating in an area where there is any possibilty of encounter with enemy carriers, then you have to be first and formost prepared for a carrier fight. If you have your SBDs or Avengers set to ASW in this case then you have made a poor tactical decision and must pay the price.

If you think the enemy is about then you must clear for action and always prepare for the worst.



Mike Scholl -> RE: Spruance disobeyed orders! (3/7/2005 9:07:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Yes you have to be carefull. Keep in mind your TF will react but your airgroups will not.


Not trying to be offensive, MOG..., but that's pretty stupid. Who is paying for and playing
the game? Wouldn't it make more sense for the player to suffer the consequences of his
OWN folly (setting the TF to 0 react range and not getting off a counter-strike) than to
suffer the consequences of the GAME's folly (charging off AGAINST the player's instructions?). In this sense (that the game takes/makes a number of important deci-
sions IN SPITE of the player) those who complain that it's over-priced may have a point.
Too have to do so much micro-managing of the theatre---then have a few important and
vital choices taken out of their hands in combat situations is a real pain-in-the-butt.



Roarck -> RE: Spruance disobeyed orders! (3/7/2005 10:27:39 PM)

But the game is not about commanding a carrier group, rather we have commanders working for us. It's up to us to pick who does what and to give the general orders.

Pick a poor and conservative commander and perhaps he will ignore a setting like described here.

Look at possible choices.
1. Follow orders- have CAP on carriers strained and take damage to carriers . (Probably lose most ships in area including carriers.)
2. Take action- Possibly hurt enemy TF enough they withdrawl so you can complete your orders. If you fail outcome is probably still better than in option 1.
3. Withdraw- Maybe save your TF but lose troops and maybe still take massive TF damage.


Looking at it that way option 2 is only reasonable option for a prudent commander. Sure it may hurt your plans but it's best overall course of action.


***Now loading/unloading troops or supplies that's the pain at times!

One thing I'm finding as Allies in this game it's better to be safe than sorry at least in the early years. (One can still do things to slow Japan down but a failed major risk taken will speed Japan up something the allies really do not want!) Was it really the right time to invade here or was it a major gamble?

One more thing chance plays a roll in the game as in real life. For example one dud torp. might be the difference in a fight!



testarossa -> RE: Spruance disobeyed orders! (3/7/2005 11:28:57 PM)

Sometimes disobeying the order can be fine too. I had in one of my games allied surface TF with retire orders attacked jap tf 3 times through the night. CA, CL and some DDs against BB, CAs and DDs. I thought everything would be over. But they managed to inflict some damage to IJN and escape.



mogami -> RE: Spruance disobeyed orders! (3/7/2005 11:33:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Yes you have to be carefull. Keep in mind your TF will react but your airgroups will not.


Not trying to be offensive, MOG..., but that's pretty stupid. Who is paying for and playing
the game? Wouldn't it make more sense for the player to suffer the consequences of his
OWN folly (setting the TF to 0 react range and not getting off a counter-strike) than to
suffer the consequences of the GAME's folly (charging off AGAINST the player's instructions?). In this sense (that the game takes/makes a number of important deci-
sions IN SPITE of the player) those who complain that it's over-priced may have a point.
Too have to do so much micro-managing of the theatre---then have a few important and
vital choices taken out of their hands in combat situations is a real pain-in-the-butt.


Hi, Stupid or not that is the way it is. Before you knew this you could be tricked by the progam. Now that you know exactly what will happen there is no excuse when your CV react to disadvantage. You know they will do it. If you operate like they will not then you are stupid.



CapAndGown -> RE: Spruance disobeyed orders! (3/7/2005 11:46:04 PM)

Excuse me for being confused, but has it changed from UV days when a carrier TF set to follow another TF would NOT react at all if set to no react?



mogami -> RE: Spruance disobeyed orders! (3/8/2005 12:03:11 AM)

Hi, IN UV a CV TF that is attacked by enemy CV and is out of range for counter strike (notice these are always early war USN TF) will react same as in WITP



CapAndGown -> RE: Spruance disobeyed orders! (3/8/2005 12:29:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, IN UV a CV TF that is attacked by enemy CV and is out of range for counter strike (notice these are always early war USN TF) will react same as in WITP


In UV, a carrier TF following another TF would NOT react if set to no react.



mogami -> RE: Spruance disobeyed orders! (3/8/2005 1:50:23 AM)

Hi, In UV any aircombat TF attacked by enemy CV would react unless it was already in range.

CV TF will not let themselves be attacked and not counter strike unless they are out of movement.

The aircombat TF will not react if the TF they are following is attacked. Only if they are attacked and then only if they cannot launch a counter strike without reacting and if they have movement to react.



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