Pictures of ww2 battlefields in Ukraine (Full Version)

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String -> Pictures of ww2 battlefields in Ukraine (3/29/2005 7:45:32 PM)

*clickety click!*



Louis Jones -> RE: Pictures of ww2 battlefields in Ukraine (3/29/2005 7:56:53 PM)

Cool site, thanks for sharing.



SuomiKp -> RE: Pictures of ww2 battlefields in Ukraine (3/29/2005 8:02:40 PM)

It had to take awhile to build the Serpent's wall back then without machinery ...



Procrustes -> RE: Pictures of ww2 battlefields in Ukraine (3/30/2005 12:01:29 AM)


Way cool - many thanks!



chief -> RE: Pictures of ww2 battlefields in Ukraine (3/30/2005 7:21:42 AM)

Thanks, you live in a beautiful country, it's a shame what wars and leaders can do to beauty.

Thank you for sharing.



freeboy -> RE: Pictures of ww2 battlefields in Ukraine (3/30/2005 10:53:02 PM)

Thank you for sharing, This is a very nice collection of article and pictures.. BRAVO



MadScot -> RE: Pictures of ww2 battlefields in Ukraine (3/31/2005 3:28:30 AM)

Very interesting, thank you.



HobbesACW -> RE: Pictures of ww2 battlefields in Ukraine (4/14/2005 12:06:53 AM)

Great photo's!
Thanks



Sarge -> RE: Pictures of ww2 battlefields in Ukraine (4/28/2005 7:02:26 AM)


That is crazy to walk around a battlefeild that was never cleared.

As cool as it seems , souvenir hunting old battlefeilds. I don't think its all that tasteful. That skull still wearing the helmet,that was someones loved one for God sakes. And to take a photo of such a waste and post on the internet[:@]


PS: wonder if the sick basterds took the helmet [:(]




Riun T -> RE: Pictures of ww2 battlefields in Ukraine (4/28/2005 7:50:18 AM)

Have to say I'm with ya on this one Sarge, I am all for things like diging up the UXO from a battlefield or picking up a bullet or button or capbadge/beltbuckle, BUT LEAVE THE RESPECTED WHERE THEY LIE if your not a professional and knowledgeable in exhumation leave it to the experts. get in touch with the local athorities tell them of your findings and the location. nothing else !! RT



rhondabrwn -> RE: Pictures of ww2 battlefields in Ukraine (4/28/2005 11:57:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge


That is crazy to walk around a battlefeild that was never cleared.

As cool as it seems , souvenir hunting old battlefeilds. I don't think its all that tasteful. That skull still wearing the helmet,that was someones loved one for God sakes. And to take a photo of such a waste and post on the internet[:@]


PS: wonder if the sick basterds took the helmet [:(]




With all due respect, I think you are over-reacting. I suspect that old body parts get dug up in those regions every time someone builds a house or a new roadway. Maybe they respectfully re-buried the bones and said a prayer over him... that would be a lot more than the poor guy got when he died!

I greatly appreciated the pictures on that website and that one picture of a jawbone didn't seem that offensive to me nor worthy of the epithet that you applied. Maybe if they were mass producing and selling necklaces made of human teeth or ashtrays made out of jawbones I would get outraged, but not for what they are doing. Is it a bit dangerous to be digging around old mines? Sure, but they seem to know what they are doing. Lots of people have dangerous hobbies.

Just my opinion, hon.



*Lava* -> RE: Pictures of ww2 battlefields in Ukraine (4/28/2005 12:57:51 PM)

Hi!


I thought it was a fasinating site.

Especially if you read the words that go with the pics.

As for the remains, it was pointed out that they bury any remains found, and from what I gathered, finding remains is not an unusual occurence.

Seems to me this guy lives in an area that saw the true effect of wars brutality. I am sure it changes one's perspectives on humanity (as the author mentioned).

Ray (alias Lava)



ShermanM4 -> RE: Pictures of ww2 battlefields in Ukraine (4/29/2005 3:20:53 AM)

Sarge how did you feel about the USS Monitor and the CSS Hunley? Was that terrible to dig those up? I thought it was an outstanding sight, and here is what she wrote for the Skull pic.

Soldiers there too, under leaves, bones, skulls, jaw-bones... teeth mostly good of young people. In Soviet army of those who were born in 1922 only 3 out of 100 came home from war, the rest 97 on those hills.

I dont think that they were "Sick Bastards" as you say.



Sarge -> RE: Pictures of ww2 battlefields in Ukraine (4/29/2005 3:37:04 AM)

@ rhondabrwn

I can't see how its over-reacting to see it as nothing more then GRAVE ROBBING !

Look I can see how in such a area remains can be dug up on a regular bases (Farming, building, what ever). But if you read ALL of their web site you would see what is really going on .
Did you read the first page about the ss ring and how if found it would finance a new motorcycle. Where do you think you find such a ring, just laying on the ground someplace. No you would dig up remains in hope of finding one. Take a realistic view of what their doing .How is it ok to dig up someone's remains but as long as their not making ashtrays out of remains its cool.


@ Lava

Im sure he will be think of the sacrifice and cost of humanity when he is cashing in on that ring.



Sarge -> RE: Pictures of ww2 battlefields in Ukraine (4/29/2005 3:44:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShermanM4

Sarge how did you feel about the USS Monitor and the CSS Hunley? Was that terrible to dig those up? I thought it was an outstanding sight, and here is what she wrote for the Skull pic.

Soldiers there too, under leaves, bones, skulls, jaw-bones... teeth mostly good of young people. In Soviet army of those who were born in 1922 only 3 out of 100 came home from war, the rest 97 on those hills.

I dont think that they were "Sick Bastards" as you say.



So as long as they state human cost its cool to grave rob.

EDIT: No I did not like when the Monitor and Hunley where raised,its a tomb . And lets be realistic do you think they are giving the remains the same respect



diesel7013 -> RE: Pictures of ww2 battlefields in Ukraine (4/29/2005 4:45:47 AM)

I'm a little bit surprised that anyone is "shocked" that people who dig for relics, ect... might encounter human remains. Of course you'll find human remains!
And then to say "they should contact experienced/qualified people to dig" - so having a degree makes it okay to dig up the dead?? But being an amature, like Darwin, Edison, ect... - they have no right to engage in scientific exploration???
Maybe some of these people profited from their searches - GOOD FOR THEM!!! If they want to go out there and search old battlefields and historical sites, and they find antiques, relics, or other items of interest - GOOD FOR THEM!!!

I'm sure that none of us would respect them if they just digged up bodies and then dumped the bones behind a tree - but as long as they bury any remains the find -then fine... Hell, people ( scientists w/ degrees ) dig up bodies all the time and take the bones to their office to look at some more - and if they find some nice rings and such - they get bigger grants from their universities, ect... WHATS THE DIFFERENCE!!!???

I've explored the SW and have found Native American sites, ect... I've encountered remains and have not disturbed them - but I'm sure if I found something phenomenal in them, I would and then put the remains back the way they were...

There is nothing immoral about scientific exploration performed in a moral fashion - either professional or amature - and nothing that that lady put on her site looked anything other than moral...

anyway - IMHO[;)]



Sarge -> RE: Pictures of ww2 battlefields in Ukraine (4/29/2005 5:39:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: diesel7013

I've explored the SW and have found Native American sites, ect... I've encountered remains and have not disturbed them - but I'm sure if I found something phenomenal in them, I would and then put the remains back the way they were...

anyway - IMHO[;)]




Hmmm

So if a American Indian was to start digging in your local grave yard , you are cool with that.

Becuase American Indians did not just leave the dead where they fell, they to had/have grave yards.





ShermanM4 -> RE: Pictures of ww2 battlefields in Ukraine (4/29/2005 7:03:02 PM)

@Sarge,
this is interresting. What is your definition of a grave or tomb? You used both words, and I do not understand what they mean to you. From my perspective, that photograph of the soldiers skull did not seem like it was in a grave. Those battlefields had never been cleared, so that soldier layed where he died 65 years ago. If anything, he was given a shallow grave with dirt heaped on top of him where he fell. It looked like wind and top soil run off unearthed him. What kind of grave is that?

I will concede that you make an excellent point with the SS ring. That seems pretty self interrested to unearth the dead looking for somehting so precious inorder to buy a bike. They are not archeologists or historians, so I have to concede that this purpose is purely their own. Still, do soldiers own any of the equipment on them? What is wrong with taking home bullets, spent shell casings, helmets, or medals?



diesel7013 -> RE: Pictures of ww2 battlefields in Ukraine (4/29/2005 9:17:47 PM)

quote:


Hmmm

So if a American Indian was to start digging in your local grave yard , you are cool with that.

Becuase American Indians did not just leave the dead where they fell, they to had/have grave yards.



I guess at some point - someone is going to have to come up with rules for scientific exploration... How many years old does a site have to be to be "legal" to dig?? Well - how many??
The Titanic site was less than 100 yrs old when it was investigated.
Any WWI or WWII site is less than 100 yrs old.
Civil War sites are still investigated all the time - they are less than 150 yrs old.

So - it's okay to dig the hell out of Egypt, the Middle East, Central and South America, and Indonesia because those civilizations are over a thousand years old... But NOT okay to dig up the battlefields of Russia because?? WHY??? Just because someone died there?? Hell, people die everywhere...

What are the rules??

Now - we have laws that you can't go into a registered grave site and dig around - cemetarys and such - but these also apply to any registered graves sites on reservations and such... but they have to be registered...

Now - if I buy some land in W. Texas or New Mexico or Arizona - or where ever, and find something on my land and want to investigate it - that's my perogative - just because someone finds it horrible to dig in sites is irrelavent...

Remember - lots of people thought it was heresy to think that the Earth was not the center of the universe - or that the earth wasn't flat - or anything else...

Again, what are the rules?? - we can't live life by anyone's arbitrary moral judgements...



Sarge -> RE: Pictures of ww2 battlefields in Ukraine (4/30/2005 2:24:05 AM)


Ok uncle [:)]



ShermanM4 -> RE: Pictures of ww2 battlefields in Ukraine (4/30/2005 2:29:49 AM)

quote:

So - it's okay to dig the hell out of Egypt, the Middle East, Central and South America, and Indonesia because those civilizations are over a thousand years old... But NOT okay to dig up the battlefields of Russia because?? WHY??? Just because someone died there?? Hell, people die everywhere...

What are the rules??


Well, I have to say this web site is not scientific or historic. The page with the SS ring and the bike in the lower corner does make it smack of self interest and as Sarge would define it "grave robbing."

Whereas, archeologists, anthropologists, and historians sometimes have altrueistic intentions of advancing science and historical knowlege.



String -> RE: Pictures of ww2 battlefields in Ukraine (4/30/2005 11:00:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ShermanM4

quote:

So - it's okay to dig the hell out of Egypt, the Middle East, Central and South America, and Indonesia because those civilizations are over a thousand years old... But NOT okay to dig up the battlefields of Russia because?? WHY??? Just because someone died there?? Hell, people die everywhere...

What are the rules??


Well, I have to say this web site is not scientific or historic. The page with the SS ring and the bike in the lower corner does make it smack of self interest and as Sarge would define it "grave robbing."

Whereas, archeologists, anthropologists, and historians sometimes have altrueistic intentions of advancing science and historical knowlege.


or maybe just out of the selfish interet of digging up interesting stuff? [:D]



freeboy -> RE: Pictures of ww2 battlefields in Ukraine (5/1/2005 1:10:00 AM)

This issue is a tough one for so many cultures, and that While I find no problem myself.. if a culture itself is offended then we are a whole new issue.. take the American tribes that may, or may not lay clain to the graves and ruins in the southwesst of the US.. Do we have a right to dig, to take to catologe and pjhotograph? I again think the answer is yes, and In the Ukrain I do not see this as much iof an issue.. but it is a sore point to many here in our nations west.. just a thought.. I am not a native Tribes person BTW..


the link is very cool btw. not sure how the naked girls made it in though!..



Marc von Martial -> RE: Pictures of ww2 battlefields in Ukraine (5/1/2005 5:39:59 AM)

Archaeology, be it a hobby or science, is and has always been "grave robbery" and on top of that is has / had allways disturbed the piece of burried people, from whatever culture.

Sadly this is juts the way it is and by "grave robbery" and disturbing graveyards a lot of very important discoveries have been made. Definetly. But no one on this planet, be he a scientist or a hobiest can say it was "okay" what he has done. I personally would not be okay with the fact the somebody in 200 years from know ouwld dig up my grave and display me in a museum. Think about it. Burial ceremonies are a part of human nature. And even if the burial ceremony is to let people rot where they died. There´s allways a reason behind it. IIRC there´s no culture that simply says "He´s dead, who cares"



Sarge -> RE: Pictures of ww2 battlefields in Ukraine (5/1/2005 9:56:21 AM)


Upon reading some of the replys,I think I have been misunderstood. I have no issue with exploring a battlefeild. On the contrary I am fascinated with the oportunity they have. And of course I along with everyone else would pick up the relics I happend to find, Can you imagine finding a mg42. All you have to do is go over to ebay and take a look, "Russin battlefield relic" search will most likely bring up a sizable amount of auctions.
But as I stated before, you can't tell me that the pepole on that site are not searching human remains looking for the big pay off, and take what ever they might find in the process.





Marc von Martial -> RE: Pictures of ww2 battlefields in Ukraine (5/4/2005 12:49:50 PM)

There´s only few groups of these so called battlefield archaeologiests that actually take the time to collect the human remains, if they find some, and give them a real grave that´s great. Those groups that actually do dig up fallen soldiers to finally give them a grave I pay my respect (I donate money yearly to a german institution). Those that only "rape" a battlefiled to grab medals and personal belongings from fallen soldiers simply to make a buck on Ebay (or wherelese) I pray they rot in hell.



RBWhite -> RE: Pictures of ww2 battlefields in Ukraine (5/4/2005 2:31:48 PM)

Marc & All Others

I totally agree with the point Sarge has made about grave robbing.

I don't recall seeing anything about the remains of the fallen German infantrymen being sent home for identifacation. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Marc: Could you check with the Institutions that you donate too in Germany too see if any remains have come back to Germany from that so called dig. Here in the States remains are always being searched for and retuned. POW/MIA. To the best of my knowledge it has all been an HONORABLE process to date.

So, I believe those pictured at that website above have long slow rot coming.

Now you all can know I can't stomach ebay. (It's a trash Dumpster, Skip what ever large trash receptacles are called in German) Ebay that is.

Rick White



Marc von Martial -> RE: Pictures of ww2 battlefields in Ukraine (5/4/2005 5:09:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RBWhite
Marc: Could you check with the Institutions that you donate too in Germany too see if any remains have come back to Germany from that so called dig. Here in the States remains are always being searched for and retuned. POW/MIA. To the best of my knowledge it has all been an HONORABLE process to date.



It´s looks like these guys here actually care : http://www.serpentswall.com/page5.html


Normally no reamins are ever sent back. If a soldier can be identified and is still on the POW/MIA list then his relatives will be notified of his dead. The bodies will then be buried at a local soldiers cemetary. Relatives get the grave number then. The "Volksbund Deutsche Kriegsgräberfürsorge" cares about building new soldier cemetaries and keep old ones in shape. As well as burials. Most of the members are volunteers and a lot of young people help there too. There´s actually exchnage programs for younger people. Together with young people from former "enemies" they spent parts of their vacations to keep cemetaries in shape.



RBWhite -> RE: Pictures of ww2 battlefields in Ukraine (5/4/2005 5:21:09 PM)

Marc:

Yes, I saw and read what you have shown. I don't question the Cemetaries and Monuments already built to Honor the fallen.

I also hope someday all the families will know the final resting places of those lost and missing.

But I do have some concerns about the motives of those shown riding around on their charming little motor bikes and doing fairy ring dances[;)].


Rick White



IronManBeta -> RE: Pictures of ww2 battlefields in Ukraine (5/6/2005 3:27:36 AM)

I was reading - I think in the Economist magazine - that a large number of dead are only now being found in what used to be East Berlin. The Soviets never cared about redevelopment or building and left whatever they found pretty much in place. Now that a great deal of new construction is going on they are finding unexploded ordnance (10,000 tons already!) that has to be taken care of and a large number of skeletons of soldiers and civilians from the war. I trust that they are providing a proper burial at last for those they find. I don't think a positive identification could be made in very many cases at this late stage but I'm sure they are trying anyway.

A lot of Canadian soldiers died in Holland and the Dutch have always made a special effort to tend the graves and keep the memory alive. The papers here are full of pictures and remembrances of what is going on there. It is very touching. Our prime minister is there too come to think of it. These things matter.

Rob



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