RE: Screens (Full Version)

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Pippin -> RE: Screens (4/20/2005 11:06:50 AM)

And don't forget the flawed morale. You did not dare want to even move a unit or make it change formation because of the morale and organization drop. Sometimes just ordering your men to dig in would turn them into a route and they'd run back to the supply train never to be seen again. ARgggh!

I so did hate it when you had a very large cavalry unit. Just having those horses get from point A to the battle resulted in so many missing units! Did the horses get lazy and defect too?








ericbabe -> RE: Screens (4/20/2005 9:25:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iņaki Harrizabalagatar
basically it was a dance of scouting units going forward and back, and artillery pounding any enemy unit spotted. I hope CoG has not that problem.
IMO the easiest and more historical FOW in a Napolenic tactic game should be coincident with LOS, with rear line units hiding behind front line units


COG's FOW penetration is simply the union of the LOS for each unit a player controls. LOS is independent of this, calculated for each unit individually. So a COG artillery can't hit a unit that it couldn't see -- i.e. you can't scout and tell them where to shoot.


Eric





Iņaki Harrizabalagatar -> RE: Screens (4/21/2005 12:36:35 AM)

Good, I am relief to read that [:)]



ericbabe -> RE: Screens (4/21/2005 6:56:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wayne19563
Can we see a few more screens of the 3D view ... ???
have combined strategic and tactical


Sorry I haven't got any new snaps up in the last few days: I've been working on finishing up the "low animation" mode and so the screens I've been testing aren't as interesting to look at and don't make for great snapshots. I'll try to get something more soon.


Eric



CushVA -> RE: Screens (5/1/2005 12:44:56 AM)

Any new screens to share?



ericbabe -> RE: Screens (5/1/2005 2:22:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cush

Any new screens to share?


Sorry about the delay. I'll get something up soon.


Eric



swatter555 -> RE: Screens (5/3/2005 1:43:40 AM)

I think everyone needs to relax just a bit. Even the most detailed game is nothing more than a crude abstraction of the real thing. If you want total realism, that is what the army is for. Having realistic flags and uniforms would be nice, but your not dealing with EA here. Not to mention the fact that there is only so much detail that can be jammed into a figure 40 or 50 pixels high. If a 100 person development team was working on this project, your uniform complaints would be justified. Yet I believe the team is less than 5. Im not talking 5 art people, Im talking 5 people total. This is a niche market to begin with, and people who demand precise Napoleanonic uniforms is a niche niche niche market. If West-Civ concentrated soley on pleasing people who demand incredible precision on trivial matters, such as uniforms, they would sell about 20 games and be out of business.



steveh11Matrix -> RE: Screens (5/3/2005 2:24:02 AM)

I only need to be able to tell mine from your'n. [:)]

Steve.



Le Tondu -> Uniforms?????? (5/3/2005 2:28:06 AM)

swatter555,

Um. As far as I can tell, no one has said anything about uniforms for at least two weeks. I believe the discussion has moved on to FOW.



pixelpusher -> RE: Uniforms?????? (5/5/2005 9:00:53 AM)

Just finished making the updated Austrian white uniforms. Made some of their pants sort of a - blue / gray. But it is very faint, almost white. (Some austrian uniforms were blue white coats w/ blue pants.) Thus some of the units will be all white, and some will be white w/ white-blue/gray pants.

Coats are very white. I'm somewhat concerned that they'll be legible on the detailed battle screen, but I suppose it will be OK since they will be the only units with this much brightness.

[image]local://upfiles/16293/DB33219D1EE34CA99C5551D3DA6B048F.jpg[/image]



pixelpusher -> RE: Uniforms?????? (5/5/2005 9:20:36 AM)

Here's another thing I've been working on as of late. This is a little preview of the four advisors that periodically pop up to tell you things, give you advice, warn you about things (etc. etc.) Each advisor has a range of around 12 emotions, depending on what kind of information they're giving you. What's shown here is just a little sampler.

Before anybody starts posting about the # of buttons on the military advisor's chest: Please be advised that they're all based on period of costume, and in most cases derived from a painting or etching dating to that era.

[image]local://upfiles/16293/D175BA97D076418DA36D2800584AB62C.jpg[/image]



2gaulle -> RE: Uniforms?????? (5/5/2005 2:01:20 PM)

quote:

Before anybody starts posting about the # of buttons on the military advisor's chest: Please be advised that they're all based on period of costume, and in most cases derived from a painting or etching dating to that era.


circulate there is nothing to watch!

I realy love the way of the discution here.

I love also to be able to see an Autrian Grognard.

By the way the Austrian didn't have: Guard, Lancers and horse Cavalry but I supose it's something without any interest




Le Tondu -> RE: Uniforms?????? (5/5/2005 5:49:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pixelpusher

Just finished making the updated Austrian white uniforms. Made some of their pants sort of a - blue / gray. But it is very faint, almost white. (Some austrian uniforms were blue white coats w/ blue pants.) Thus some of the units will be all white, and some will be white w/ white-blue/gray pants.

Coats are very white. I'm somewhat concerned that they'll be legible on the detailed battle screen, but I suppose it will be OK since they will be the only units with this much brightness.

[image]local://upfiles/16293/DB33219D1EE34CA99C5551D3DA6B048F.jpg[/image]



Ok, since you brought this up pixelpusher.

Disclaimer : I will use the NATO symbols exclusively and I again say that I bring up the following so you can be prepared when the hordes of Napoleonic enthusiasts come this way. I have nothing against the game designers and I TRULY wish them only the best, but I am forced to say that this is embarrassing.

White (in general) is better for the Austrian infantry. Thank you.

I am shocked at what I see. It leaves me wondering if this is really supposed to be a Napoleonic game. This is NOT a complaint about "too many buttons" or anything else that could be called inconsequential.

It is rather an educated observation about something glaringly obvious.

I am sorry, but not one uniform shown above even looks like it belongs to the Austrian Army of the Napoleonic Era. The closest is the Lancer. Some specifics are the red epaulettes and the red football shoulder pads that the kneeling infantryman and the artillerist at the bottom has. (The Austrian Army didn't have them at all.) If anyone disputes this, I would like to ask them to tell us all what Austrian regiment or branch of service these illustrations represent. (Please.) The figures are way, way too muscular and they look like they're wearing spandex.

I am certain that the artist has made many wonderful contributions and deserves great praise for all of them, but it really looks like he should go back to "the drawing board" and redo this aspect game. The cannons, muskets and horses look right.

There will be people who will come after me that will point these things out and they most likely will do it in a less respectful way. With so much attention to Napoleonic detail, they will wonder why this aspect of the game has gotten the short shrift. They will wonder if other aspects will get the same treatment and I fear that they probably not buy the game. You see, I want them all to buy it. I want this game to be VERY successful -period.


1. Will these images be moddable?

2. Will the NATO symbols be available at the Strategic Level?

If, the answer to either of these two questions is "yes," then please feel free to do nothing. If the answer is "no" to both, then I respectfully submit that there needs to be some more work done.

We can all agree that what is seen on the screen is very important. I understand how important it is to have the game released and not end up in endless modifications. I want it released too.

We've been waiting far too long for something like this game. Please take that extra step (wherever it needs to be) and cross into the end zone for the score. You're too close to stop now.




Le Tondu -> RE: Uniforms?????? (5/5/2005 6:07:01 PM)

Another option would be to have a generic Napoleonic figure that was all one color. Red for the English, Dark blue for the French, White for the Austrians, Grey for the Prussians, Green for the Russians, Ochre for the Spanish, etc....



sol_invictus -> RE: Uniforms?????? (5/5/2005 7:09:45 PM)

I'm all for accurate uniforms, but since these figures are only representative; unlike RTW where they would form an entire unit, I'm not to picky. I imagine that the artist is dealing with some graphical issues in trying to depict accurate models on such small figures. I also plan on using the NATO symbols btw. As long as we can figure out what we are looking at, the models are fine with me. I won't be comparing facing colors and length of plumes.



Le Tondu -> RE: Uniforms?????? (5/5/2005 8:55:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arinvald

.............. I won't be comparing facing colors and length of plumes.



What you said is fine with me and I realize that you are not just attacking me. [:)]

I am concerned with others who will (rest assured) bring up this same concern in not so friendly a manner.

By the way, this concern is about much, much more than facing colors, or the length of plumes, or the number of buttons, or the length of a musket -OR anything else that one could call inconsequential.

The NATO symbols are it for me too. I won't even look at these images if I can get away with it, but others will hack away at this.

Everything I am saying is offered as constructive criticism with only the greatest of respect for all involved.



sol_invictus -> RE: Uniforms?????? (5/5/2005 9:30:54 PM)

Tondu, you are certainly correct, I wasn't directing my comments at anyone in particular. I would absolutely love it if the uniforms were perfectly accurate and changed as time progressed to reflect the many alterations that occured over the 25 year period that the game covers; however, there must be a limit somewhere. As you stated, anyone who is a unifrom maniac; no offense meant as I like a nice unifrom; I am sure modders will supply some very detailed and accurate uniforms. I guess this whole issue just goes with the territory when dealing with the Napoleonic Era. Never have so many gone to their deaths in such spankingly stunning uniforms.[:)]



pixelpusher -> RE: Uniforms?????? (5/6/2005 12:07:28 AM)

quote:

There will be people who will come after me that will point these things out and they most likely will do it in a less respectful way.


Well, we try to listen as much as possible to the Napoleonics community and strive to make a game that is suitable for them. But we have to make some kind of balance between accuracy vs. playability vs. feasibility. Another consideration is the total memory consumption all those graphics take up.

quote:

1. Will these images be moddable?


There has been talk of making them accessible to the user, but I can't confirm that. But I suppose if you want to swap out your own graphics files you could. (IIRC there are around 45 files per country). The animations are hard-coded, though, so you'd be stuck with their locations and timing.

FWIW It's too late to change something as fundamental as this now, but for some future project (or maybe as part of a sequel) I have been trying to come up w/ a schema that would allow a much larger variety of uniforms and uniform colors. I'm not sure it would work, but the idea would be that you would sort of construct your unit out of parts, (head/coat/pants) each of which would be custom color replaced. Then napoleonic uniform buffs could customize their units as they like, and each little minor province could have distinct uniforms, or the uniforms could vary by unit. Again, I'm not sure it would work. Downside is significantly slower performance, upside is greater customization and lower memory requirement.


quote:

2. Will the NATO symbols be available at the Strategic Level?


I'm not sure. I know we've been adding some different display options lately.

quote:

Everything I am saying is offered as constructive criticism with only the greatest of respect for all involved.


Well, I appreciate the input. And I hear what you're saying. We are trying to be responsive to the community, and also produce a game. Unfortunately, sometimes those goals are contradictory.

quote:

I imagine that the artist is dealing with some graphical issues in trying to depict accurate models on such small figures.


Yes, that's a big problem, also. The player needs to be able to identify a light infantry unit as such, no matter who owns it. Therefore the types of units also need to be distinct enough from one another, and it is rather difficult on a tiny little bit of screen real estate we have.




Le Tondu -> RE: Uniforms?????? (5/6/2005 12:11:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arinvald

..............I am sure modders will supply some very detailed and accurate uniforms. I guess this whole issue just goes with the territory when dealing with the Napoleonic Era. Never have so many gone to their deaths in such spankingly stunning uniforms.[:)]


Arinvald,

Modding will be possible? Good news if it is true. Nothing needs to be done then. Excellent! [8D] [8D] [8D]

You raise an interesting point about uniforms though. Uniforms were VERY important back then.

Thanks.
[:)]




Le Tondu -> RE: Uniforms?????? (5/6/2005 12:15:59 AM)

pixelpusher,

Thanks for your replys. I will leave you alone now to do the important work. I appreciate your efforts.

(My fingers are crossed about the NATO symbols at the strategic level and the moddability question.)

God's Speed.
Rick
[:)]



donkuchi19 -> RE: Uniforms?????? (5/6/2005 3:01:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 2gaulle

quote:

Before anybody starts posting about the # of buttons on the military advisor's chest: Please be advised that they're all based on period of costume, and in most cases derived from a painting or etching dating to that era.


circulate there is nothing to watch!

I realy love the way of the discution here.

I love also to be able to see an Autrian Grognard.

By the way the Austrian didn't have: Guard, Lancers and horse Cavalry but I supose it's something without any interest




The Austrians did have Lancers. When they annexed Galicia, they created some Lancer units from the Poles living there. I actually have created a unit of them for my miniature Austrian Army.



donkuchi19 -> RE: Uniforms?????? (5/6/2005 3:09:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Le Tondu

quote:

ORIGINAL: pixelpusher

Just finished making the updated Austrian white uniforms. Made some of their pants sort of a - blue / gray. But it is very faint, almost white. (Some austrian uniforms were blue white coats w/ blue pants.) Thus some of the units will be all white, and some will be white w/ white-blue/gray pants.

Coats are very white. I'm somewhat concerned that they'll be legible on the detailed battle screen, but I suppose it will be OK since they will be the only units with this much brightness.

[image]local://upfiles/16293/DB33219D1EE34CA99C5551D3DA6B048F.jpg[/image]



Ok, since you brought this up pixelpusher.

Disclaimer : I will use the NATO symbols exclusively and I again say that I bring up the following so you can be prepared when the hordes of Napoleonic enthusiasts come this way. I have nothing against the game designers and I TRULY wish them only the best, but I am forced to say that this is embarrassing.

White (in general) is better for the Austrian infantry. Thank you.

I am shocked at what I see. It leaves me wondering if this is really supposed to be a Napoleonic game. This is NOT a complaint about "too many buttons" or anything else that could be called inconsequential.

It is rather an educated observation about something glaringly obvious.

I am sorry, but not one uniform shown above even looks like it belongs to the Austrian Army of the Napoleonic Era. The closest is the Lancer. Some specifics are the red epaulettes and the red football shoulder pads that the kneeling infantryman and the artillerist at the bottom has. (The Austrian Army didn't have them at all.) If anyone disputes this, I would like to ask them to tell us all what Austrian regiment or branch of service these illustrations represent. (Please.) The figures are way, way too muscular and they look like they're wearing spandex.

I am certain that the artist has made many wonderful contributions and deserves great praise for all of them, but it really looks like he should go back to "the drawing board" and redo this aspect game. The cannons, muskets and horses look right.

There will be people who will come after me that will point these things out and they most likely will do it in a less respectful way. With so much attention to Napoleonic detail, they will wonder why this aspect of the game has gotten the short shrift. They will wonder if other aspects will get the same treatment and I fear that they probably not buy the game. You see, I want them all to buy it. I want this game to be VERY successful -period.


1. Will these images be moddable?

2. Will the NATO symbols be available at the Strategic Level?

If, the answer to either of these two questions is "yes," then please feel free to do nothing. If the answer is "no" to both, then I respectfully submit that there needs to be some more work done.

We can all agree that what is seen on the screen is very important. I understand how important it is to have the game released and not end up in endless modifications. I want it released too.

We've been waiting far too long for something like this game. Please take that extra step (wherever it needs to be) and cross into the end zone for the score. You're too close to stop now.





I am not one to beat up developers on thier choices, but being one who loves using miniatures to recreate Napoleonic battles, uniforms are very important to me. I guess it comes down to your target audience. Die hard Napoleonics (like me) will likely be turned off by the uniform errors. Casual strategy gamers might not care. From following many of the boards on Matrix's site, I think you will find more Grognards than casual gamers. This may be a mistake to overlook these errors. I for one would look for Austrian gunners with their brown uniforms, Lancers with their green uniforms, Cuirassiers with their Black Curaiss on the front, Austrian Infantry in all white except for facings and such, Austrian officers with a gold or yellow sash, Hungarian Infantry with white tops and blue pants with yellow lace, infantry wearing either the helmet or the shako, and guards with their fur caps with the peaks. I was (and may still be) looking forward to this game but it might end up being a sticking point on whether I purchase it or not.

These are just my two cents and you can agree or not, but take them for what they are worth.

Thanks



sol_invictus -> RE: Uniforms?????? (5/6/2005 4:51:12 AM)

I think that all things being equal, we all would love historicly accurate uniforms. I am normally very picky about historical accuracy and certainly consider myself an old grognard; but the current models are very adequate for me. I always wanted to get into miniatures but it can be a hard hobby to break into, so I stuck with board and computer gaming. I'm guessing that most people who are uniform fanatics are indeed from the miniatures crowd. I am much more interested in the historical accuracy of the gameplay and the strength of the Diplomatic, Tactical, and Strategic AI. If these things aren't adequate, then we really needn't worry about uniforms. It seems that they are making mighty efforts to be as accurate as possible.



Le Tondu -> RE: Uniforms?????? (5/6/2005 5:49:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: donkuchi


.................................I was (and may still be) looking forward to this game but it might end up being a sticking point on whether I purchase it or not.

These are just my two cents and you can agree or not, but take them for what they are worth.

Thanks



Your uniform suggestions are right on target donkuchi. I truly wish that they would take similar standards to heart for all the Napoleonic armies involved.

There are other issues that "can" be chatted about. Like, I want to see the Bavarian flag for Bavaria and not some green version of the French flag. So-called "Minor Nations" deserve to have their flags showing too. It seems that there should be some give and take for the initial release, eh?

I too was very disappointed and felt that my ultimate decision to buy might match yours, until I heard that I might not have to look at them -at all. With moddability and/ or the use of NATO symbols as a possibility, it was easy for me to let it go.

From what I can see, they're using the same models for 3D and just changing the colors of the uniforms here and there so as to facilitate ease of programming and memory usage. Seemed like a defensible idea to me. I want this game now, even with imperfections --that could be fixed later on.

I've been Napoleonic gaming for 31+ years. Does that make me a Grognard too? [;)] I started with "Napoleon at Waterloo" when I started a subscription to "Strategy and Tactics" in 1974. Or was it 1973?.............
[:)]



pixelpusher -> RE: Uniforms?????? (5/6/2005 7:44:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Le Tondu

Like, I want to see the Bavarian flag for Bavaria and not some green version of the French flag. So-called "Minor Nations" deserve to have their flags showing too.


The non-nation provinces each have thier own flags. Bavaria in particular has a white-blue flag with a bavarian coat of arms. Several provinces which start out as part of a nation can break away and have their own flag. (eg Ireland, various parts of poland, etc.) There are also minor nations (poland) that have other special treatment in scenarios.

In addition, each province has armies represented by a corps flag, just like the large nations. So if Ireland rises up and raises a corps, it will be represented by an Irish corps flag. Again, I'm not 100% sure about this, but there was talk about making the flags mod-able.

If you like flags, CoG should not disappoint. There are many flags.









I too was very disappointed and felt that my ultimate decision to buy might match yours, until I heard that I might not have to look at them -at all. With moddability and/ or the use of NATO symbols as a possibility, it was easy for me to let it go.

From what I can see, they're using the same models for 3D and just changing the colors of the uniforms here and there so as to facilitate ease of programming and memory usage. Seemed like a defensible idea to me. I want this game now, even with imperfections --that could be fixed later on.

I've been Napoleonic gaming for 31+ years. Does that make me a Grognard too? [;)] I started with "Napoleon at Waterloo" when I started a subscription to "Strategy and Tactics" in 1974. Or was it 1973?.............
[:)]




Le Tondu -> RE: Uniforms?????? (5/6/2005 4:35:26 PM)

I noticed during the chat last night with ericbabe that at the strategic level, there won't be NATO symbols. [:(] [:(]

I am still praying for divine intervention regarding the moddability issue.



sol_invictus -> RE: Uniforms?????? (5/6/2005 6:20:29 PM)

Damn, I forgot about the chat. DOH!



Le Tondu -> RE: Uniforms?????? (5/6/2005 7:48:01 PM)

Believe it or not Arinvald, I looked for you. I figured that you must've been busy.

(Actually, I could only stay for a few minutes.)



steveh11Matrix -> RE: Uniforms?????? (5/6/2005 8:29:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Le Tondu

I noticed during the chat last night with ericbabe that at the strategic level, there won't be NATO symbols. [:(] [:(]
Really? How sad...and odd. I don't really understand that one, but will reserve judgement pending further news.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Le Tondu

I am still praying for divine intervention regarding the moddability issue.

Hmmm, yes, although the graphical side of modding is not for me. IIRC the non-graphical stuff is in text files, therefore moddable, but not 'friendly'.

Steve.



sol_invictus -> RE: Uniforms?????? (5/6/2005 9:02:07 PM)

Le Tondu, I downloaded TS: Caesar yesterday and I was getting aquainted with the game and forgot all about the chat. I guess no NATO symbols on the strategic map won't be to bad.



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