RE: This is a "board" game? (Full Version)

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Erik Rutins -> RE: This is a "board" game? (4/21/2005 4:04:30 PM)

Mark,

There are still plenty of RTS click-fest, but it's true that much of the RTS genre has evolved and included Real-Time concepts without a lack of strategy. The derisive "click-fest" term is not just a reference to the contest of interface needs vs. running clock, but to the lack of strategy (he who clicks fastest, produces more units and wins, whee). The problem is that while other genres (Role-playing, Adventure, First Person) have always been well suited to a real-time design, strategists often prefer having plenty of time to think things over and get a lot of enjoyment from the analysis of options that the turn-based model allows. I agree that there are a bunch of titles that have expanded the RTS genre in good directions, but it still has many problems for many wargamers.

I'll comment on two of your examples specifically:

Dawn of War, for me, was a great title because of it's focus on objectives rather than resource gathering. Felt like an actual 40k game and more importantly a game that required some tactics and strategy.

Shogun and Rome Total War though are interesting to mention here. They are actually turn-based games with a real-time battle engine. I don't think they would do as well if the strategic side were real-time as well. Then again, Hearts of Iron is doing well enough, so perhaps I'm wrong on that.

Regards,

- Erik



wodin -> RE: This is a "board" game? (4/25/2005 2:21:16 AM)

"Blitzkreig, Dawn of War, Ground Control, Ground Control II, Desperadoes, Shogun Total War, Rome Total War, MechCommander, MechCommander II, Green Berets, Cossacks, Cossacks II, Antietem, Gettysburg..."

Mark 6 of those games I'd say were click fest and Ive played them.

As for the other games youve mentioned like BiA it sjust a bod satndard FPS game when you get down to it. Ghost Recon tried something new however the only FPS worth mentioning is Operation Flashpoint.







Zap -> RE: This is a "board" game? (4/25/2005 6:12:35 AM)

I don't think Mark has grasped what we are speaking about. Maybe he should read the thread "Am I livin in a dream world?" in the general discussion section.



markhwalker -> RE: This is a "board" game? (4/25/2005 3:04:31 PM)

Yeah, Zap, don't know what you mean. Glanced through "Dream World," and it looked like a bunch of people pining away for old Panzer Battles games (or something). What did I miss.

Wodin... I see our disconnect now. It's in the definition. To me Command and Conquer, the Warcraft series, Total Annihilation, Age of Empires series (including Mythology) are clickfests --no tactics, just econimic strategy. In stuff like Dawn of War... serious tactics matter. Would a turnbased version be better (like Final Libs)? Sure, but is there MUCH to be learned from folks like Relic Enbtertainment? Daggone right. In turn, did they borrow from TB games? Sure. The point is that the bad TB games usually come from design groups that are locked into one way of thinking.

Best,
Mark



wodin -> RE: This is a "board" game? (4/25/2005 3:24:05 PM)

I played the demo of Dawn of War and thought it was good by most standards. I actually enjoyed it. However whether I'd enjoy it when thing sbecome to hectic is another matter. I just dont like those collect resource (what ever way they impliment it) and upgrade. Once the game really kicks of I just get swamped with to much micromanagment. I did enjoy it though.

Blitz, AoE, C&C, Warcraft, Sudden Strike, TA, D day,Codename Panzer and all the recent RTS games are just chaotic clickfests to me.

Ive just started play Close Combat V with the GJS mod and I must say it still outshines anything else and when you consider how old the original engine is its quite amazing.



Zap -> RE: This is a "board" game? (4/26/2005 6:24:47 AM)

quote:

and it looked like a bunch of people pining away for old Panzer Battles games (or something). What did I miss


The point of this thread was to speak about your game being a boardgame as opposed to having a computer version. Too often in the past (at least before Matrix and a handful of others) many of the large producers of wargames went to RTS. This became a source of frustration for former war boardgamers who converted to computer play. There just were not enough quality strategy war games( which allow time for planning/give full control) produced. What you heard from us is a desire to see a tried and true game system "Lock and Load" put to the computer.

In the "Dream World" what your seeing is maybe a little dissapointment/nostalgia expressed in the post you read. Too many bought too many games (some in your list above) that failed to be be anything they were looking for. So now those games sit in the none play pile. Blitzkrieg is one example from your list.
I bought it played a few times and now its a no play unless I don't want to think and just click.
There was nothing to look forward too.

The point I wanted to make is some of us want strategic war games that will meet the standard of games we have known. Games systems that worked giving us many hours of challenge and enjoyment. And it seemed you did'nt (with your list) understand where we were coming from. My idea of strategy and yours seem to be different.

Recent history is very different I know, with all the recent game additions (Matrix).
But I watch sceptically/hoping and many times generalize too much. Criteria for a quality game becomes difficult to determine when you have 100s, each, with his/her personal preferences. But there are some games that shine above the rest.

Maybe what I'm saying doesn't make a good or clear point. And I may not see the big picture but I know what I like to play. Hey, but I do learn a lot in these forums and have been know to change an opinion or two.







markhwalker -> RE: This is a "board" game? (4/26/2005 8:29:27 PM)

quote:

Maybe what I'm saying doesn't make a good or clear point. And I may not see the big picture but I know what I like to play. Hey, but I do learn a lot in these forums and have been know to change an opinion or two.


Actually, I think you write very well. I do see what you are saying. I think you'll be happy with what you see with LnL.

Best,
Mark



FlyingElvis -> RE: This is a "board" game? (5/26/2005 7:23:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: markhwalker

I host everything from Formula One to Viginia Tech football forums on the LnL site. You guys want to talk? Talk. Let's have fun.

Best,
Mark
Hey Mark. Big BC fan here! Looking forward to renewing the rivalry with VT. I seem to remember us winning the last one. [:D]

Anyway, I found this thread because I am a recently interested gamer in your series. Good luck with Band of Broth.. err Band of Heroes. [;)]



Draken35 -> RE: This is a "board" game? (5/27/2005 8:54:04 AM)

Hi Mark,

I must say that I'm impatient to see BoH released...



markhwalker -> RE: This is a "board" game? (5/27/2005 11:15:52 AM)

As for BC... yeah, that was such a dismal season. There Tech was, third in the nation, just coming of that great victory over Miami, and what did they do? Lose four of their last five or something like that? Too many prima donnas. Last year was much better. The Tech-BC rivalryis a good one, although we are losing one of the best rivalries.... this is the last year we play West Virginia.

The game will be out soon, guys... very soon. I believe you'll be able to pre-order sometime next week (that isn't an offivcial announcement, just my best guess). We are striving to have the game ready for Origins, it is coming down to the wire.

Best,
Mark



rickbill -> RE: This is a "board" game? (6/10/2005 4:25:27 AM)

Mark,

Are you going to ConQuest SF over Labor Day?

I think LnL:BOH deserves a solid kickoff for us west coast gamers as well!

Thanks, Rick



markhwalker -> RE: This is a "board" game? (6/10/2005 12:46:38 PM)

No Rick, sorry. I'm on the East Coast, and I just don't think I'll have time this year.

Best,
Mark



Hanal -> RE: This is a "board" game? (6/15/2005 5:17:58 AM)

Back in the day, when solitaire play became more prominent in the boardgame industry, they used to rate the solitaire capabilities of a game. For example, Ambush was obviously a 10, Advance Squad Leader was around a 3, and Third Reich was approximately a 7. Where would you rate this game for solitaire play?



Sarge -> RE: This is a "board" game? (6/15/2005 6:18:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: J P Falcon

Back in the day, when solitaire play became more prominent in the boardgame industry, they used to rate the solitaire capabilities of a game. For example, Ambush was obviously a 10, Advance Squad Leader was around a 3, and Third Reich was approximately a 7. Where would you rate this game for solitaire play?



The back of the box stated 8

[image]local://upfiles/8678/F05EB2A33976482D91DCF3C7B2227D7D.jpg[/image]



Hanal -> RE: This is a "board" game? (6/15/2005 6:40:26 AM)

Thanks Sarge.....I have not bought a board game in decades....might change that though.....



Sarge -> RE: This is a "board" game? (6/15/2005 7:24:50 AM)

To tell you the truth I was on the fence for a time also. But that being said, I think it will be a refreshing change of pace.

Plus it supports VASSAL [&o]



markhwalker -> RE: This is a "board" game? (6/15/2005 2:00:13 PM)

Thanks from me as well, Sarge.

A word on solitaire... I HATE non-solitaire friendly games. Okay, that was actuallyuy a sentence. I do, however, feel very strongly about this. You will never find a LnL scenario that uses "hidden" units or any other lame design mechanism to create so-called realism. Furthermore, LnL's impulse system really makes it easy to play both sides, and play them at a pace that draws you into the battle.

BTW, Marc Swanebeck did te back of te box. Good job, no?

Best,

Mark



Marc von Martial -> RE: This is a "board" game? (6/15/2005 8:03:11 PM)

quote:

TW, Marc Swanebeck did te back of te box. Good job, no?


Did the front and spines too [:D][;)]



Sarge -> RE: This is a "board" game? (6/16/2005 3:56:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: markhwalker

BTW, Marc Swanebeck did te back of te box. Good job, no?

Best,

Mark


All B.S. aside,

Box ,Counters, Maps all some of the best art work I have seen from a board game.



markhwalker -> RE: This is a "board" game? (6/16/2005 4:12:21 PM)

Thanks. Marc, Bill Ash, and I did the maps... although my contribution was limited to drawing the original roughs in colored pencil.

Nicolas Eskubi did the counters.

Best,
Mark



Marc von Martial -> RE: This is a "board" game? (6/16/2005 6:07:26 PM)

Le´s not forget Louis Jones, who did most of the houses.



markhwalker -> RE: This is a "board" game? (6/17/2005 4:48:21 PM)

Yes, Louis! The buildings are awesome... the best I've ever seen. Good job, my man.

Best,
Mark



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