A "No-Whiners" challange for v1.50 (Full Version)

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ADavidB -> A "No-Whiners" challange for v1.50 (4/24/2005 6:02:01 AM)

I'm going to be away on a much-needed vacation for the first couple of weeks of May. I'm hoping that v1.50 will be out by the time I get back. I want to try to upgrade my current game against PzB, but I also want to start two other campaign games as the Allies under the new version:

1 - A historic start where we let the AI run December 7 for us and see how well the game plays afterwards. This will be run under the "usual" conditions: sub doctrines off for both sides (and the AI sub control off right from the beginning), Allied "repair" doctrine on, one day turns, fixed reinforcements and so on. We'll make it as "vanilla ice cream" as possible. Let's see how well the Game behaves "as designed" under v1.50.

2 - A No-Whiners non-historic start where we both do whatever we want to do with no constraints on either side. We will use all of the conditions I've listed above with the following three additional "understandings":

2.1 - Both sides can send any and all forces ANYWHERE they want on the first turn and afterwards. So, for example, if I pull everything that will move out of Pearl or Manila or Singapore - that's the way it goes. If you want to pull everyone out of Manchuria and the coast of China, feel free.

2.2 - Both sides can attack ANYWHERE during the game at any time. So, for example, if you want to bomb every port in the Pacific on the first turn, feel free.

2.3 - Neither side will whine about buggy play, "unhistorical" play, bad game design, or even so-called "catastrophic" bugs. So if your Zekes don't show up, tough luck - it's only a game. The point is to see how wild we can go with this game.

So, for example, if you want to invade Russia, China, and India simultaneously on the first turn; go ahead. Using the hex edges to trap opposing forces is fine. Go all-out to capture the Allied reinforcement entry hexes.

Also, for example, if you fail to protect your Manchurian bases, I capture them and they become Soviet bases - "tough titty" (to use a War Time term). We won't consider that a "Bug", we'll consider that an "undocumented design feature".

Also, for example, if either of us wants to put 25 DDs in an ASW TF - cool - make as many of them as you please.

Likewise, if I want to put a 1000 bombers at 100 feet and pound your bases into dust - "them's the breaks".

My point here is to test the new version past the breaking point. Anything and everything goes.

Anyone here want to try this come May 18th or so?

Thanks -

Dave Baranyi



rogueusmc -> RE: A "No-Whiners" challange for v1.50 (4/24/2005 6:25:45 AM)

What a breath of fresh air!!!



Tom Hunter -> RE: A "No-Whiners" challange for v1.50 (4/24/2005 4:46:25 PM)

But I want to be able to blame the game for my screwups!



[image]local://upfiles/14870/B1E80796B8FC4328BA610B005A3EA182.jpg[/image]

And complain about the lack of historical accuracy if something bad happens to me.

Those are both ways I compesate for manifest lack of ability. If I blamed me it would damage my self esteem.[;)]



Drex -> RE: A "No-Whiners" challange for v1.50 (4/24/2005 6:42:08 PM)

It would take an exceptional individual to play a whole game without whining at least once.



Sonny -> RE: A "No-Whiners" challange for v1.50 (4/25/2005 3:56:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter

But I want to be able to blame the game for my screwups!



[image]local://upfiles/14870/B1E80796B8FC4328BA610B005A3EA182.jpg[/image]

And complain about the lack of historical accuracy if something bad happens to me.

Those are both ways I compesate for manifest lack of ability. If I blamed me it would damage my self esteem.[;)]



Me too!



Sonny -> RE: A "No-Whiners" challange for v1.50 (4/25/2005 3:56:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Drex

It would take an exceptional individual to play a whole game without whining at least once.


I have trouble playing a whole TURN without complaining.[X(]



freeboy -> RE: A "No-Whiners" challange for v1.50 (4/25/2005 4:21:49 PM)

random a bombs in 43, me 262's for JApan.. ok.. no whinning



forranger -> RE: A "No-Whiners" challange for v1.50 (4/25/2005 4:51:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ADavidB

.....

2.1 - Both sides can send any and all forces ANYWHERE they want on the first turn and afterwards. So, for example, if I pull everything that will move out of Pearl or Manila or Singapore - that's the way it goes. If you want to pull everyone out of Manchuria and the coast of China, feel free.

.....





I wonder what kind of jap player will agree to this. Heroic? Challenge seeking? Utter stupid? Center piece of the jap war plans was getting surprise at Pearl and destroying as much allied war assets in PI and SE Asia as possible. As I see it handing away surprise for nothing can't be a brilliant move by any jap player.

I bet you wouldn't play such a scenario as jap, right? If you do I'll be happy to play the allied part........




Tom Hunter -> RE: A "No-Whiners" challange for v1.50 (4/25/2005 5:29:27 PM)

I don't see 2.1 as a problem since PP restrictions are what holds the Allied troops in place, not some gentleman's agreement. If anything this may give Japan a small advantage for example they can invade Johore Baru turn 1 under this rule.



Cap Mandrake -> RE: A "No-Whiners" challange for v1.50 (4/25/2005 5:45:04 PM)

Bah...WITP has a fidelity that is unmatched. I was trying out this new game in Las Vegas...its called Blackjack or something like that (usually abbreviated BJ). Anyway..the idea is to get a higher point total than your opponent without going over 21. The game is waaay buggy. Every Blackjack playing center has it's own house rules. [sm=terms.gif] And get this...they usually aren't written down [:-]..you have to ask. Worse..if you get up and move to a new table there may be a whole new OOB with different house rules.[:@] It gets worse. To distract you, the AI sends out good-looking fem-bots with push up bras and free alcohol. They pretend to like you. I tell you..its diabolical.

Here is an actual combat replay:


Cap wagers 500 "chips" (I later learned a special house rule dictates this was real money[X(])


Cap draws:

K and Q

Dealer shows a 6 (this is a pat 20 vs s dealer 6..a great hand...kinda like the KB catching the Enterprise by itself with nothing but Buffaloes to protect itself)

Cap says "hold" (a sound choice)

Dealer exposes a second 6 (Looking good)

Dealer draws a 2 (looking better)

Dealer draws an Ace (now even better..total is 15)

Dealer draws another Ace (Yeah baby..16)

Dealer draws a 5..21..dealer wins! [:@][:@] (A lone Wirraway takes down the Yamato!!)

Well, naturally, I asked for a redo. I demanded it! They sent a big guy with a radio thingy in his ear to show me the exit. I think I will wait for the next patch.






forranger -> RE: A "No-Whiners" challange for v1.50 (4/25/2005 6:27:30 PM)

It's not troop movements I wanted to point out but ships and planes taken out of reach of the initial jap strikes. If the allies don't get hurt on day 1 their comeback will be sooner and easier.



kaiser73 -> RE: A "No-Whiners" challange for v1.50 (4/25/2005 7:55:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: forranger


quote:

ORIGINAL: ADavidB

.....

2.1 - Both sides can send any and all forces ANYWHERE they want on the first turn and afterwards. So, for example, if I pull everything that will move out of Pearl or Manila or Singapore - that's the way it goes. If you want to pull everyone out of Manchuria and the coast of China, feel free.

.....





I wonder what kind of jap player will agree to this. Heroic? Challenge seeking? Utter stupid? Center piece of the jap war plans was getting surprise at Pearl and destroying as much allied war assets in PI and SE Asia as possible. As I see it handing away surprise for nothing can't be a brilliant move by any jap player.

I bet you wouldn't play such a scenario as jap, right? If you do I'll be happy to play the allied part........




yup. The funny things about these proposals is that the ones proposing those will play just 1 side (allies...) [;)]




forranger -> RE: A "No-Whiners" challange for v1.50 (4/25/2005 8:06:16 PM)


It kind of bothers me to see one-sided proposals like this because folks with little experience with WitP or wargaming in general might fall for them, invest lots of time and realize way too late the odds were against them right from the scenario start. It would be something completely different if a veteran agreed to play like that, seeking the challenge.



Cap Mandrake -> RE: A "No-Whiners" challange for v1.50 (4/25/2005 11:17:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter

I don't see 2.1 as a problem since PP restrictions are what holds the Allied troops in place, not some gentleman's agreement. If anything this may give Japan a small advantage for example they can invade Johore Baru turn 1 under this rule.


I agree, for the Allies this might give some flexibility in Centpac and the South Pac, but they still cant ship the Aussie Divisions willy-nilly and they cant send the West Coast US divisions without PP's being spent. Same thing on ABDA..they arent going anywhere.

On the other hand, the Japanese player could easily take troops from the Malasia campaign and throw them into Burma or India or Australia (no guarantees of success[;)])



Mr.Frag -> RE: A "No-Whiners" challange for v1.50 (4/25/2005 11:19:26 PM)

quote:

invade Johore Baru turn 1 under this rule.


Them torpedo bombers are a bit too painful for that stunt. Tried many times, including donating some CV's to the cause, it's just not worth the cost vs coming down from further north where they only drop bombs.



mogami -> RE: A "No-Whiners" challange for v1.50 (4/26/2005 12:02:28 AM)

Hi, I have a challenge out that has several takers. It's a no whiner but the Japanese are the only ones with a free ticket on turn 1. The Allies only get to give orders in China on turn 1.



freeboy -> RE: A "No-Whiners" challange for v1.50 (4/26/2005 1:01:08 AM)

Funny, sounded to mye like you where chicken! balk balk hehe[:D]



kaiser73 -> RE: A "No-Whiners" challange for v1.50 (4/26/2005 1:06:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter

I don't see 2.1 as a problem since PP restrictions are what holds the Allied troops in place, not some gentleman's agreement. If anything this may give Japan a small advantage for example they can invade Johore Baru turn 1 under this rule.


I agree, for the Allies this might give some flexibility in Centpac and the South Pac, but they still cant ship the Aussie Divisions willy-nilly and they cant send the West Coast US divisions without PP's being spent. Same thing on ABDA..they arent going anywhere.

On the other hand, the Japanese player could easily take troops from the Malasia campaign and throw them into Burma or India or Australia (no guarantees of success[;)])



Allies can save all their shipping on PH.
They can use mass night bombing.
They can set up to make first turn invasions deadly and to save all their airpower from 1st turn.

What advantage Japan can have? landing on kendari on turn 2 ? this is not enough for having 6 BB ready and all airpower ready for the 8th of december.



mc3744 -> RE: A "No-Whiners" challange for v1.50 (4/26/2005 1:36:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: forranger


quote:

ORIGINAL: ADavidB

.....

2.1 - Both sides can send any and all forces ANYWHERE they want on the first turn and afterwards. So, for example, if I pull everything that will move out of Pearl or Manila or Singapore - that's the way it goes. If you want to pull everyone out of Manchuria and the coast of China, feel free.

.....





I wonder what kind of jap player will agree to this. Heroic? Challenge seeking? Utter stupid? Center piece of the jap war plans was getting surprise at Pearl and destroying as much allied war assets in PI and SE Asia as possible. As I see it handing away surprise for nothing can't be a brilliant move by any jap player.

I bet you wouldn't play such a scenario as jap, right? If you do I'll be happy to play the allied part........




I really have to disagree with this.
I had the best results as Jap when the Allies where able to move. And the worst when I (as Allies) I could move out of PH (4 BBs sunk plus several other ships).
Ships are easier to sink at sea.
If the KB sets his order as naval attack primary and port attack secondary. You (Jap) are going to get your PH attack anyway, plus you get to easily sink whatever as gone out to the sea.
And the Japs can take their time with the vessels out at sea to come back later for PH. No hurry there.

The only real advantage for the Allies is the reduce aircraft loss. But it doesn't matter IMHO that much, considering that are mainly old planse (P-26, P-35, Bolo's). And the Allies really have plenty of planes.

As Jap I'll always allow a free first turn (I think [;)])



ADavidB -> RE: A "No-Whiners" challange for v1.50 (4/26/2005 2:14:15 AM)

quote:

They can use mass night bombing.


Both sides can do this. Have you seen what PzB can do with 100+ Sallys in a day attack? Imagine them in a night attack.

Cheers -

Dave Baranyi



Mynok -> RE: A "No-Whiners" challange for v1.50 (4/26/2005 5:30:33 AM)


quote:

I wonder what kind of jap player will agree to this. Heroic? Challenge seeking? Utter stupid? Center piece of the jap war plans was getting surprise at Pearl and destroying as much allied war assets in PI and SE Asia as possible. As I see it handing away surprise for nothing can't be a brilliant move by any jap player.


I'll second mc3744. I sunk nearly every capital ship that began at Pearl because my opponent ran. Plus, few planes can transfer out of Pearl due to range, so I got a big whack on those too.

Please run. Please. I lost more Kates than in a normal Pearl attack, but Ironbottom sound was a good bit further northeast than historically, too.

[:D]



forranger -> RE: A "No-Whiners" challange for v1.50 (4/26/2005 9:00:50 AM)


I'm your allied player then after 1.5 is out. I seriously doubt you'd sink more of my BB's and sack more of my planes from PH than in a surprise setup. Plus: You'd probably live to regret that you can only destroy a fraction of planes on the ground, especially those on PI and in Malaya. Think of all these P40B's that can be saved for use by AVG, B17 squadrons which will be ready for action way sooner and the allied search capability which will be operational right from the start. I guess this will hurt japs more in the early phase, and I guess there's not enough to compensate for that.

By the way I'm not biased toward playing Allies, most of my pbem time was as jap. There's only one way to convince me that giving up jap surprise is a smart move: Send me your first turn..........



Tom Hunter -> RE: A "No-Whiners" challange for v1.50 (4/26/2005 2:33:09 PM)

Forranger is operating from a point of view that seems pretty common among people posting to this board, and one that I used to beleive when I started my first game, but don't believe any more.

In summary that point of view says that a single turn's events can be very important for the game. In one respect that is true, the turn you CVs or BBs sink, or the turn Singapore falls (to either side) is important. But I will argue that the dramatic turn is actually the product of planning over many turns. Good planning over time is what sinks the CVs or makes the objective fall. If you have good long term planning you will take the objective or sink the ships, the actual day that occurs is pretty much incidental.

Suprise on December 7th or no the Japanese player is getting the results of previous preperation by the historical Japanese military. After that its up to him, no amount of success or level of failure is on December 7th is going to change that.



kaiser73 -> RE: A "No-Whiners" challange for v1.50 (4/26/2005 3:14:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter

Forranger is operating from a point of view that seems pretty common among people posting to this board, and one that I used to beleive when I started my first game, but don't believe any more.

In summary that point of view says that a single turn's events can be very important for the game. In one respect that is true, the turn you CVs or BBs sink, or the turn Singapore falls (to either side) is important. But I will argue that the dramatic turn is actually the product of planning over many turns. Good planning over time is what sinks the CVs or makes the objective fall. If you have good long term planning you will take the objective or sink the ships, the actual day that occurs is pretty much incidental.

Suprise on December 7th or no the Japanese player is getting the results of previous preperation by the historical Japanese military. After that its up to him, no amount of success or level of failure is on December 7th is going to change that.


The point is that the no whiners challenge actually represents a big advantage for Allies in the setup. that's what i post about. then there is no doubt with good planning you can achieve the same results. but let's say the odds are even more for Allies than in a house ruled PBEM.

It makes a difference for allies to have all their BB safe on 8th. a smart player will create single different BB TF and will send them out in different directions meaning you will be lucky to get in range of just 1.
As it makes a difference to save all their airpower in PI and Malaya on turn 1. it means japan will lose lot of shipping and aircrafts.

sure Japan can get SRA anyway. but with much more losses. and while Allies just need to not lose CV, Japan is hurt by any loss.



forranger -> RE: A "No-Whiners" challange for v1.50 (4/26/2005 4:57:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter

Forranger is operating from a point of view that seems pretty common among people posting to this board, and one that I used to beleive when I started my first game, but don't believe any more.

In summary that point of view says that a single turn's events can be very important for the game. In one respect that is true, the turn you CVs or BBs sink, or the turn Singapore falls (to either side) is important. But I will argue that the dramatic turn is actually the product of planning over many turns. Good planning over time is what sinks the CVs or makes the objective fall. If you have good long term planning you will take the objective or sink the ships, the actual day that occurs is pretty much incidental.

Suprise on December 7th or no the Japanese player is getting the results of previous preperation by the historical Japanese military. After that its up to him, no amount of success or level of failure is on December 7th is going to change that.


Tom, I agree to your point that good planning is needed throughout the game, especially for jap players. But you fail to see the point I tried to make here: Perfect planning later won't compensate for giving away the element of surprise that was crucial for Japan's entry into the war (crippling US navy and allied air assets was the center piece of the initial japanese strategy). If you're convinced that beginning a scenario with allies on full alert is no big deal for the jap player then I'll be happy to take you on. You jap, me allies, after patch 1.5.

In general: Folks who are not willing to play such a scenario as japs should better stop defending such an unbalanced game setup.








WiTP_Dude -> RE: A "No-Whiners" challange for v1.50 (5/23/2005 9:39:09 AM)

Wrong button. PM.



Iridium -> RE: A "No-Whiners" challange for v1.50 (5/23/2005 6:53:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: forranger

Tom, I agree to your point that good planning is needed throughout the game, especially for jap players. But you fail to see the point I tried to make here: Perfect planning later won't compensate for giving away the element of surprise that was crucial for Japan's entry into the war (crippling US navy and allied air assets was the center piece of the initial japanese strategy). If you're convinced that beginning a scenario with allies on full alert is no big deal for the jap player then I'll be happy to take you on. You jap, me allies, after patch 1.5.

In general: Folks who are not willing to play such a scenario as japs should better stop defending such an unbalanced game setup.


I just don't believe that in '41, even if alerted, the US would fair all too well against Japan. The BB's were old, your CV's are dispersed and too few, and the schwerepunkt is at PH on turn 1. It's a simple case of overwhelming strength concentrated at one point. Even if you had both CV's around PH, I doubt much good would come of it. I doubt what the US could do unprepared for war.



denisonh -> RE: A "No-Whiners" challange for v1.50 (5/23/2005 7:16:33 PM)

Here is an idea for a "non-historical" scenario:

It would be nice to simulate the Japanese uncertainty of the locations and strengths of the enemy, a factor that caused them to be much more conservative than their WitP counterparts who have 100% exact intelligence on the enemy locations, strengths and capabilities (can't do much about that one).

So have the Allied player outline his own defense of Malaya, DEI, Indo-Burma and Phillipines and have a third party "redeploy" the allied forces to support the Allied players "own" defense plan (not abandonment plan). The idea is that the players would play a scenario modded by a third party to reflect the Allies having thier chance at changing the plan without mitigating the Japanese surprise.




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