A request on behalf of new Japanses Players (Full Version)

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poerr -> A request on behalf of new Japanses Players (5/5/2005 3:37:00 AM)

Hello,

I do not post often but I have been following these boards for sometime. I am one of those folks who plays the AI (due to time constraints and not wanting to drag out a PBEM game rudely with another person - not much freetime with work) almost exclusively as the Allies. I am now going to try my hand with the Japanese side against the allied AI. I have spent a bunch of time reading the vetrans like Mogami on these boards in order to try to nail down an understanding of the complexities of the Japanese war machine, rotating pilots, and industry. I know that the AI is pretty basic, but it works for me and isn't keeping anyone waiting.

My request is this - would some of the vets of the Japanese side consider posting a turn one savegame with the basic opening moves and industry adjustments? Nothing to give away your secrets, but something the newbies to the Japanese side could study and perhaps experiment with. [&o]

You may now return to regular broadcasting and discussion.....

Many thanks!

Russ




poerr -> RE: A request on behalf of new Japanses Players (5/5/2005 3:47:03 PM)

Nevermind. Probably not a good suggestion.




tsimmonds -> RE: A request on behalf of new Japanses Players (5/5/2005 4:06:16 PM)

Nothing wrong with the idea; I'd have been glad to do that, but you wouldn't be able to use it. Mine is for PBEM, and once you start a game as PBEM you can't switch it over to AI.




poerr -> RE: A request on behalf of new Japanses Players (5/5/2005 4:18:54 PM)

My thought was to set up a turn against the AI and then save the game prior to execution of the turn. Make sense?




Grotius -> RE: A request on behalf of new Japanses Players (5/5/2005 4:57:14 PM)

I don't have a save of Turn 1 against the Allied AI for stock scenario 15; if I did, I'd be happy to send it to you. I do have one for one of Pry's alpha modded scenarios, but I doubt you want that.

In any case, my suggestion would be that you're better off making your own turn 1 and saving it for your own future use. If you used mine, you'd waste time trying to figure out why I'm sending a TF of empty APs to Tainan, or a TF of empty AKs to Amoy, or an ASW TF from Amoy to Pescadores, or why I'm choosing not to bombard at Khota Bharu, or why I'm not landing at Davao or Kendari. And, more important, you'd probably start wanting to do things differently.

Most important of all, doing your own turn 1 is really the best way to learn what forces are available to Japan. I know it's overwhelming at first. I remember the first time I saw all those planes at Takao (on Formosa), I just wanted to go to sleep instead of figuring out what to do with them. Now it's second nature: the level suppress airfields, torpedo bombers set to Naval Attack, fighters fly escort/CAP or LRCAP, recon planes recon every enemy base within range. I find it helpful to break your task down into manageable chunks. It's really quite fun once you get over the initial shock. Here's how I do it:

Survey your ground forces by pressing G, sorting for infantry or assault value, and seeing where all your divisions are. To take Malaya, you'll need several divisions; the same in the PI. (Plus support units: aviation support, HQs with regular support, engineers, artillery, etc.) Survey your aircraft by pressing A and sorting out everything except transports, then patrol planes, recon, torpedo bombers, etc. Survey your ships by pressing S. Start to think about where you want to strike. Obviously the more you concentrate your forces at a given location (say, the Philippines), the quicker it will fall; but other crucial objectives (say, Singapore) also await. Me, I see Singapore and Clark/Manila is my most urgent initial objectives; Singapore because it's the gateway to the SRA; Clark/Manila because the longer you wait, the more dug in those troops will get. I'm cautious about grabbing oil centers too early for fear that I will simply give my opponent bombing practice if I don't have the forces to clear him completely out at the same time.

Then set aside one gaming session just for Production. You might "crib" from, say, Mogami by noting what planes he's decided to produce (he says so in his "I hate Turn 1" thread). E.g., halt production of Nates and Claudes (in the hopes that these halted Claude factories will auto-convert to Zeroes on Jan 1942, which used to be the case; we're not sure if it still is); expand a few size-5 armaments factories but otherwise be very cautious about expanding, since this costs much supply, which is precious. I also tend not to set most of my bases to construct anything, again to save supply. Also, halt production of overpriced CV Shinano and maybe a BB and other pricey ships, and accelerate other CVs and DDs. Or just halt Shinano if you want.

Then start working on ships. It's sometimes reassuring to begin with subs, which don't require a lot of decisionmaking. Keep 'em out of shallow-water and base hexes, where they are more vulnerable. Keep em away from enemy air bases.

Then load up transports with troops destined for ports that, preferably, have decent airfields at which you can immediately set up fighters and bombers. Once you've done that, add supply-transport TFs, consisting only of AKs and escorts. (AKs unload faster than APs.) Or put the supply-laden AKs into your AP TFs if you like. Next add covering surface groups plus ASW groups to follow your invasion TFs. Depending on your style, you might want some surface groups to bombard invasion targets, but bear in mind that while this may eliminate the enemy's air threat to your invasion, it may also slow down your efforts to base your own planes their once the base is seized.

Finally add air cover: long range CAP, plus Betties/Nells set to Naval Attack, plus level bomers (Sallies, Lilies) bombing airfields to suppress resistance there. I add LRCAP last because I don't know where I'll need it til I've given orders to surface ships requiring it.

Then hit "end turn" and enjoy. You'll of course miss some things, but so what; you can do those on turn 2. And turn 2 will seem easy as pie compared to turn 1.




Grotius -> RE: A request on behalf of new Japanses Players (5/5/2005 5:00:12 PM)

One more piece of unsolicited advice: use 3x as much transport capacity as the game says you need for troops. Doing so will usually guarantee that all troops load on the turn of loading (you can tell this by loading them and checking if you're "loading supplies," which tells you you're done loading troops; then cancel load supplies and move out -- allow a separate TF of AKs to carry the supply). They'll also unload faster that way. Otherwise you sit and wait for agonizing days while your troops try to pack themselves into every nook and cranny of an AP.




Nikademus -> RE: A request on behalf of new Japanses Players (5/5/2005 5:01:33 PM)

If you send him beer and sweet talk him, you might get Mogami to send you his patented Turn 1 extravaganza [;)]




rtrapasso -> RE: A request on behalf of new Japanses Players (5/5/2005 5:12:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

If you send him beer and sweet talk him, you might get Mogami to send you his patented Turn 1 extravaganza [;)]



Alas - Mogami's turn is set for PBEM. He has been loathe to supply this since it would necessarily reveal his password (which can't be changed under current game mechanics).




Nikademus -> RE: A request on behalf of new Japanses Players (5/5/2005 5:17:00 PM)

ok. send me beer and i'll create a vs. AI turn 1.

(note: author can take no responsibilty for tactical worth of said turn 1 because he will have been drinking beer while creating the turn)

[:'(]




Speedysteve -> RE: A request on behalf of new Japanses Players (5/5/2005 6:10:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ok. send me beer and i'll create a vs. AI turn 1.

(note: author can take no responsibilty for tactical worth of said turn 1 because he will have been drinking beer while creating the turn)

[:'(]


In short it wil be crap with lots of transport TF's with a destination of 'San Francisco' [;)]




Nikademus -> RE: A request on behalf of new Japanses Players (5/5/2005 7:19:39 PM)

GASP! I am offended sir. My Turn 1 is most certainly not crap!

It is just that the turn's complexity and far seeing view is not readily apparant to those who have not first consumed a six-pack.





Speedysteve -> RE: A request on behalf of new Japanses Players (5/5/2005 7:22:04 PM)

LOL Nik. I humbly apologise then sir [:'(]




Banquet -> RE: A request on behalf of new Japanses Players (5/5/2005 7:43:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

GASP! I am offended sir. My Turn 1 is most certainly not crap!

It is just that the turn's complexity and far seeing view is not readily apparant to those who have not first consumed a six-pack.





I'll gladly consume a 6 pack in order help me appreciate your tactical genious Nik [:D] If you do make a turn 1, can you send it to me too, at dweller@deeppuddle.freeserve.co.uk

I've been contemplating trying the Japanese for ages but everytime I look at the map on turn 1.. and start thinking about production and move orders I get a headache and decide to have another game as the Allies instead.

It would be very interesting to see what orders a grizzled veteran uses! (I meant grizzled in the best possible way [;)] )




Nikademus -> RE: A request on behalf of new Japanses Players (5/5/2005 8:18:25 PM)

take my advice....dont mess with production while trying to formuate a turn 1 battle plan at the same time. It'll take you forever and give you ulcers [:D]




Charbroiled -> RE: A request on behalf of new Japanses Players (5/6/2005 2:06:56 AM)

Poerr - It sounds like I have the same problem with time as you. I have refrained from doing a PBEM because I may only be able to play one turn a week. If you ever feel you would like to do a PBEM, let me know. However, I hope you are young.




Charles2222 -> RE: A request on behalf of new Japanses Players (5/6/2005 9:54:39 AM)

poerr: I like the idea, but, ultimately, you're going to have to face your first turn. The historic first turn gives Japan a few places the TF's go and usually conquer or sit, but the turn after, or the turn after that, you will get bored with those achievements and want something else. With somebody sending you their first turn, there will be a time when that's not enough either, so you might as well let that historic first turn run if you prefer and then dive in yourself. Perhaps the thing that will take the most time that first turn, is trying to figure out just what you want to do with production, particularly what planes you want to keep producing or not.

BTW, I use the base method for going through this monster. I start with Tokyo and do everything I can do in that hex, such as set air patrols and change production, and deal with the fleets in that hex alone and then hit 'next base' and do the same there. When going to the next base gets back to Tokyo again I know I've completed work on all those hexes.

Next I peruse the map and look for ground units and TF's that aren't in base hexes. On the historic turn two 12/8/41 that's pretty much just the submarines and a few other TF's. Setting your air for KB (TF1) is a key decision.

The last thing I do is look for conflict hexes. These are hexes where I have forces that are actually in enemy bases. You see how these don't fit under "base' or 'non-base' hexes don't you? Thereby they can be easily missed.

One of the key things, should you adopt my method, is for the first turn when you can give orders is to check the ground units when you do the base phase and see what bases they are prepared for. There is a division in the home islands somewhere, perhaps Osaka, which is lsated for Kuantan for example, so you probably want to figure out just when you want to load that unit and use it there. Most of your ground units just have the base they are in as a preparation point so they are more reasonably used for just any old place. You can of course write down the odd ground units you find like this and then conduct landings with those pre-defined areas (Palau has one set for Jolo and one for Davao). These are prepared 100% for those attacks, so they are as prepared as they can be, so I always use them in those places (it's just a matter of when).

Make no mistake, turn one no matter how you do it is pretty rpugh, but once you devise a method and stick to it things get pretty easy.

BTW, one tip I just caught onto myself is saving me TONS of worry regarding dealing with TF's. Suppose you're short of oil on Taigo. One of the problems a lot of us have or had, was trying to remember whether we ever sent a fleet there to give it oil. Solved very simply. You hit the TF button at the top and sort the 'destination' column and therefore real quick you can see if that base has any transports with that as the destination. I can't tell you how easy that makes my TF management now. I only wish there were such a thing for ground forces too.

I hope there's something on here which will help you.




Rainerle -> RE: A request on behalf of new Japanses Players (5/6/2005 11:37:47 AM)

Hi,
my advice would be to make turn 1 yourself. It's the only way of getting into the game and to understand the problems you're facing. The same goes for the japanese production. If you really want to understand it make your own spreadsheet.




poerr -> RE: A request on behalf of new Japanses Players (5/6/2005 5:45:01 PM)

Thanks for the input everyone. Mogami also emailed me on this too. His advice is pretty much like yours - jump in and do it. I suppose in a sense, that is what the smaller scenarios are for. Also, there will be some mistakes along the way, so best to learn from them. Some great advice in this thread, so perhaps that is where to leave it.

Many thanks,

Russ




Yamato hugger -> RE: A request on behalf of new Japanses Players (5/7/2005 6:14:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: poerr

My request is this - would some of the vets of the Japanese side consider posting a turn one savegame with the basic opening moves and industry adjustments? Nothing to give away your secrets, but something the newbies to the Japanese side could study and perhaps experiment with. [&o]

You may now return to regular broadcasting and discussion.....

Many thanks!

Russ


Russ,

This is what I do: I go though my opening moves and save game. Then I go though my factory changes and base expansions, leadter changes ect, and then I save that to a different save. I use these as my "stock" starts vs AI. I play a few turns, or even a few months, and when I see if I did something wrong (expanding too many factories for example) I can go back to the save and start over without having to put another 12 hours into the opening turn. I could send you mine, but I think you would be better off doing something like this for yourself.




BraveHome -> RE: A request on behalf of new Japanses Players (5/9/2005 8:30:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: poerr

Thanks for the input everyone. Mogami also emailed me on this too. His advice is pretty much like yours - jump in and do it. I suppose in a sense, that is what the smaller scenarios are for. Also, there will be some mistakes along the way, so best to learn from them. Some great advice in this thread, so perhaps that is where to leave it.

Many thanks,

Russ

The way to make a complex task easy is to break it down into many simple steps. While this make take an enormous amount of time, you'll find it less daunting when you're done.

My first turn as Japan, I created a spreadsheet to track my forces, using the following as header categories:

Force Origin Where Action Dist UF TAF DefF DefT FortL FReq Esc? Sup? Comments


Basically, these mean:

Force: The Unit in question (could be Land/Air/Naval)
Origin: Where it starts in your chosen scenario.
Where: Where I wish it to go (either T1, or eventually for planning purposes, see Comments).
Action: What it is doing this turn (can use chart for more than just T1).
Dist: Distance to destination (useful for sizing what can be reached, when)
UF: The current assault value of the Unit
TAF: The Total Assault Force of units heading for the same destination (useful for computing assault results, especially for Atolls).
DefF: Er, the estimated Defense Forces based on current Intelligence....
FortL: Um, the estimated Fort Level of the current target....
FReq: The force required to win a combat on current target
Esc?: Is this TF currently escorted? (Y/N)
Sup?: Is this TF currently accompanied by sufficient supply (or will be at destination)?
Comments: Usually why I'm doing what I'm doing, to help track integrated TF efforts.

That should do for a start.




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