RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker (Full Version)

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Mr.Frag -> RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker (5/11/2005 1:09:29 AM)

quote:

My concern is that most players don't watch the LCU resolution phase.
That's going to be the only time an opposing player is going to notice it.

That is, if they know what they're looking at.


There is no way to undo the fact you have bumped up the unit ... you'll know in the end or you'll know based on obvious shear numbers ... when you see a ground combat, snap a screen shot of the panel with all the units displayed ... the cheating ones will be seriously overstrength.



jwilkerson -> RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker (5/11/2005 1:30:39 AM)

I've played over 500 turns of PBEM campaign game since release ... and I have to admit I "noticed it" ... but more in the back of my head ... because it also sort of happens to air units ... in the sense that some of my air units get over strength too .. but only by a little bit ... usually about 20-30 percent of their total strength ... and if I transfer them .. the overage often disappers ... so I "noticed" ... that sometimes land units had more squads ( disabled plus functioning ) than the total they were supposed to have in to OB .. but nothing like double or more ... just a few more ... so I only noticed it in that sense ... and maybe it was due to this .. though I rarely breakdown divisions ... but I do it more than I break down air units. So anyway it has probably happened in my games but I never thought it could do what we've seen here ... multiply on and on ... so this is a good catch ! And since it is easy to reproduce, shouldn't be too hard to fix ...




Halsey -> RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker (5/11/2005 1:37:54 AM)

Irrelevant gets credit also, for his honesty. Then I started double checking my own units.
I didn't think anything about it. Just noticed that it was out of wack.

Then I noticed some units were more than out of wack.[:D]



jwilkerson -> RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker (5/11/2005 1:42:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Halsey

Irrelevant gets credit also, for his honesty. Then I started double checking my own units.
I didn't think anything about it. Just noticed that it was out of wack.

Then I noticed some units were more than out of wack.[:D]



So is this where the 200,000 troops that invaded Ceylon came from !!! If so, then maybe problem solved !



Halsey -> RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker (5/11/2005 1:47:27 AM)

Yeah, one of his divisions there cloned itself after Trincomalee was captured.
We're gonna keep playing though.[;)]

Maybe we can find some more bugs that others don't seem to notice.[;)]



Yank -> RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker (5/11/2005 2:53:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

Ack! This is indeed a 'gamebreaker'. I hope Mike Wood has some time to look into it. I assume this only happens when you divide and re-combine on purpose. Does anybody know if this happends when LCUs transported by sea re-combine at their destination point?


It requires a deliberate act by the player to cause. You have to divide 2 different units one after the other then repeatedly rebuild and divide the second unit to steal the data record from the first unit.

Mike already fixed one variation of this in 1.5.

If you accidently manage to cause this, you simply load back your save and adjust the order of your clicks to not repeat. That simple. If you suspect someone is exploiting this, flip me a save and I'll tell you flat out and you can go find an new PBEM partner.


Ok - Thanks Frag for the additional details



tsimmonds -> RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker (5/11/2005 3:24:44 PM)

quote:

It requires a deliberate act by the player to cause. You have to divide 2 different units one after the other then repeatedly rebuild and divide the second unit to steal the data record from the first unit.


This is not accurate. In the most recent case, I split a single division, then recombined it, one time. Did not divide any other units in the hex, did not do it multiple times. And it ended up at 250% TOE. I only noticed it because of the AV it had in the ground combat animation.

quote:

So is this where the 200,000 troops that invaded Ceylon came from !!! If so, then maybe problem solved !


I know you're kidding, but to keep the public record straight, not only don't I have 200,000 troops on Ceylon, the ones that took Trincomalee were all legit. [;)]



Mr.Frag -> RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker (5/11/2005 4:09:22 PM)

quote:

I split a single division, then recombined it, one time.


That is what I said ... split and recombine ... to keep growing it further you split and recombine again.

Why not simply leave that recombine button alone? [;)]



tsimmonds -> RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker (5/11/2005 4:14:08 PM)

quote:

Why not simply leave that recombine button alone?


Going to now, you bet. Does this problem have any chance of being fixed?



michaelm75au -> RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker (5/11/2005 4:44:13 PM)

HI
again, if you time the sequence correctly, you can even over strengthen a brigade (splits into 2).

My test brigade is at the moment at 1027% of its TOE[:D][:D]

Michael



jwilkerson -> RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker (5/11/2005 6:01:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

I split a single division, then recombined it, one time.


That is what I said ... split and recombine ... to keep growing it further you split and recombine again.

Why not simply leave that recombine button alone? [;)]


( speaking from the Japanese side )

The only reasons I split air units are

(A) I split the carrier capable units when feeding them into the carrier trained ones.

(B) I split the Tina unit because it is so powerful - and this unit usually remains split for the duration.

And haven't really had any problems with the above.

The only 2 reasons I split ground units.

(C) To gain intial garrison coverage for a pair of cities in central China

(D) In lieu of 3 SNFLs to invade 3 smaller locations during the SRA campaign ... recombing after pulling the units back out.

But there are reasons to break things down ... though I could probably give up all but (A) above ...



Halsey -> RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker (5/11/2005 10:27:24 PM)

OK. New house rules to use.

1. No breaking down and recombining of airgroups. It causes the leader loss bug.
2. No breaking down and recombining LCU's. It may cause the unit multiply in size.

Any other solutions to these?[;)]



Yamato hugger -> RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker (5/11/2005 10:29:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: moses


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

Its only a gamebreaker if you allow it to be. Simple rule: Break a unit down, no rebuilding it. Problem solved. Then again, if you playing against someone that would use this exploit, then you are better off quitting (and finding a new opponant) IMHO.


The problem is I suspect most players would do this accedentally and not even notice until days later. I break down a unit and then change my mind. I would never have thought that there could be a problem and might not always notice that my strength has changed. Some days or weeks later I notice I have a double strength unit running around.


Yes you are totally right about that. I just noticed one of my CD units in a game vs the AI is at 300+% strength right now, and I havent done a thing to it.

Edit:
Let me clarify that. Its at 300%+ on both strength AND TO&E.



Halsey -> RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker (5/12/2005 11:42:03 PM)

bump[;)]



jwilkerson -> RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker (5/13/2005 1:06:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Halsey

OK. New house rules to use.

1. No breaking down and recombining of airgroups. It causes the leader loss bug.
2. No breaking down and recombining LCU's. It may cause the unit multiply in size.

Any other solutions to these?[;)]




Well I guess it could be worse .. the only airgroups I break down are the IJN carrier capable ones ... to use as feeders for the carrier trained groups ... and the 36 plane Tina unit ... but I think I can survive if I never recombine them ...

As to divisions ... I do sometimes break them down ( as IJA ) when taking the SRA ... and would definitely want to recombine them ... but I guess instead I could just keep shuffling the NLF/SNLF/Bdes etc.


Do we know ... if we build the units back up to full strength BEFORE we recombine ... if that eliminates that recombine problem ?





2Stepper -> RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker (5/13/2005 1:53:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

Ack! This is indeed a 'gamebreaker'. I hope Mike Wood has some time to look into it. I assume this only happens when you divide and re-combine on purpose. Does anybody know if this happends when LCUs transported by sea re-combine at their destination point?


It requires a deliberate act by the player to cause. You have to divide 2 different units one after the other then repeatedly rebuild and divide the second unit to steal the data record from the first unit.

Mike already fixed one variation of this in 1.5.

If you accidently manage to cause this, you simply load back your save and adjust the order of your clicks to not repeat. That simple. If you suspect someone is exploiting this, flip me a save and I'll tell you flat out and you can go find an new PBEM partner.



So is it "safe" to say FRAG that its an "exploit" rather then a bug? Or would both terms apply in this case? [&:]

Just curious. [8D]



Bradley7735 -> RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker (5/13/2005 1:58:11 AM)

I'm pretty sure that Mr. Frag has at least implied that it's a bug and is on the list to be fixed. He may have even directly indicated it, but I don't want to read through the whole thread again.



2Stepper -> RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker (5/13/2005 3:50:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

I'm pretty sure that Mr. Frag has at least implied that it's a bug and is on the list to be fixed. He may have even directly indicated it, but I don't want to read through the whole thread again.



Only reason I ask the question is because this is the first I've heard of it. I've recombined units on a number of occasions and even tried to do it with a Japanese unit in a 1.5 PBEM game. Didn't work. So I really don't know what to make of it.



Halsey -> RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker (5/13/2005 4:43:08 AM)

It won't do it with all LCU's. You just have to play around with a few of them.
I've got around 6 such units in 2 seperate PBEM games, of all nationalities.



moses -> RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker (5/13/2005 5:47:17 AM)

I just tried to recreate the bug by only dividing and recombining the 18th division which had shown the bug earlier. I was unable to do so. It may well be that it requires a player to be dividing and combining several different units in close time proximity as Frag had suggested.

While it is most definatly a bug it doesn't seem to be reason to panic. It looks to me that if you only divide units when there is a tactical reason for doing so you are probably pretty safe. If you are constantly dividing and recombining units in order to gain some kind of advntage like faster replacement gains you should probably rethink this tactic.

Of course I hope they will track this down and kill it.



jwilkerson -> RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker (5/13/2005 6:11:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: moses

I just tried to recreate the bug by only dividing and recombining the 18th division which had shown the bug earlier. I was unable to do so. It may well be that it requires a player to be dividing and combining several different units in close time proximity as Frag had suggested.

While it is most definatly a bug it doesn't seem to be reason to panic. It looks to me that if you only divide units when there is a tactical reason for doing so you are probably pretty safe. If you are constantly dividing and recombining units in order to gain some kind of advntage like faster replacement gains you should probably rethink this tactic.

Of course I hope they will track this down and kill it.



Just for the record,

When I tested, I divided and recombined the IJA 18th, the 8th Indian Bde, and a Chineses and Japanese unit in China. The 18th and 8th were in combat ( with each other ) the units in China were not. In this case the 18th did multiply ...




Mr.Frag -> RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker (5/13/2005 2:26:22 PM)

quote:

So is it "safe" to say FRAG that its an "exploit" rather then a bug? Or would both terms apply in this case?


It is a bug since it happens.

It is also an exploit because a player could repeat it multiple times to build super units.



Feinder -> RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker (5/13/2005 5:22:47 PM)

Well, at least in PBEM, I think you -need- to split some units (at least as Allies, early on). It's the only way to actually garrison all of where you -need- to garrison. Putting a single USMC Def Btn is -not- suffient to garrison the chain to Oz.

I split up some of the Divs in PH, and plunk portions of them to defend the chain. Japan can kill a Def Btn with a brigade. But putting a 1/3 of a Div plus other friends on an island, will set you well against a landing, even at Division strength (just ask Erstad how well his landing at Canton faired).

Of course, if you pull a Div from PH to garrison the chain, you need to make sure you stay on top of porting your reinforcements from SanFran to PH (something I also stay on top of, go ahead and invade PH, or Lihu, or any of the HI, if you dare... *grin*).

I think a good house rule is to simply "play well with others". Split if you need to. But don't go back-n-forth, simply to abuse the bug.

-F-



treespider -> RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker (5/13/2005 8:20:02 PM)

Does it only happen when you divide and then immediately recombine .... or... does it happen when you divide and then recombine at some later time and place?



Halsey -> RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker (5/14/2005 1:26:57 AM)

I've seen it both ways. A recombination months later and some right away. It seems to depend on their strength level. Even then it appears random.
If you're not paying close attention, it's real easy to miss.

The clue is at the top left of the LCU screen. It'll show something like 158/187, or larger. When it goes past 100, then you can tell it's overstrength.



Arkady -> RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker (5/16/2005 6:41:10 PM)

Is there any solution for already over-strength units ? I've found that two of my japanese divisions in China are plaqued with this bug. They demand too much supply and it is maybe worst effect than their high assault value.

It is team PBEM and we don't want start it over.

What's about some quick fix from 2by3 ?

thanks
Arkady



tsimmonds -> RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker (5/16/2005 6:43:16 PM)

Frag just posted in the main forum (follow this link then scroll down to post #14) that they are working on this as well as a couple other things....



Arkady -> RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker (5/16/2005 6:47:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

Frag just posted in the main forum (follow this link then scroll down to post #14) that they are working on this as well as a couple other things....


thanks, I just found it [:)]

I'm putting both divisions out of combat line until release of this hot fix

Arkady



tsimmonds -> RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker (5/16/2005 6:52:39 PM)

I'm sure there is no hope for units that have already become, er, enlarged.



Mr.Frag -> RE: Oversized LCU's Gamebreaker (5/16/2005 7:02:51 PM)

quote:

I'm putting both divisions out of combat line until release of this hot fix


It will not be able to undo what has happened, all it can do it prevent future doubling.



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