How to hold the Burma Road ? (Full Version)

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Darksky -> How to hold the Burma Road ? (5/13/2005 9:49:24 PM)

Hi,

i'm playing my 1st PBEM on scenario 15 ( and in general my 2nd pbem ) and i'm looking for game experience and suggestion on how keep open the Burma road.

I read a lot about Burma defense, India defense and so on.
My unique objective in Burma is not to defende Burma but only to defend the Burma road to "help" by good supply my units in china teathre.

There's a way to make a stand for it, without mobilizing India troops ?



kaiser73 -> RE: How to hold the Burma Road ? (5/13/2005 9:54:40 PM)

No [8D]

Seriously, if Japan decides to take Burma, you lose Burma. Regardless of the troops you moved there from China.

Mandalay (only city you can defend without fearing to be encircled if beaten) has Malaria, Rangoon has not.
Since defending Rangoon as Allies is just looking for trouble, better run for another day [:D]



jeanbart_MF -> RE: How to hold the Burma Road ? (5/13/2005 10:20:21 PM)

quote:

Seriously, if Japan decides to take Burma, you lose Burma. Regardless of the troops you moved there from China.

Mandalay (only city you can defend without fearing to be encircled if beaten) has Malaria, Rangoon has not.
Since defending Rangoon as Allies is just looking for trouble, better run for another day


I do agree with kaiser73, during a very (too) long period the "burma road" is impossible to defend. The only player able to defend this lane is the japanese one, if he decides to attack Russia [:D] and to ignore burma for several months.




moses -> RE: How to hold the Burma Road ? (5/13/2005 10:42:25 PM)

I think the key question is what are you defending against?

If Japan sends three divisions charging north in the 1st few weeks then its a lost cause. You fight a very rapid delay back to Mandalay where you defend as best you can before being driven back to India. Tie these Japanese forces up as long as you can and be happy because you should be doing pretty well in either Malaysia or PI where those divisions could have been sent.

Against 2 divisions I'm not so sure that a defense is impossible. You can fight a slightly more aggressive delay still based on a withdraw to Mandalay. Mandalay will probably still fall but may last long enough for your SEAC divisions to get into position defending the Burma road.

Of course after the fall of Singapore Japan might always send a large force north in which case he's going to close the Burma road. But as the allied player I'm not going to be too upset to see 4 or 5 Japanese divisions wasting a lot of time in Burma in early 42.



Bobthehatchit -> RE: How to hold the Burma Road ? (5/13/2005 11:07:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: moses

I think the key question is what are you defending against?

If Japan sends three divisions charging north in the 1st few weeks then its a lost cause. You fight a very rapid delay back to Mandalay where you defend as best you can before being driven back to India. Tie these Japanese forces up as long as you can and be happy because you should be doing pretty well in either Malaysia or PI where those divisions could have been sent.

Against 2 divisions I'm not so sure that a defense is impossible. You can fight a slightly more aggressive delay still based on a withdraw to Mandalay. Mandalay will probably still fall but may last long enough for your SEAC divisions to get into position defending the Burma road.

Of course after the fall of Singapore Japan might always send a large force north in which case he's going to close the Burma road. But as the allied player I'm not going to be too upset to see 4 or 5 Japanese divisions wasting a lot of time in Burma in early 42.


Pull back to India, rescue the Singapore based Brigades, let them rebuild, await the arrival of the British Div's and Brigades, Build the Tank units up to full strength and bomb the hell out of his troops then attack on-mass with Several Inf and armoured divison + Arty, engineers and HQ's with every transport you can scrape together flying supplys. Your route back to Burma is up to you, Via sea or trail to Mandalay and Rangoon.



DrewMatrix -> RE: How to hold the Burma Road ? (5/14/2005 2:58:50 AM)

Let the Japanese _take_ the Burma road. The more they commit to the interior the better. Then use BBs under air cover to bombard as you advance along the coast road. Eventually you will cut the Japanese off about Tavoy.



sadja -> RE: How to hold the Burma Road ? (5/14/2005 7:14:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Beezle

Let the Japanese _take_ the Burma road. The more they commit to the interior the better. Then use BBs under air cover to bombard as you advance along the coast road. Eventually you will cut the Japanese off about Tavoy.


Thats what happened to me as Japaneese player. Blam0 got behind me and cut my troops off.

Sadja



Tom Hunter -> RE: How to hold the Burma Road ? (5/14/2005 3:34:12 PM)

When trying to hold Burma you have the same problem the Allies have everywhere on the map in 1942, if the Japanese really want something they can bring overwhelming force to bear and take it.

But they can't do that everywhere and the harder you fight them the fewer places they can take.

You also need to be careful about over committing Indian troops in Burma. If you send too many the Japanese will figure out you have left India undefended and invade near Calcutta, cut you off and your in real trouble.

The Chinese units that are assigned to SE Asia HQ are worth looking at. During the real war they were brought to India, trained and supplied and took back Mitykina in 44. They start weak but you can turn them into a powerful force.

When thinking about Burma be sure to think of the larger picture. The Japanese can win the game in China and India in 1942. So your first priority should be making sure that those two places do not fall. That does not mean focus on defensive actions, sometimes a good offensive does much more to secure your position than all the defensive preperation in the world. But it does mean you should watch the whole area, not just Burma.

If you want to see a good AAR on what happens when you put too much India army into Burma read the PzB Vs Wobbly two part AAR. Wobbly titled his "Sand In the Vasaline" PzB titled his "Clash of Steel"

At an even higher level of strategy there are two main schools of thought for the Allies. Stand and fight or Fabian (often called Sir Robin, meaning bravely run away) strategies. I am a strong advocate of fighting and I have an AAR going as well. The Japanese are in Burma with 55,000 men right now and I have posted a fair amount about my Burma strategy there. This is a public post and my opponent is welcome to read it so I am not going to go into specifics here.



kaiser73 -> RE: How to hold the Burma Road ? (5/16/2005 11:56:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter

When trying to hold Burma you have the same problem the Allies have everywhere on the map in 1942, if the Japanese really want something they can bring overwhelming force to bear and take it.

But they can't do that everywhere and the harder you fight them the fewer places they can take.

You also need to be careful about over committing Indian troops in Burma. If you send too many the Japanese will figure out you have left India undefended and invade near Calcutta, cut you off and your in real trouble.

The Chinese units that are assigned to SE Asia HQ are worth looking at. During the real war they were brought to India, trained and supplied and took back Mitykina in 44. They start weak but you can turn them into a powerful force.

When thinking about Burma be sure to think of the larger picture. The Japanese can win the game in China and India in 1942. So your first priority should be making sure that those two places do not fall. That does not mean focus on defensive actions, sometimes a good offensive does much more to secure your position than all the defensive preperation in the world. But it does mean you should watch the whole area, not just Burma.

If you want to see a good AAR on what happens when you put too much India army into Burma read the PzB Vs Wobbly two part AAR. Wobbly titled his "Sand In the Vasaline" PzB titled his "Clash of Steel"

At an even higher level of strategy there are two main schools of thought for the Allies. Stand and fight or Fabian (often called Sir Robin, meaning bravely run away) strategies. I am a strong advocate of fighting and I have an AAR going as well. The Japanese are in Burma with 55,000 men right now and I have posted a fair amount about my Burma strategy there. This is a public post and my opponent is welcome to read it so I am not going to go into specifics here.


IMO the best strategy is a mix:
1) Fight to the bitter end in SRA but only with the units already there.
2) Make a fighting retreat in Burma/China (meaning you fight till you can then retreat but avoid beeing encircled
3) do NOT (never...never...never) commit your CV TF unless you know at 100% that KB is FAAAAR from you till you are confident you can beat it
4) be aggressive with your air assets as much as you can

If you evacuate anything you can, you just get a Japan reaching his first objectives (burma/SRA) by end of March. This means Japan can try something else before June.

However, if you commit your CV and lose them, it means You won't be able to start your counter attack before '43 and that Japan will prolly be able to hurt you a lot in first 8 months if you have no CV to keep him "honest".

The first goal as Allies is: getting in June '42 with all CV and without having Japan holding NZ/Australia/India/China.





String -> RE: How to hold the Burma Road ? (5/16/2005 12:59:33 PM)

The first key to keeping Burma open is defending Singapore as long as you can. Before Singapore is neutralized the japanese cannot move out the forces from Malaya, and they can't really bring out stuff from somewhere else to do a simultaneous advance on Burma and Malaya. The Japanese NEED to take Singapore however, to advance towards Java and Palembang.

So as long as you keep Singapore, Burma is relatively safe to build up its forts etc.



Graymane -> RE: How to hold the Burma Road ? (5/16/2005 10:04:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kaiser73

IMO the best strategy is a mix:
1) Fight to the bitter end in SRA but only with the units already there.
2) Make a fighting retreat in Burma/China (meaning you fight till you can then retreat but avoid beeing encircled


Stupid newbie question, but how do I retreat? When I was playing last night, I tried to move troops in the hex next to Ragoon north, but since there were enemy troops in the same hex, I couldn't move and when they assaulted and I had to retreat, it moved me along a different road than I had intended.



DuckHunt -> RE: How to hold the Burma Road ? (5/17/2005 12:59:17 PM)

Actually, it is possible to storm through Burma very early without overcomiting or delaying the assault on Malaya. Did this quite a few times and the whole campaign can last two weeks at best, after that its mostly mopping up and waiting [:D] for the Chinese... . Meaning some LCUs can race down the railroad toward Malaya in time to reinforce for the final assault on Singapore, there are more than enough forces avaible to force the way south toward Singapore in the same time and actually you do want to have him fight outside of the city.
Now right I play semi-historical so I dont care that much about a minor delay in conquering the SRA.
Anyhow, IMO there is no way Burma can be held, and no point for the Japanese in allowing the British here to dig in and be reinforced by the chinese.



kaiser73 -> RE: How to hold the Burma Road ? (5/17/2005 1:26:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Graymane

quote:

ORIGINAL: kaiser73

IMO the best strategy is a mix:
1) Fight to the bitter end in SRA but only with the units already there.
2) Make a fighting retreat in Burma/China (meaning you fight till you can then retreat but avoid beeing encircled


Stupid newbie question, but how do I retreat? When I was playing last night, I tried to move troops in the hex next to Ragoon north, but since there were enemy troops in the same hex, I couldn't move and when they assaulted and I had to retreat, it moved me along a different road than I had intended.



You need to know the ZOC rules to know where to defend.
When you are in an hex and you are beaten, your units retreat to the city closest (calculation of supply path) to the hex you in.
That's why if you defend North of Rangoon and you are beaten, your units won't retreat towards Mandalay as you would like, but towards Rangoon (the closest supply route).
If you make a stand in Mandalay and you are beaten, your units will retreat towards China(east) not toward India (north).
and so on.



Sardaukar -> RE: How to hold the Burma Road ? (5/17/2005 3:46:42 PM)

I've never been able to keep the Burma Road open in early 1942 even against AI in my campaign games. Not to mention if trying to defend Lashio, troops will not retreat towards Burma Road but towards Myitkyina...and getting them out that hex can take month or two... Against AI I've so far been able to keep Akyab as forward air base, though.

Cheers,

M.S.



Feinder -> RE: How to hold the Burma Road ? (5/17/2005 6:09:55 PM)

You really -can't- keep the Burma Road open in PBEM. It will eventually close, it's just a matter of how long you can keep it open.

There are three keys to delaying the inevitable :

1. Keep Sing alive as long as possible :
As pointed out earlier, once Sing falls, all those troops start marching on Burma/Inda (or some might be used in SRA). Make your fighting withdrawl down Malaya. That means marching out of a base just before Japan gets the magical 2-1 to force you to retreat. Try to keep your units moving towards Sing (sometimesyour guys will retreat the wrong way, away from Sing, which make it that much more important to walk out before being forced to retreat). It's not easy, but it can be done. Try not to let guys get cut off, and like an orderly withdrawl, this takes considerable planning also. I usually manage to hold Sing into into the 2nd week of February (and that was lacking 5 brigades that retreated stupidly, boy was I p_ssed). Again, buying time at Sing, buys you time in Burma/India.

2. Make a fighting withdrawl to Mandalay.
Get your guys (that are worth moving), heading towards Mandalay asap. This includes those 2 brigades on the trail past Tang-Gri(?). The guys at Moul are ok, and dug in pretty well (50 prep points), you might as well fight there for a turn or so, until everything behind you is heading for Mandalay. If you can withdraw (march out just before 2-1), with the Moul units, they'll be in better shape than if they retreated. Again they head to Mandaly. Rangoon isn't worth it (as far as I'm concerned), and you're just going to end up surrendering. If you want to leave a token force fine, but frankly, getting guys out there that can help you at Mandaly is preferable to me. It worked out well enough in one of my PBEM games, that I think I made it Mandalay with all 7(?) Burma Brigades intact (after fighting delay at Moul). Held Mandalay for about a week until 1-1 odds, then marched out and ran to Myt. It might be easier to hold Mandalay now, with the river crossing attack rule (I don't know, we were still on v1.4 when he attacked Mandalay). Forcing a gun-fight at Mandalay means driving up his fatigue (Rangoon is malaria free tho). And drop all the bombs on him that you can afford.

3. Make a final stand at Myt.
If your army is still intact, you should be able to hold for another week or so. By this time, it should be about February. Sing may or may not have fallen. If he's moved in guys from Sing, he's going to roll you. But if he's still only attacking you with his Burma forces, he'll have to choose to keep going (fatigued), or return to Rangoon for a little while to rest (he'll likely keep going, you -are- retreating after all). More bombs. He's now in range of most of your Indian bases, so do what you can to make his life miserable. He -will- force you out of Myt. But if you make him pay for it, it delays any action he might decide to take against you on the India frontier (or even invasion). It's your choice to withdraw or fight until retreated. Either way, your brigades are going to be shot to h_ll by the time they're thru, and it's going to take a month to for them to get to Ledo.

And don't forget about assigning SEAC objective!
From day one, assign SEAC to either Mandaly or Myt. It will accumulate prep-points for either objective. If you put it within 8 hexes (like in one of the major Indian cities like Dacca/Calcutta/whatever) of the objective, those points will help the assault strength of your units. At 100 prep-points (you won't get that many), it doubles your assault strenght. But even at just 40, you're getting a 40% bonus. Considering what you're up against, every point counts. It's your call if you want to prep for Mandalay, and then switch to Myt after Mandaly falls. Or just prep for Myt from the beginning. The reason you -might- want to prep for Mandalay is that you're more able to mount a better defense at Mandalay than Myt (your troops are fresher, and there's the river, and you might not time things right, and actually be retreated from Mandalay so your shot up when you retreat to Myt).



freeboy -> RE: How to hold the Burma Road ? (5/18/2005 8:25:45 PM)

Let them take the road.. prepare to counterattack in 43 aganst Akyab and up to Rangoon, this force the japs to retreat or face the very real possibility of being cut off without supplies. I reinforced my counter attck with US heavies shuttled in from bases in the SRA also taken in the 43 counter attacks.. I reall do not see how holding the road open is feasable.. as elequntly stated above the best you can do is delay...and remember you can fly supply transport missions over "the hump" as was done hystorically...



moses -> RE: How to hold the Burma Road ? (5/18/2005 9:17:30 PM)

Also realize that the Burma road, although useful, is not essential for china's survival. Supply in China will not matter unless the Chinese player is able to stabalize the front. If he does stabalize the front then he will only run short of supply if Japan engages in a sustained bombing campaign of China's remaining cities and gets a unit to Chungking.

Defeating China through sustained bombing long term bombing and ground offensives is doable for Japan but is costly in terms of pilots and may take until early 43 to accomplish. At this point it is unclear if the troops now freed up for operations in India will be all that useful if air superiority has passed to the allies.

So in the end I am not sure if allocating 2 or 3 Japanese divisions to cut the Burma road is worth it. I think it probably is as I like to at least place pressure on China early. Other players may choose to use these forces elsewhere.

As the allies all you can do is force Japan to pay for his conquests in terms of allocated divisions.



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