RE: Price a little steep? (Full Version)

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Hertston -> RE: Price a little steep? (5/28/2005 1:17:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Looks like SSG is going down the lines of HPS. Same game different theatre full price. The expansion pack looks dead as far as wargames go.


Wodin that is such a disappointing approach to this game and our hobby and in fact, it surprises me that you still bring it up after the huge debate during the release of Battles In Normandy.

There is simply no logic to arguing this tact.



I'm not so sure. I'll talk HPS here as the case is rather more extreme.

Does "same game different theatre full price" really bring in more cash? I'm sure, as with this series, there are many wargamers who enjoy Tiller's games to the extent they happily buy each one in a series, but IMHO the majority don't. There is a reluctance to essentially buy the same game over and over, albeit with different scenarios. In my case, I have three Squad Battles games, one Panzer Campaigns and one Modern Battles. I have no intention of buying more full price games, BUT if, say, Panzer Campaigns was a modular system I would almost certainly have spent a lot more overall. The sort of model I'm thinking of would involve an initial purchase of the "system", with one scenario pack of your choice for full price, say $50. The additional (ideally, downloadable) scenarios would be, say, $20 each. OK, HPS would make less on each sale, but in my case I would probably have bought all the scenario packs for both series, so overall HPS would have had a lot more of my business. $20 isn't a lot; its the sort of cash you would fork out on each release without worrying much, but over time it adds up.

Granted, HPS are pretty good at upgrading earlier games as the system evolves, but the additional advantage (to them, as well as purchasers) is all that would need upgrading was the core system. That would continue to evolve giving gamers a better product with time and bringing a freshness with each update to all the scenario packs you have.




Zap -> RE: Price a little steep? (5/28/2005 1:51:40 AM)

quote:

Go try and get a traditional war boardgame nowadays. Now that is sticker shock as their volume has got to be even much lower then PC niche wargames.



Mark Walker (doing Lock&Load) told me that more War Boardgames (in our niche market)are being sold than computer war games. I was surprised by that. He knows better than I since he has the numbers at his disposal.



wodin -> RE: Price a little steep? (5/28/2005 3:29:27 AM)

I read that aswell.

Boardgames have a far higher market share than PC Wargames.




EricGuitarJames -> RE: Price a little steep? (5/28/2005 3:57:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zap

quote:

Go try and get a traditional war boardgame nowadays. Now that is sticker shock as their volume has got to be even much lower then PC niche wargames.



Mark Walker (doing Lock&Load) told me that more War Boardgames (in our niche market)are being sold than computer war games. I was surprised by that. He knows better than I since he has the numbers at his disposal.



The only question I would ask here is 'define a computer wargame?'. Board wargames are fairly easy to define, but computer wargames?



Zap -> RE: Price a little steep? (5/28/2005 4:09:36 AM)

I,m not sure what fit into MarkhWalker's definition. But I was referring to non RTS -Turn based IGO UGO or even Wego



Adam Parker -> RE: Price a little steep? (5/28/2005 5:19:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zap

Kipper, he was joking don't take offense. Adam, I'm sure will tell you that yes, you can post here anytime. There are light hearted spifs on occasion nothing that should keep you just lurking. I caught his joke. He was simply saying don't give Matrix any ideas.


Oh indeed! Kipper I didn't think you took it the wrong way at all. I took your riposte as self deprecation too - loved it [:)] I'm humbled to be posting here myself! Kipper "come back" and bring Shane too. See that's another silly joke [>:] [:D]

quote:

ORIGINAL: Herston

I'll talk HPS here as the case is rather more extreme.

Does "same game different theatre full price" really bring in more cash? I'm sure, as with this series, there are many wargamers who enjoy Tiller's games to the extent they happily buy each one in a series, but IMHO the majority don't. There is a reluctance to essentially buy the same game over and over..."


Bring in cash or pay for the labor - the effort in bringing fresh research in a playable format with added chrome to the engine, art, writing and map to the market?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zap

Mark Walker (doing Lock&Load) told me that more War Boardgames (in our niche market)are being sold than computer war games.


I wouldn't be surprised by that at all. Board games still have huge advantages over PC's - great art, easy DYO, house rules, paper manuals, cardboard charts, unhidden math and seeing the map all at once true size.

PC war games take their strength from AI, FOW, no cut n' trim, more complex computer assisted math, computer assisted LOS and no mess/spilled stacks/huge floor-sized maps!

So what's let the PC war game market down over these past 10 years then? Bugs, poor AI, shoddy rule books, incomplete rules (remember East Front 1?), the poorly marketed trend to e-manuals and the lack of easy DYO.

Happy gaming everyone!
Adam.



Reiryc -> RE: Price a little steep? (5/28/2005 7:53:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kipper

I would pay $100+ each for these games.


Then allow me to buy the next one and sell it to ya... [:'(]



ravinhood -> RE: Price a little steep? (5/28/2005 12:30:18 PM)

Me, I'm just waiting on Schwerpunkts game AGW coming in August that will offer what BIN and BII and probably BIA (Battles in Africa) offer for one low low price of a mere $29.99 One game to "bind them all into one nice package deal". ;)



Hartford688 -> RE: Price a little steep? (5/28/2005 1:21:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

Me, I'm just waiting on Schwerpunkts game AGW coming in August that will offer what BIN and BII and probably BIA (Battles in Africa) offer for one low low price of a mere $29.99 One game to "bind them all into one nice package deal". ;)


I'm very much looking forward to AGW too, and the price is very low. But the scale is different so I'm not sure it really replaces DBS...

Just as RGW and KP are not interchangeable.



Adam Parker -> RE: Price a little steep? (5/28/2005 1:22:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

Me, I'm just waiting on Schwerpunkts game AGW coming in August that will offer what BIN and BII and probably BIA (Battles in Africa) offer for one low low price of a mere $29.99 One game to "bind them all into one nice package deal". ;)


[:)] Well here's Battles In Normandy ala Schwerpunkt! If Ron Dockall nails the interface and severe scroll lag this time, he's in with a chance - he'll have a rip roaring Divisional level sim with beautiful maps and the best counters information-wise in PC war gaming . But SSG still holds the Regimental level genre as does HPS the batallion level. True Ron may potentially have a great all in one package but SSG and HPS with their smaller scales will hold the market for multi-scenario, campaign based operational gaming.

If Ron get's it right this time I'm in with ya! Best of luck Ron. Hope you can pull it off.






[image]local://upfiles/6105/D063AFBEF7314FA78D8FAB9911C21F54.jpg[/image]



Hartford688 -> RE: Price a little steep? (5/28/2005 1:28:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

Me, I'm just waiting on Schwerpunkts game AGW coming in August that will offer what BIN and BII and probably BIA (Battles in Africa) offer for one low low price of a mere $29.99 One game to "bind them all into one nice package deal". ;)


[:)] Well here's Battles In Normandy ala Schwerpunkt! If Ron Dockall nails the interface and severe scroll lag this time, he's in with a chance - he'll have a rip roaring Divisional level sim with beautiful maps and the best counters information-wise in PC war gaming . But SSG still holds the Regimental level genre as does HPS the batallion level. True Ron may potentially have a great all in one package but SSG and HPS with their smaller scales will hold the market for multi-scenario, campaign based operational gaming.

If Ron get's it right this time I'm in with ya! Best of luck Ron. Hope you can pull it off.




Much better put than me. Agree entirely with all you said (though I have no scroll lag in RGW anyway). And especially your last para.



Hertston -> RE: Price a little steep? (5/28/2005 1:40:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

Bring in cash or pay for the labor - the effort in bringing fresh research in a playable format with added chrome to the engine, art, writing and map to the market?



At the end of the day, the purpose of the company is to generate profits, not just cover the costs of a labour of love. That isn't a criticism, its how the world works... and the Matrix folks have families and mortgages to support just as we do.

None of that prevents developers or publishers from enjoying what they do (they could probably all make more writing business applications, after all) but the bigger the financial reward the happier both they and company shareholders will be. And the more likely we are to see new and better games.



bostonrpgmania -> RE: Price a little steep? (5/28/2005 7:07:28 PM)

I thought kipper was also joking!
[:D][:D][:D]
lol


KP was the one which ignite my interest in wargaming [&o]
BiN was the best[&o]
I will try BiI very soon!!![:D] (right now i am tied up with silent hunter III, impeiral glory and Korea 85



Kipper -> RE: Price a little steep? (5/28/2005 7:20:57 PM)

Erik - When I said I would pay $100 for these SSG games - that was just a typo - should have typed $49.99 <I think I got us out of that one OK, guys>

Good to see long-boiling projects like AGW coming closer to seeing the light of day. Ron is an amazing guy to build a viable operational PC wargame in his spare time.

I think it's important to acknowledge how hard it can be. Anybody remember Road to Moscow? First heard of it back in '95 and was still being kicked around up as far as 00-01 before finally slipping beneath the waves. That was a sorry saga, galling to think of the hours that the developers put into that. Does anybody know whatever happened to the guys behind that - are they still in the business?

Kipper



myros -> RE: Price a little steep? (5/28/2005 9:56:45 PM)

For me yes the price is too steep. For those of us without bottomless wallets paying full price for 3 30 turn scenarios ... well, thats more of an expansion than a full game IMO.

Of course the "fan boys" will pay that (and I dont mean that term in any negative way, every game has people who just click with it for whatever reason) but people who arent already sold may hesitate (ie me).

So they charge $50 and a fan buys it, I dont. Total - $50
If they had charged $30 .... fan buys it, I buy it ... total = $60 (and this is digitial download we're talking so production/packaging cost is irrelevant here, selling 1 or 100 has zero impact on the cost to produce it ..other than some minor added server bandwidth).

Now if they had done it as a package deal with all the scenarios from BIN included ..and shown it for what it is (a upgrade to an existing engine with 3 new scenarios) then I would have payed $50 for it also.

I payed $70 for WitP ... and had no problem whatsoever at that price, its a huge game with many scenarios with the main one lasting years. So its not JUST the price thats the sticking point for me but also the very limited scenarios at that price.

But it does look interesting, if the price ever comes down or they make a package deal I will for sure take another look.

M



Kipper -> RE: Price a little steep? (5/28/2005 10:43:37 PM)

Myros I guess if as you put it, "it clicks" - good phrase - then you are paying for the ongoing maintenance/enhancement of the system and supporting a company who is interested in producing the games you "click with" in order to increase the chances of future like products. As well as for the immediate engine upgrades and scenarios in the release.

If you are as hard to satisfy as I am with wargames - and I only play SPWAW, DB, HTTR, a bit of UV and Bull Run these days - it probably makes more sense to be grateful when the click happens and be ready to ante up the cash!

Kipper



Erik Rutins -> RE: Price a little steep? (5/28/2005 10:57:11 PM)

Myros,

Did you notice that two free additional scenarios have already been released at the Run5/SSG site (and I'm sure more are to come)? Also, if you win the tournament this game will actually save you $50! I suggest buying it right away and playing non-stop. [;)]

Regards,

- Erik



TheHellPatrol -> RE: Price a little steep? (5/28/2005 11:26:24 PM)

Myros,
How many times have you gone out to dinner at some "nice" place, dropped a $100 or more, and been a little dissapointed? Oh well...you'd say...gotta eat?
I have a bottom of my wallet, i've never seen it but it must be there[:'(][;)], so i got BiI just because...even though i was quite involved with other things(some of which take place in actual life)...and may i say that the word "scenario" doesn't do BiI justice. the gameplay is by far, IMHO, the best of alll DB games of past, second maybe to Across The Dniepr. I actually came "out of the closet" and signed up at Run5, after all these years, so i could play in the tournament! Of course the prize, $100 worth of Matrix games, is practically useless to me being that i have everything i want...so far[:D].



Arckon -> RE: Price a little steep? (5/29/2005 5:02:30 AM)

Myros I would actually be interested in the cost to a Company to deliver games via Digital Download, I think it may be more costly than everyone imagines but then I honestly have no idea.

The reason I say this is because mentioned the convience of digital download to a company recently and was given impression it was not really a viable cost effective option for them.




myros -> RE: Price a little steep? (5/29/2005 4:38:23 PM)

Well, bandwidth is cheap. The cost for running an on-demand software outlet is mainly setup. Once its running its just server maintenance and customer support. Or IIRC in the case of Matrix they pay a 3rd party to handle the orders/server/bandwidth.

Mainly I was talking in comparison to the physical cost of packaging, manuals, CDs, storage, staff etc of a non-digital option. Digitial isnt free but relative to other options the quantity sold is irrelevant because wether you sell 50 copies or 100 copies your overhead will be identical (other than the extra bandwidth which these days is dirt cheap).

M


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arckon

Myros I would actually be interested in the cost to a Company to deliver games via Digital Download, I think it may be more costly than everyone imagines but then I honestly have no idea.

The reason I say this is because mentioned the convience of digital download to a company recently and was given impression it was not really a viable cost effective option for them.






Erik Rutins -> RE: Price a little steep? (5/29/2005 5:21:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arckon
Myros I would actually be interested in the cost to a Company to deliver games via Digital Download, I think it may be more costly than everyone imagines but then I honestly have no idea.


You're quite accurate in that, it is more than most think - it has distinct advantages and also a few disadvantages. Ultimately, it's another way of delivering your software worldwide but not without its own costs, some of which can be just as significant as selling to retail stores. It is definitely where the market is heading though and we feel that download sales will only continue to increase over the next 5-10 years.

Regards,

- Erik



Erik Rutins -> RE: Price a little steep? (5/29/2005 5:29:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: myros
Mainly I was talking in comparison to the physical cost of packaging, manuals, CDs, storage, staff etc of a non-digital option. Digitial isnt free but relative to other options the quantity sold is irrelevant because wether you sell 50 copies or 100 copies your overhead will be identical (other than the extra bandwidth which these days is dirt cheap).


Note that we also offer printed, boxed "game on demand" copies and also digital + boxed options - these still need to be setup, stocked and shipped out, so the end result is a hybrid process. Also, regardless of how you sell those copies, you still have 100 customers with games to support during and after the sale.

Note also that while bandwidth is cheap, customers will often re-download titles more than you think and if they have a problem, they may re-download more than you can imagine (believe me). You have to have enough bandwidth available to handle peak sale times as well, including game releases.

Ultimately, you need just as many people to support this method before and after the sale and what you might save on shipping or packaging you often spend on bandwidth, hardware, customer tech support and maintenance. Without going into more detail, it's closer to equivalent than most people think - but it's a far more convenient option for customers who are internet-savvy and also for those worldwide who wouldn't normally have access to these titles.

Regards,

- Erik



Arckon -> RE: Price a little steep? (5/30/2005 5:46:50 AM)

quote:

it's a far more convenient option for customers....and also for those worldwide who wouldn't normally have access to these titles


It is why I love digital download, living in Australia it is perfect to purchase the product and download it within a couple of hours rather than wait 3 - 7 weeks for shipping.

Mostly play games in this genre so ordering from OS is quite often the only option.



Zap -> RE: Price a little steep? (5/30/2005 8:18:22 AM)

quote:

PC war games take their strength from AI, FOW, no cut n' trim, more complex computer assisted math, computer assisted LOS and no mess/spilled stacks/huge floor-sized maps!

So what's let the PC war game market down over these past 10 years then? Bugs, poor AI, shoddy rule books, incomplete rules (remember East Front 1?), the poorly marketed trend to e-manuals and the lack of easy DYO.


1. Maybe the most important PC strength (pointed out by Herston in another thread) almost unlimited inovation, limited only by the memory size of the computer. I see a future for war game computer. Boardgame no.




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