1.5x and sightings (Full Version)

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myros -> 1.5x and sightings (6/10/2005 11:53:14 PM)

This from the info post on 1.5:

"8) Air search and air based ASW effectiveness were too effective. Fixed. "

If anything these seem to be even more effective. Started a new game on scen 15 and promptly sighted just about every sub around PH. Also played through a couple of weeks (game time) on my ongoing existing game vs AI and the sightings/sub-attacks seem to be unchanged ... even seem to be a little more common, though this is hard to quantify.

Hard to test really but figured Id pass the info on so maybe it can be double checked.

M



Mr.Frag -> RE: 1.5x and sightings (6/10/2005 11:59:58 PM)

Game type and skill level please.



myros -> RE: 1.5x and sightings (6/11/2005 12:49:04 AM)

Sorry should have listed that.

I play on Allied human vs AI Japan, with AI set to 'hard'. Scenario 15 with historic first turn, suprise etc on.
Thats the settings from the continuing game I have vs AI that I see no decrease in sightings or sub-attacks (and maybe even a little increase).

To test sightings on a new game I just ran the scenario 15 from the start with historic off and suprise off just to see how many subs would be sighted.
I set VP-11 and VP-12 to ASW (both catalina sqds with 12 aircfraft), then hit end turn.

They sighted around 25+ subs by the end of the day. Were subs really that easy to spot? To me that seems quite a bit too effective but Im no expert.

M



rogueusmc -> RE: 1.5x and sightings (6/11/2005 4:45:34 AM)

what % on ASW?



myros -> RE: 1.5x and sightings (6/11/2005 12:06:20 PM)

Both were on 100% ASW as usual.

Just to see what difference that made I ran the same test again, except this time I didnt change the 2 sqd to ASW. Hit end-turn and STILL got 25+ sightings of subs .... all those kingfishers etc from the BBs and CAs were the ones doing the sightings ;p

2 issues going here I guess ...

1. Sighting chance still seems to be very, very high
2. Should ships tied up at docks still be going 100% search from its seaplanes?

M



Erik Rutins -> RE: 1.5x and sightings (6/11/2005 3:53:42 PM)

Are you sure the update completed successfully? Do you have multiple installations of WitP or just one?

Regards,

- Erik



myros -> RE: 1.5x and sightings (6/11/2005 5:16:30 PM)

Yes, the auto-convoy system now works again and the dot base problems have resolved so Im pretty sure the update worked ok.
Only one instalation present.

I tried the 16 scenario also, even with all the damaged ships/planes I still easily spot 25+ subs around PH on the 1st turn.

M



asdicus -> RE: 1.5x and sightings (6/11/2005 7:45:48 PM)

I have just done a clean install of v1.52 on my portable pc and the results so far seem to show that the sub air spotting is still too potent.

Tested using v1.52 in scenario 15 - allied vs japanese ai on hard - historical first turn. This is a good test because there are loads of japanese subs within 3 hexes of pearl and the only flying search planes from pearl in the first turn are floatplanes from the ships. The allies are spotting nearly all or all the jap subs c 12-16 sighting reports with a few attacks as well. The floatplanes are flying air search not asw missions by default. Prior to v1.50 I would say maybe 3 or 4 sighting reports max was the average.

Testing air spotting is a subjective art and there is no definitive answer possible but it appears that the code changes in the new patch are not reducing sub sightings enough. My results are easy to replicate - just run scenario 15 historical setup as allies and see how many subs appear around pearl on the first turn.



myros -> RE: 1.5x and sightings (6/11/2005 8:39:04 PM)

Thanks Asdicus ... I was beginning to think I was the only one seeing this ;p

I made a fresh install just incase something was messed up on my end, then ran scen 15 and 16 with the same results, 20-25 sub sightings by the end of the day with about half of those with an attack on the sub also.

In my regular vs AI game I put 4 bomber sqds in Townsville on ASW 100% and spotted 10 or so subs hanging out around that area, ended up sinking about half of them with air attacks.

M



Mr.Frag -> RE: 1.5x and sightings (6/12/2005 5:45:04 AM)

Just to note, having 28 subs stacked near a major base with tons of PBY's is really not an effective test of search effectiveness. Turning it down to a level where they would not be spotted would make single subs 100% immune to detection.

If you don't wipe out those PBY's on turn 1 with lots of air base hits at PH, you are in for a rough ride.



myros -> RE: 1.5x and sightings (6/12/2005 9:13:21 AM)

Yes, totaly understand and agree. But as has been mentioned this still happens with the PBYs inactive at the start (IIRC they are all set to training 0) the only active search planes are on the BBs and CAs (and none of those are set to ASW, yet they sight and attack the subs with much glee ;p ... maybe one issue right there for scen 15, all BB and CA floatplanes should be set to training 0 also? I know a whole fleets worth of float planes werent in the air that day)

I have no idea how the game handles sightings but Id imagine that each sub rolls a seperate check so having 1 or 28 there shouldnt make a difference right? Im no realism junkie but seeing what appears to be a massively ahistoric result just doesnt 'feel' right, from doing a basic search I found 3 mentions of subs related to PH one of which was the 'mini-sub' sunk a few hours prior to the attack.

Just from observation on my ongoing game Id say that the 100% ASW setting is one of the issues here, from the PI to the Townsville area all you need is a couple long range units on 100% ASW and your pretty much guaranteed to sight every sub in range over a few days time frame. And you can keep units on 100% ASW for weeks at a time with no real hit to fatigue etc so perhaps it needs either a greater drop off on effectiveness as you get towards the 100% setting and/or a higher 'price' to staying on the 100% setting for long periods. Anyway, just some thoughts on it :)

M

(Also IMO the same applies to the regular search setting, I have 1 PBY sqd in manila and 1 in bataan both on 100% search and I have been able to track pretty much every task force going through the area for weeks, Im sure they miss some but when I sight 10+ TFs every day I start to wonder if they were really that good. Heck, maybe they were ... but everything Ive read seems to indicate that spotting ships was not an easy task, at least not as easy as I can do it :) )



pad152 -> RE: 1.5x and sightings (6/12/2005 9:43:39 AM)

quote:

Air search and air based ASW effectiveness were too effective


Well so far I like it![:)]

Playing Japan, twice now I've had a Dutch suface TF show up and trash an invasion TF and two mid ocean intercepts! This is the first time I've seen the AI pull off a mid-ocean intercept.



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