RE: New revision of my map - Request For Comments (Full Version)

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Andrew Brown -> RE: New revision of my map - Request For Comments (8/3/2005 9:49:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Purely cosmetic - but haven't we been trying to use the names as they were at the time - if so should we use Celebes versus Sulawesi ?




Yes, and I have already changed it to Celebes for this version (Don Bowen beat me about the head until I got around to changing it [:)].)



Jaws_slith -> RE: New revision of my map - Request For Comments (8/3/2005 9:59:57 AM)

Ok just bumped in. Read most of the post but didn’t found it. I just want to start a new game on your last map. Will it be compatible or must I wait until version 4.

Thx for you effort it really improves WitP[:)]




Andrew Brown -> RE: New revision of my map - Request For Comments (8/3/2005 10:03:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaws43

Ok just bumped in. Read most of the post but didn’t found it. I just want to start a new game on your last map. Will it be compatible or must I wait until version 4.

Thx for you effort it really improves WitP[:)]




If you want the new bases, you should wait. In fact it would be better for compatability reasons as well. It will still be 1-2 weeks before it's available though.

Andrew



Jaws_slith -> RE: New revision of my map - Request For Comments (8/3/2005 6:57:48 PM)

Thx for info. I will wait then.


Good luck with modding (can't wait[:)])



Lemurs! -> RE: New revision of my map - Request For Comments (8/3/2005 7:36:08 PM)

Andrew,

I appreciate the reasons for your transport decisions in Burma but i think you are not looking at all the data.
Adding a trail in Victoria point will allow the Japanese to move in 1 or 2 days... without that trail it takes 40 days or so.
There is at present no way other than ship to get any supplies into VP. Japan historically used this airfield before Singapore fell but a Japanese player cannot because you will have no supply.

Also, Burma is still impossible to get to from Siam. I realize it was difficult but this is now silly; I figure it will take Japan 40 days to get a force built up in Tavoy and then 60-80 more days to get to Moulmein.

There is also no connection between Bangkok and Tavoy.

Part of the problem seems to be the trail speed. It is way to low.
When the Japanese or Allies were marching at the kind of rate trail gets us in real life they were marching OFF trail on Guadacanal, Bougainville, New Guinea, etc.

Even in New Guinea marching on trail the Japanese averaged 8 miles a day and the Allies 6.

We do half or less on the trails in game.

I am just frustrated that your changes to make the map more historic is going to change the entire Pacific war.

Mike



Lord_Calidor -> RE: New revision of my map - Request For Comments (8/3/2005 10:42:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown
  • Moulmein is now - correctly - on the South side of the Salween river.


    • This is a welcomed change. As it stands currently, allies could easily defend Burma by bogging Japanese down in Moulmein. It's behind a river, connected by trails to nearest Japanese bases, and it's a jungle hex. All combined, if allies concentrate more assault values there, Japan will have very tough time dealing with auto shock attack, forts, jungle defense bonus and their own troops with fatigue in 60s.

    Related to this, problems with Tavoy and Victoria Point. Maybe you could add TWO road hexes between Bangkok-Singora rail line and these cities? For ex. draw a road from a rail at 27,40 to 26,39, and then to VP at 25,39. Similar thing can be done at Tavoy.



    Andrew Brown -> RE: New revision of my map - Request For Comments (8/4/2005 2:45:26 AM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Lemurs!

    Andrew,

    I appreciate the reasons for your transport decisions in Burma but i think you are not looking at all the data.
    Adding a trail in Victoria point will allow the Japanese to move in 1 or 2 days... without that trail it takes 40 days or so.


    Are you sure that it will take 40 days? My calculations are that it would take a couple of days to get to the adjacent hex from Bangkok, then 15 or so days to cross to Vic Pt. (infantry move through jungle at 4 miles/day). In the one PBEM game I have played, as Allies, the Japanese attacked Vic Point by the beginning of January - 3 weeks or so. That is slower than real life (10 days), but as it is "all or nothing" because of the way movement is calculated, I prefer to stick with the current map

    quote:

    There is at present no way other than ship to get any supplies into VP. Japan historically used this airfield before Singapore fell but a Japanese player cannot because you will have no supply.


    Again, are you sure? In my PBEM game Vic Point was captured by the Japanese before Singapore fell.

    Regarding supply - according to the manual the supply path to Vic Point on my map has a value of about 60 (from Bangkok. A value of less than 100 is required) which means that it can and will be supplied overland. Not very efficiently to be sure, but I consider that to be historic, at least until the railway was completed at the end of 1943.

    quote:

    Also, Burma is still impossible to get to from Siam. I realize it was difficult but this is now silly; I figure it will take Japan 40 days to get a force built up in Tavoy and then 60-80 more days to get to Moulmein.


    Again looking at my PBEM game, the Japanese had reached Moulmein by the beginning of January (presumably via Rahaeng as they did in real life) - earlier than they did in real life. They certainly started earlier than in reality, but it is not impossible to do by any means.

    Actually, I agree with you that in general the movement through Burma is too slow, and I have already changed the Rahaeng hex to road. This will allow LCUs to move from Rahaeng to Moulmein more quickly (infantry should take about 14-15 days or so, which I think is reasonably accurate - according to what I have read it did take the japanese about 2 weeks to travel this route in January 1942).

    quote:

    There is also no connection between Bangkok and Tavoy.


    I agree with you here - I think I should put a trail in, leading to the hex to the East of Tavoy, to make it easier to get to Tavoy from Bangkok

    quote:

    Part of the problem seems to be the trail speed. It is way to low.
    When the Japanese or Allies were marching at the kind of rate trail gets us in real life they were marching OFF trail on Guadacanal, Bougainville, New Guinea, etc.


    I agree - it is a nuisance, but that is what we are stuck with. The trick is getting movement and supply rates approximately realistic. In my view, the best way to judge these things is from feedback from anyone playing the game. Hopefully the changes I am making to Burma will improve things, but if there is a need for further adjustment I will do it.

    Andrew



    Andrew Brown -> RE: New revision of my map - Request For Comments (8/5/2005 2:29:23 AM)

    I have some screenshots of the new map in its current state. Hopefully it wil be available soon. I have made the low capacity railways less obtrusive and zebra-like. They are represented by black lines with small white dashes.

    The first screenshot is India - Some new bases have been added here, and the rail net modified a little.


    [image]local://upfiles/1061/14C60D65FA704C25AA6CCE1E78E75075.jpg[/image]



    Andrew Brown -> RE: New revision of my map - Request For Comments (8/5/2005 2:30:41 AM)

    China - A lot of modifications here. No new bases but the terrain and transport net is more accurately represented. This area needs some more playtesting.



    [image]local://upfiles/1061/3CB6022123DE41398199FF6070EE5F43.jpg[/image]



    Andrew Brown -> RE: New revision of my map - Request For Comments (8/5/2005 2:32:02 AM)

    Alaska/Canada - a couple of new bases here.

    [image]local://upfiles/1061/07E18BA8A2AB42218D9D190EA658A3D3.jpg[/image]



    Andrew Brown -> RE: New revision of my map - Request For Comments (8/5/2005 2:33:06 AM)

    Part of the DEI - not much done here except for a few more base name changes and minor road corrections in Borneo.

    [image]local://upfiles/1061/F4D2383DEA2A4F9C9D2BE858CE35173F.jpg[/image]



    Captain Cruft -> RE: New revision of my map - Request For Comments (8/5/2005 3:12:18 AM)

    Nice work :)

    I do like the low capacity rail lines, they look just like an old-fashioned Ordnance Survey map ...





    treespider -> RE: New revision of my map - Request For Comments (8/5/2005 3:15:32 AM)


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

    Nice work :)

    I do like the low capacity rail lines, they look just like an old-fashioned Ordnance Survey map ...






    [;)][;)]









    [image]local://upfiles/15342/2514F2C750D04D2E89E15D6794CB86C9.jpg[/image]



    Tanaka -> RE: New revision of my map - Request For Comments (8/5/2005 3:41:43 AM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

    I have some screenshots of the new map in its current state. Hopefully it wil be available soon. I have made the low capacity railways less obtrusive and zebra-like. They are represented by black lines with small white dashes.

    The first screenshot is India - Some new bases have been added here, and the rail net modified a little.


    [image]local://upfiles/1061/14C60D65FA704C25AA6CCE1E78E75075.jpg[/image]


    Hate to be the devils advocate because I love your work so much and i dont want to seem picky...

    ...but would it be possible to get a version where the low capacity rail looks like road?

    It just doesnt feel right to me and others may feel the same...[sm=00000947.gif]



    treespider -> RE: New revision of my map - Request For Comments (8/5/2005 3:50:54 AM)

    quote:

    ...but would it be possible to get a version where the low capacity rail looks like road?


    I prefer the dashed line low capacity rail for AAR report purposes. Even if in game terms its only a road.



    bradfordkay -> RE: New revision of my map - Request For Comments (8/5/2005 7:43:38 AM)

    " I do like the low capacity rail lines, they look just like an old-fashioned Ordnance Survey map ... "


    You might notice that on the Ordnance Survey map that Trespider provided the dashed railroad line is an unfinished RR (marked "suspended"). This is why I agree with Tanaka when he posts a dislike of the dashed line for low capacity RR: generally dashed lines representing railroads have been used for unfinished ones. It's no big deal to me either way, but my preference is to not have a dashed line represent a RR.



    treespider -> RE: New revision of my map - Request For Comments (8/5/2005 7:45:41 AM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

    " I do like the low capacity rail lines, they look just like an old-fashioned Ordnance Survey map ... "


    You might notice that on the Ordnance Survey map that Trespider provided the dashed railroad line is an unfinished RR (marked "suspended"). This is why I agree with Tanaka when he posts a dislike of the dashed line for low capacity RR: generally dashed lines representing railroads have been used for unfinished ones. It's no big deal to me either way, but my preference is to not have a dashed line represent a RR.



    But also note the Dashed branch road as compared to the Solid Trunk road on the map photo

    [image][/image]

    [image]local://upfiles/15342/CE677CB12404490C8106A542D419A00B.jpg[/image]



    bradfordkay -> RE: New revision of my map - Request For Comments (8/5/2005 7:50:36 AM)

    For roads, dashed lines have normally represented unimproved roads (dirt, gravel, etc), but for railroads they have normally (almost universally) represented unfinished railroads. It's just going to affect old map freaks like me...


    EDIT:
    I note that on that map the dashed roads are secondary roads. But you might note that the dashed railroads are all either unfinished or dismantled.



    treespider -> RE: New revision of my map - Request For Comments (8/5/2005 7:52:32 AM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

    For roads, dashed lines have normally represented unimproved roads (dirt, gravel, etc), but for railroads they have normally (almost universally) represented unfinished railroads. It's just going to affect old map freaks like me...


    But then you would agree that a low capacity rail line should not be represented by a road symbol even though the effects are the same.

    And a railine is generally represented by a crosshatched line as opposed to a solid black line as is our case.

    I think AB's solutuion is a very reasonable compromise.



    bradfordkay -> RE: New revision of my map - Request For Comments (8/5/2005 7:58:44 AM)

    As I said, it's not that big a deal. I'll still use Andrew's map no matter how he decides to portray the light duty railroads. I was just pointing out a nearly universal cartographic convention because I have always been a map freak. My friends say that I have an atlas for a brain... I blame it on all the wargames I played over the years (though I also love to study maps in planning vacations).



    treespider -> RE: New revision of my map - Request For Comments (8/5/2005 8:00:13 AM)

    quote:

    EDIT:
    I note that on that map the dashed roads are secondary roads. But you might note that the dashed railroads are all either unfinished or dismantled.


    If you were to see the rest of the China maps you would note that alot of the china rail net was damaged/unfinished/dismantled.



    Andrew Brown -> RE: New revision of my map - Request For Comments (8/5/2005 8:39:10 AM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

    As I said, it's not that big a deal. I'll still use Andrew's map no matter how he decides to portray the light duty railroads. I was just pointing out a nearly universal cartographic convention because I have always been a map freak. My friends say that I have an atlas for a brain... I blame it on all the wargames I played over the years (though I also love to study maps in planning vacations).


    What would you suggest as an alternative, besides using the "road" symbol?



    bradfordkay -> RE: New revision of my map - Request For Comments (8/5/2005 8:49:36 AM)

    Andrew, I wouldn't want you to put in too much work just to satisfy an old map freak.

    The best representation would be a black line with single hashmarks to denote the high capacity line and a black line with alternating side hashmarks to denote the low capacity line. The next best would be a black line with single hashmarks to denote the high capacity line and a black line with no hashmarks for the low capacity line.

    However, all that is too much work for a volunteer such as yourself, who has given so much to those of us who love this game, so I'll accept whatever you decide to do (and continue to encourage all WITP players to use your maps).



    LargeSlowTarget -> RE: New revision of my map - Request For Comments (8/5/2005 11:30:04 AM)

    Don't know how much work it is or whether it can be done at all - but what about thick black lines for high capacity and thin black lines for low capacity?



    m10bob -> RE: New revision of my map - Request For Comments (8/5/2005 1:20:04 PM)

    Since I'm too lazy to do paper record-keeping,I would like a little wrench (or something) next to the repair yards, if possible...I love your maps and would be happy if they stayed as is, as well............[:)]



    Jaws_slith -> RE: New revision of my map - Request For Comments (8/5/2005 2:43:28 PM)

    My 2 cents.

    Since the whole map is about solid colours I prefer also a solid colour for the low capacity road. Thick and thin would be an option but also a colour between black (road/railroad) and yellow (dirt track). Grey would be an option since most road in WW2 were out of gravel/ pabble.

    The symbols on the maps are not relevant since the ww2 map is a completely different format.

    Anyway.. about taste you can not discus[;)]




    treespider -> RE: New revision of my map - Request For Comments (8/5/2005 3:26:16 PM)


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Jaws43

    My 2 cents.

    Since the whole map is about solid colours I prefer also a solid colour for the low capacity road. Thick and thin would be an option but also a colour between black (road/railroad) and yellow (dirt track). Grey would be an option since most road in WW2 were out of gravel/ pabble.

    The symbols on the maps are not relevant since the ww2 map is a completely different format.

    Anyway.. about taste you can not discus[;)]




    It's not about the low-capacity road but railroad. In an ideal world crosshatching would be used for the railroads, but I do not think that that is possible with the graphics the way thet are.

    Whatever AB comes up with it will still be better than the "official" map in IMHO....

    We are not worthy[&o][&o][&o][&o]



    Cap Mandrake -> RE: New revision of my map - Request For Comments (8/5/2005 8:48:13 PM)

    I think it looks pretty damn good. Cross-hatching denoting railroads would be cool, but certainly a HUGE amount of work. India always seemed weak on the original map, just a couple of bases in a land with hundreds of millions of people?? This map gives some strategic importance to rail junctions and hubs.

    Destrictible bridges would be nice [;)] [:)]



    n818af -> My two cents regarding Hong Kong hex (8/5/2005 11:47:37 PM)

    Hi,

    As a resident of Hong Kong, please let me get in my two cents worth regarding this hex. This is absolutely an urban hex, no doubt. However, the river should not be removed because it exists. It is called Shenzhen River, it is the border separating Hong Kong and China, and still is today.
    It is not as wide as the Strait of Johar in Singapore, but it could be an obstacle for the Japanese if properly defended. (Historically it was not defended along the border)
    Also consider the fact that Hong Kong Island (the center of HK) has no connection to the mainland. It took several attempts (days) for the japs to land on the island successfully.



    treespider -> RE: My two cents regarding Hong Kong hex (8/6/2005 12:02:36 AM)


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: n818af

    Hi,

    As a resident of Hong Kong, please let me get in my two cents worth regarding this hex. This is absolutely an urban hex, no doubt. However, the river should not be removed because it exists. It is called Shenzhen River, it is the border separating Hong Kong and China, and still is today.
    It is not as wide as the Strait of Johar in Singapore, but it could be an obstacle for the Japanese if properly defended. (Historically it was not defended along the border)
    Also consider the fact that Hong Kong Island (the center of HK) has no connection to the mainland. It took several attempts (days) for the japs to land on the island successfully.


    I think the intent here is to strike a balance btw the game engine and history.

    There are hundreds of rivers that were used as obstacles IRL that are not represented on the map.



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