Extremely confused by reports (Full Version)

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Beorn -> Extremely confused by reports (7/2/2005 9:28:46 PM)

I really like this game, but to progress any further, I need a much better understanding of the reports I am getting, because it is turning my actions into wild guesswork.

It appears to me that I start one month with a stockpile of 8 units of luxuries, produce 97, and trade 36. (I build no troops or city developments.) I end up the next month with 8 units of luxuries. [&:]

And, to make it worse, the reports I am reading are fogging my mind further rather than helping me.

This problem applies to $ and all resources, but I'm going to islolate just one for my example. I am trying to follow the numbers for luxuries.

Looking at development advisor screen: A province-by-province count of luxuries being produced shows 97. However, when I look at the gray box accounting in the bottom right, it says +11 over an 8. Well, 8 is my stockpile, but what is +11. Hovering over the +11 it says "resources produced by the nation." That makes no sense to me -- I am producing 97 of these suckers.

Okay, so I switch to my economic advisor screen and go to the trade tab. Here I count and see that I am trading 36 luxuires (That leaves me a whopping 61 for Britain, right?) However, when I look at the gray box accounting in the bottom right, it says +94 over 8. The 8 is consistent, my stockpile, but what is +94??? The other screen said that my nation was producing +11, my double-checked arithmetic shows 97, so what is this +94. (At least +94 is close enough to 97, so as not to make too much difference to gameplay, but it is not reassuring.)

So I end my turn.

I see that my actual total income by province totals 101 luxuries.
I see that I exported 33 with one stolen.
(So far, so good. A little randomization makes sense.)
Then I see the report for Britain: 13 income, 21 total... How the heck did that happen? Obviously, my income is many times higher than that! Isn't it?

I then look at the National Production Adjustment Table:
Developments: 23
Nation's Morale: 2
Taxes: -14
Feudal -2
Waste -1
I am now waist deep in problems.
* First, I do not know if this is explaining the oddness of the above numbers, or this is a further adjustment of the above numbers.
* Second, I don't really know what developments means. I did not develop any banks or walls or units last term. And this is a positive number anyway, so it cannot be an expenditure. Could it mean that this is a new number for how many luxuries I made last month? I hope not, because no arithmetic I see could lead to 23 as the number.
* However, if these numbers are added, you get 8...

Which is, indeed, once again my stockpile.

I go back to the advisor screens and see:
Development advisor now shows +19 over 8 in the gray sqares.
Trade advisor now shows +96 over 8 in the gray squares

Somehow, I have started with 8 units of luxuries, produced something like 97 or 101, traded somethng between 33 and 36, and ended up with 8, or so it appears to me. [X(]

Honestly, I do not know whether I am finding bugs in reporting, bugs in the game arithmetic, or bugs in my own thinking -- but if the game is operating correctly, I respectfully give my opinion that the information is not being communicated clearly enough.









Franz von G -> RE: Extremely confused by reports (7/2/2005 9:57:23 PM)

another question for the luxury resource..
on the manual, page 57
"The number of times that a nation is able to satisfy its appetite for these resources affects its national
morale and glory"

number of times..during what? a turn? a year? a game?
thanks [;)]



bluemonday -> RE: Extremely confused by reports (7/2/2005 10:01:32 PM)

To partially answer the two questions:

Beorn: your nation is consuming luxuries. Franz, the "number of times" is per single turn. So your nation may raise its morale by consuming multiples of its luxury requirement. Beorn, under Development you should see your nation is consuming x textiles, x wine, and x luxuries. Note the number of luxuries consumed per turn. I do not see that in the calculations.



Uncle_Joe -> RE: Extremely confused by reports (7/2/2005 10:02:47 PM)

I'm in the same boat. I havent been able to work through the numbers yet either. Finally, I just decided to try and 'feel' my way through it although I dont find that as satisfying as actually knowing what I'm adjusting and seeing in various ways.

As I posted elsewhere, some of the issue is that you are seeing Net on some screens and Gross on others. Also, some of the numbers displayed seem to take into account some modifiers (like Waste) while others dont.

All in all, I am waiting for the actual detailed econ primer that is being worked on and possible a patch to change the way the info is displayed. Otherwise, I might go mad trying to figure it out! [;)]



Banquet -> RE: Extremely confused by reports (7/2/2005 11:29:35 PM)

I'm confused by these reports as well..

In the bottom menu bar it says I'm losing 31 gold a month, yet in the trade window it shows me gaining 431 gold a month.. this is presumably some sort of gross figure but I still can't work it out.. if I add up the income of all my provinces, merchants and other trades my gross income should only be about 370?

I wish there was an overall summary screen that showed everything, with all modifiers applied.

Other than that, though, I think of getting the hang of things. Very interesting gameplay.. glad I was impulsive and bought it [:)]



Beorn -> RE: Extremely confused by reports (7/3/2005 4:16:44 AM)

quote:

Beorn: your nation is consuming luxuries.
Yes, that is true. The screen says I my people are consuming 6 units of luxuries. I believe that that means the nation as a whole consumes 6 luxuries per month. However, this does not come close to explaining the discrpency.

8 (stockpiles)+ 97 (produced) - 36 (traded) - 6 (consumed) does not even approximately equal 8.

The only way that would get me even close would be if each province consumed 6 luxuries -- but that would make no sense. Gibralter cannot possibly be consuming the same amount as London! That 6 has to be a national number.

In any case, being left to make crazy, blind guesses like this is... well, crazy.

I don't mean to sound overly critical about an otherwise wonderful game, but any ruler, before making decision for the future, is going to inisist on a straight forward accounting for what happened in the past:

We had this amount in stock
We produced this amount
We traded this amount
We consumed this amount
We lost this amount to theft
We lost this amount to our feudal system
We gained or lost these other amounts in these specific ways
The bottom line, the current stock, is the sum of the above numbers

I really think that this kind of chart should appear monthly.

It doesn't bother me a bit that things like cost of trade routes of level of waste or other unpredictable things are rather opaque to the player. That's realistic. But there is no realism at all in not knowing where last month's commodities ended up.



bluemonday -> RE: Extremely confused by reports (7/3/2005 8:34:43 AM)

I agree with your complaints about this. The summary screens need to be rationalized. For example: when looking at the resource totals under the Trade screen it is different from the resource totals shown in the Development screen (as you pointed out above - however the totals in the Development screen do add up for me). Why do the numbers change for some but not others? This needs to be explained. I can't wait for that "economic primer" that someone is writing. I have a lot of questions.



Equinox -> RE: Extremely confused by reports (7/3/2005 11:31:14 AM)

The "6" luxiuries is a base figure. Your people will consume more than that if they are available. According to rule 7.1.3, they should use up to 48. Im not sure this makes the math work out for you, but it does get us a little closer.




Beorn -> RE: Extremely confused by reports (7/3/2005 2:00:23 PM)

quote:

The "6" luxiuries is a base figure. Your people will consume more than that if they are available. According to rule 7.1.3, they should use up to 48. Im not sure this makes the math work out for you, but it does get us a little closer.
Thanks! That may be the key piece right there.



Beorn -> RE: Extremely confused by reports (7/3/2005 6:18:31 PM)

The more I look at 7.1.3, the less sense this makes:

quote:


"Luxury and Textile Conumption
Nations will attempt to consume Wine, Spice, and Luxuries each turn. They will also attempt to consume textiles in excess of 100. The base amount of each resource that a nation desires to consume is equal to the total population divided by 10. A nation attempts to consume this base amount of each resource and, if possible, will consume twice this amount if sufficient levels of the resource are available.

Nations, therefore, will be successful in consuming resources each turn some number of times between 0 and 8. For instance, a nation of poplulation 100 desires to consume 10 wine, 10 spices and 10 luxuries, if these are available. The number of times that a nation is able to satisfy its appetitie for these resources affects its national morale and glory."


Doesn't this mean that Britain, with a population of 61, will consume 6 luxuries twice for a total of 12? How do you get to 48?

(As I read it, the people want:
6 luxuries, and then another 6 luxuries
6 wine and then another 6 wine
6 speices, and then another 6 spices
6 textiles (if over 100 available) and then another 6 textiles

So I am back to square one:
8 (stockpiles)+ 97 (produced) - 36 (traded) - 12 (consumed) does not even approximately equal 8.



sol_invictus -> RE: Extremely confused by reports (7/3/2005 6:22:58 PM)

I think it is futile to try to fathom the mind of fickle consumers and their ever changing patterns of consumption.[;)] Guess we have to wait for the Econ Primer.



bluemonday -> RE: Extremely confused by reports (7/3/2005 6:26:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Beorn
Doesn't this mean that Britain, with a population of 61, will consume 6 luxuries twice for a total of 12? How do you get to 48?

The way I read that section, the population will attempt to consume each of those things up to eight times.

6 luxuries + 6 spices + 6 wine

still have those goods available? Ok ...

another 6 luxuries + 6 spices + 6 wine

That could happen up to 8 times, meaning 48 of each is consumed.



Beorn -> RE: Extremely confused by reports (7/3/2005 6:46:59 PM)

:) You may well be right, but for me the key word is "therefore."

You have 4 goods each asked for twice, "therefore" 8 total times.

My gut tells me that the game has been coded your way, regardless of the original intent or the manual wording.

However, I am still troubled that, when I check my morale report I see that I got +50 for "luxuries" that month. (Ugh! What does the word luxuries mean? Is this generic for the four kinds of luxuries: luxuries, wine, textiles, and spices? Or does it mean specifically luxuries? Only the former makes any sense, because otherwise I shoud also get morale for wine and spices, which I also provided.) If this mean that I had provided spices 8 times, then, according to the chart, I should get +150 added to moral.

This is extremely difficult to sort out, but I believe that when they take a close look at it, they will find that part of the problem is a bug which was hidden from beta testers by the density of the directions.



Uncle_Joe -> RE: Extremely confused by reports (7/3/2005 6:51:52 PM)

Yep, I've never figured it out either so it was kind of tough to see if there was a bug or something that just wasnt understood.

One other thing...are you accounting for Waste? Look at the Production tab and look at waste. I'll betcha there is a large number there that you arent adding in to your calculations. I find that Waste is exceeding high on Luxuries and Textiles (two of the most valuable commodities IMO).



Beorn -> RE: Extremely confused by reports (7/3/2005 7:04:41 PM)

I see the following numbers under adjustments in my most recent month:

Developments 23
National morale 2
Population 0
Taxes -14
Feudal -2
Waste -1

I don't really understand this information:
* My luxuries are being taken away by someone as tax? I thought I was the taxing authority.
* Developments? What does this mean? It is a positive number?
* Where do all these number fit in? I don't know whether this explains the other numbers, or comes on top of the other numbers.

However, waste is only minus one, and the whole list comes out to a net positive number, so it would not seem to explain the disappearance of all those luxuries.



bluemonday -> RE: Extremely confused by reports (7/3/2005 7:15:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Beorn
* My luxuries are being taken away by someone as tax? I thought I was the taxing authority.
* Developments? What does this mean? It is a positive number?
* Where do all these number fit in? I don't know whether this explains the other numbers, or comes on top of the other numbers.

* I believe the penalty to luxuries by tax is simply a penalty for having a high tax rate. The higher the tax rate the more inefficient the economy. How supply-side!
* Again, I believe this is a bonus given by having more developments.
* I think these are after the raw production numbers. Production + imports - exports, then these modifiers. The numbers seem to add/subtract as you go down the screen. It works out for me as France, or at least it has so far.



Uncle_Joe -> RE: Extremely confused by reports (7/3/2005 7:16:36 PM)

I dont know them all, but I believe 'Taxes' is the penalty incurred to production from your current tax rate. Same for Feudal. I think 'Developments' is a summary of the bonuses applied due to the province developments you have (like Farms, Factories or whatever). I have no idea if they are already figured in and this is just telling you what they are or not.

If Waste is only -1, then I'm back to square on this one (where I often end up when trying to figure it out...)

I'm thinking that bluemonday is correct in that your Pop will try and consume between 0-8 x their regular quantity of luxury goods and with a Pop of 61, could mean up to 48. But I dont have any idea how that relates to what you gain in Morale, Glory or why is always displays at +150 when I never seem to get 150 even when I'm inundated with luxury goods.



bluemonday -> RE: Extremely confused by reports (7/3/2005 7:33:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Beorn
You have 4 goods each asked for twice, "therefore" 8 total times.

Are there four goods? If you look at what you quoted, that's only three: wine, spices, and luxuries. Note the title of what you quoted: Textiles AND Luxuries. I think wine/spice/luxuries are what affect the morale for this calculation.

Look at the chart on page 57:

"Number of times Demand for Luxuries is Satisfied"

In the "6" column the bonus to Morale is +50. Isn't that what you said you were getting as the Morale bonus? That shows pretty clearly that you're consuming 36 Luxuries: 6 * 6.



Beorn -> RE: Extremely confused by reports (7/3/2005 8:48:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bluemonday
Are there four goods? If you look at what you quoted, that's only three: wine, spices, and luxuries.
Not really sure I'm following you.

The first two sentences in the rules say
quote:

Nations will attempt to consume Wine, Spice, and Luxuries each turn. They will also attempt to consume textiles in excess of 100.
That seems like four goods.

Then the rules say:
quote:

The base amount of each resource that a nation desires to consume is equal to the total population divided by 10. A nation attempts to consume this base amount of each resource and, if possible, will consume twice this amount if sufficient levels of the resource are available.
So it sounds as if the ceiling is twice six.

Sorry if I sound argumentative -- that's not my purpose at all. The whole thing just doesn't make sense to me. [:(]



bluemonday -> RE: Extremely confused by reports (7/3/2005 9:08:19 PM)

I re-read the rules, and then your posts again, and I think your interpretation of the rules is correct. Furthermore, I think the game is calculating things correctly - I have always been short of textiles, consequently my max National Morale bonus for Luxuries has been +50 (6x) which reflects 2x each of the other three commodities.



willgamer -> RE: Extremely confused by reports (7/3/2005 10:16:35 PM)

quote:

my max National Morale bonus for Luxuries has been +50 (6x) which reflects 2x each of the other three commodities.


this sounds about right... the best clarification yet. [&o]

Clearly part of the problem is the over burdening of the word luxury. It's used at least 3, and probably more, ways. In Labor Allocation we see that "Luxury = Spices + Luxury". So Luxury the trade item, Luxury the labor allocation and Luxury the morale bonus all very different inclusiveness. [X(]

Simply, I think the manual could have used more professional technical writing. Even though it's 94 pages, for a game this complex, that scales down to about the 6 page flyer that comes with an ordinary RTS. Before you even worry about the hidden mechanics, there are even many screens that are woefully under explained. [:(]

OTOH, 3 cheers for a game that's deep enough to provoke this complaining. [:D]



Beorn -> RE: Extremely confused by reports (7/3/2005 11:11:30 PM)

I agree with you on all counts, willgamer.



bluemonday -> RE: Extremely confused by reports (7/3/2005 11:47:45 PM)

Another thing that is confusing me about the Luxuries: see the below screenshot. The game is telling me my population will consume 22 wine, 22 spice, and 22 luxuries, but no textiles and that this will add +150 to my National Morale. Yet according to the manual, the +150 morale bonus is only gained by consuming eight multiples of these commodities. I am not consuming any textiles at all, yet I'm going to get +150 for this? And is that "22" number the final multiple? Does that mean it is two multiples of 11, which is the base?

[image]local://upfiles/17069/984AB584807C45608422F1939645E999.jpg[/image]



willgamer -> RE: Extremely confused by reports (7/4/2005 12:44:53 AM)

was that on turn 1 or later? (turn 1 data seems especially iffy...)...



bluemonday -> RE: Extremely confused by reports (7/4/2005 12:46:58 AM)

No, that's on turn 5 or 6 I believe.



Beorn -> RE: Extremely confused by reports (7/4/2005 3:01:55 AM)

Wow, I have no idea what's up with that!



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