List of things I have seen so far (Full Version)

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Beorn -> List of things I have seen so far (7/5/2005 5:11:40 PM)

7.4.3 says that low levels of roads limit other developments. Development beyond the road development of a city take more labor to complete. The increase is double for developments one level greater than the level of roads, triple for developments two levels greater... Apparently, it is time not labor that is increased.

The manual seems to say under 7.1 that you cannot stockpile more than 50 units of labor, yet it appears that the limit is much higher.

The manual does not make clear what actions a nation can take against privateers.

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In general, the gray boxes accounting for total commodities being produced and stockpiled in the nation are very confusing or else wrong. Theses numbers on the development advisor page do not agree with the numbers on the economic advisor page, and neither agrees with a summing province-by-province.

I think there is something going basically wrong here. I can be produce more than 80+ luxuries in my provinces, trade 35, and end up with none for my own people -- and this is clearly not a matter of waste or being stolen. As far as I am concerned, this is the #1 game problem at the moment.

Money, similarly, does not seem to add up.

Bottom line here, I see no problem with fogginess predicting what will happen in the future, but
1) your advisor predictions should be clear and agree with what is visibly being done in the provinces
2) the accounting for what happened in the previous month really needs to be a lot more clear, such that a chart shows:
==>starting stockpile
==>produced
==>traded
==>consumed
==>wasted
etc, etc
==>new stockpile

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I am very foggy as to the making of textiles from wool and cotton
* as to what city quality inherently links up with the production of textiles
* as to what city development improves the production of textiles
* as to what good a stockpile of wool (or cotton) does you when it seems that you just get a few textiles and a lot of wool together, with all the extra wool permanently left over.

7.1.2 says that cotton and wool are converted to textiles by trade labor in provinces. Each province can convert an amount equal to its population x its trade labor / 50. I don't really understand what "trade labor" is. I mean, "labor" is an untradable commodity, but I don't see what "trade labor" is.

Also, each level of factory increases the output of labor by 50% and the output of manufactured good -- iron and luxuries -- by 10% Each level of farms increases the output of agricultural commodities -- horses, food, timber(!), wool, cotton, and wine by 10%

But how about the rate of textile production? It seems like it is the agricultural slider that affects textile production, but textiles are not listed as being increased by farms, which makes intuitive sense.

It's all pretty murky to me.

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When a trade route is broken, I wish that the specific trade were printed out (6 Iron for 6 Textiles, etc.)

When a trade route is broken, I wish that the trade were referred to by province name rather than city, since that is the way the trade screen is organized.

I wish it were clear when a trade route is permanently gone, and when it is only interrupted. The wording is not intuitive. I think by "broken" you mean "interrupted."

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Meaning of difficulty levels is not in the manual



ericbabe -> RE: List of things I have seen so far (7/5/2005 7:33:47 PM)

With the luxuries, it's probably the case that your people are simply consuming them, which is what luxuries are for.

I'd like to add in first or second patch a table that shows gross to net for each resource, and also a popup tooltip that gives gross to net breakdown when right mouse button on resource icons.



Beorn -> RE: List of things I have seen so far (7/5/2005 9:01:38 PM)

quote:

With the luxuries, it's probably the case that your people are simply consuming them, which is what luxuries are for.

That portion of the rules is another thing that needs clarification:
quote:

The base amount of each resource that a nation desires to consume is equal to the total population divided by 10. A nation attempts to consume this base amount of each resource and, if possible, will consume twice this amount if sufficient levels of the resource are available.
In the case of England early in the balanced scenerio, which is what I was playing, this would mean twice six -- a ceiling of twelve. But way more than twelve are disappearing.

That aside, I am not sure that consumption is what is going on in this case. I am receiving messages that my people will probably consume 0 wine, 6 spices, and 0 textiles. And that is consistent with the glory and morale results I am getting. I am pretty sure that in this case, my people are consuming no luxuries at all.



jchastain -> RE: List of things I have seen so far (7/5/2005 9:12:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Beorn

quote:

With the luxuries, it's probably the case that your people are simply consuming them, which is what luxuries are for.

That portion of the rules is another thing that needs clarification:
quote:

The base amount of each resource that a nation desires to consume is equal to the total population divided by 10. A nation attempts to consume this base amount of each resource and, if possible, will consume twice this amount if sufficient levels of the resource are available.
In the case of England early in the balanced scenerio, which is what I was playing, this would mean twice six -- a ceiling of twelve. But way more than twelve are disappearing.

That aside, I am not sure that consumption is what is going on in this case. I am receiving messages that my people will probably consume 0 wine, 6 spices, and 0 textiles. And that is consistent with the glory and morale results I am getting. I am pretty sure that in this case, my people are consuming no luxuries at all.


As was discussed in another thread, I think the "twice" language was an example and not a ceiling. That chart on page 57 clearly indicates the "number of times demand for luxeries is satisfied" can be as high as 8. My only real question is whether a nation that has enough wine for 2 consumptions and enough spice and luxeries for 6 will consume only 2 of each or if they will consume the additional spice and luxeries even though they do not have additional wine. I suppose I could play around with the game to determine the answer, but I haven't bothered. But if the likely answer is true that they satisfy the demand of each commodity seperately and can consume more of one thing than another, then it raises the question of who cares if you are missing something since what you do produce in quantity can compensate.



Beorn -> RE: List of things I have seen so far (7/5/2005 9:26:52 PM)

quote:

As was discussed in another thread, I think the "twice" language was an example and not a ceiling. That chart on page 57 clearly indicates the "number of times demand for luxeries is satisfied" can be as high as 8.
Just goes to show how necessary a clarification of this rule is.

To me, it is almost certain that the chart goes as high as eight because there are 4 commodities (wine, luxuries, spices and textiles >100) at a ceiling of 2 each.

Not really trying to be argumentative here, but rather demonstrate the extent to which the rule, as written, is unclear even to people willing to study it carefully. [:)]



jchastain -> RE: List of things I have seen so far (7/5/2005 9:28:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Beorn

quote:

As was discussed in another thread, I think the "twice" language was an example and not a ceiling. That chart on page 57 clearly indicates the "number of times demand for luxeries is satisfied" can be as high as 8.
Just goes to show how necessary a clarification of this rule is.

To me, it is almost certain that the chart goes as high as eight because there are 4 commodities (wine, luxuries, spices and textiles >100) at a ceiling of 2 each.

Not really trying to be argumentative here, but rather demonstrate the extent to which the rule, as written, is unclear even to people willing to study it carefully. [:)]


Good point. I hadn't even considered that possibility.



ericbabe -> RE: List of things I have seen so far (7/6/2005 12:37:16 AM)

quote:

In the case of England early in the balanced scenerio, which is what I was playing, this would mean twice six -- a ceiling of twelve. But way more than twelve are disappearing.


There is both a bug and a manual errata at work here! We tweaked the consumption amounts so that your people try to consume PopulationLevel/10+3 of each sort of luxuries to qualify for the first two levels -- this is very much as is reported in the manual and represented in the development advisor. But we also added a third level of consumption: if you have enough to consume the first two levels and still enough to consume 5x(PopulationLevel/10+3) then you get three points for the consumption. The points are capped at the maximum value, though looking over the source I just found a bug that caps them just a bit below where they should be... and I just fixed the bug.



Beorn -> RE: List of things I have seen so far (7/6/2005 3:36:14 AM)

Am I understanding correctly?

If the British already consume 6 luxuries twice, and have 30 luxuries remaining, they will consume those 30 as well?

If so, that would explain very well what I was observing, but it sure does raise the bar for certain city developments.

Stock + production - trade - waste - 42 would need to leave enough to pay, say 18 luxuiries towards a court or culture development.




jchastain -> RE: List of things I have seen so far (7/6/2005 4:20:20 AM)

Agreed. I understand the need to reduce excess stockpiles, but making the third consumption require 5x the resources makes it very expensive and likely to leave stockpiles unreasonably low. Perhaps a better approach might be that if a nation has consumed twice and still have at least 10x(PopulationLevel/10+3), then it consumes 5x(PopulationLevel/10+3). In other words, if you have enough to consume that third point and still have that much left, then bleed it out of the economy. Otherwise, let the player maintain a reasonable stockpile.

The same might be said for food. Several times I was unable to build high level farms simply because I did not have enough food in reserve despite the fact that I was producing extra. It would be nice for it to build a surplus of at least the amount needed to promote a player's highest two farm before it begins handing it out freebies to build the population.



TheOldMan -> Textile Production (7/23/2005 2:27:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Beorn
I am very foggy as to the making of textiles from wool and cotton
* as to what city quality inherently links up with the production of textiles
* as to what city development improves the production of textiles
* as to what good a stockpile of wool (or cotton) does you when it seems that you just get a few textiles and a lot of wool together, with all the extra wool permanently left over.

7.1.2 says that cotton and wool are converted to textiles by trade labor in provinces. Each province can convert an amount equal to its population x its trade labor / 50. I don't really understand what "trade labor" is. I mean, "labor" is an untradable commodity, but I don't see what "trade labor" is.

Also, each level of factory increases the output of labor by 50% and the output of manufactured good -- iron and luxuries -- by 10% Each level of farms increases the output of agricultural commodities -- horses, food, timber(!), wool, cotton, and wine by 10%

But how about the rate of textile production? It seems like it is the agricultural slider that affects textile production, but textiles are not listed as being increased by farms, which makes intuitive sense.

It's all pretty murky to me.

I'm new to the game, and trying to learn how to maximize economic output. Like Beorn, I'm having difficulty mastering the Textiles industry.

7.1.2 (Tradable Resources) says that Wool and Cotton "are converted to Textiles by Trade Labor in provinces. Each province can convert an amount equal to its Population x its Trade Labor/50."

8.2.1 (Labor Allocation) says that allocating workers to "Textiles" increases Cotton, Wool, and Textile production from Cotton and Wool.

Does the "Trade Labor" in 7.1.2 refer to the workers allocated to Labor, or to Textiles, or something else?

Are Cotton and Wool converted to Textiles in (a) every province, (b) only provinces that produce Cotton/Wool or receive Cotton/Wool by trade, (c) only provinces with workers allocated to Labor, (d) only provinces with workers allocated to Textiles, (e) none of the above?
[&:]



Ralegh -> RE: Textile Production (7/23/2005 6:02:22 PM)


Ralegh on Textiles

The manual is confusing on this - partly because it seems to give us extra information we don't get for other goods, and partly because it just ain't clear.

Each province has independant values for the production of wool, cotton and textiles. Wool values are 0, 1 or 2 (except for Flanders which is a 4). Cotton is much scarcer, mainly being produced in North Africa (some 1s and 2s, and a 6 and 8 in Egypt). Textile capability is well spread, with half the provinces a 1 and half a 2 - everyone can produce Textiles - (plus Picardy as a 3).

The more labour you allocate to "textiles", the more of each of these is produced. Labour allocated to other areas does not help at all. Provinces that do not put any people to work on textiles do not produce textiles.

Note that the total population of the province has a very large effect on textile production (as opposed to some others where it is a smaller effect).

Note that if the textiles for a province says +6, the national stock may have gone up +12. I dunno why.

Wool and cotton are affected by FARMS; Textiles are affected by FACTORIES.

Some provinces produce textiles, but do not produce much if any wool or cotton (for example, Krakow and Normandy are both 0 0 2 provinces). If lots of people work on textiles in these provinces, they will be drawing down on the national stockpile of these products to produce the textiles. This is more likely to happen in provinces with lots of factories and few farms.

In general, the game produces many more wool and cotton than countries can convert, and we end up with all players having large surpluses. The AI is willing to trade for the stuff anyway (darned if I know why), so trade off lots of wool for stuff you actually need.

I had a theory that if you had lots of wool and lots of cotton, people would be more productive of textiles, giving some impetus to the 2 being seperate things in the game. I have not been able to prove this to my satisfaction, however - and accordingly, I currently think that these are completely interchangable within the game system, and can be thought of as one resource.


Finally:
- textiles suffer more from waste than anything else - the 90% loss rate cuts in much earlier. That means you need to work harder to get 'em. [I often do lots of manually trading to collect extra textiles.]
- textiles have a special barrier - textiles produced that would put your stockpile over 100 are consumed by the population for no benefit to you. If your textiles gets over about 80 spend em [unless you are saving up for something that costs 100] - better to have the build order sitting in a queue than to lose textiles to the darn populace!



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