economy reports make no sense (Full Version)

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superdave56 -> economy reports make no sense (7/6/2005 4:40:47 AM)

First of all, I want to thank the devs. This is a very ambitious project and I'm sure a lot of blood, sweat and tears went into it. I think if some of the issues that are bothering me and I'm sure a lot of players are resolved that there is definite classic potential in this game.

That being said, I'd like to to post some questions and/or offer some constructive criticism.

I've been playing Prussia and trying to learn the economic system.

I noticed that textile production never seemed to match up with well, really anything. And its not a "fudge factor" - its orders of magnitude. So I did some experimentation - I compared what my development advisor reported as textile production, clicked end turn and then compared the expected production to the totals in the economic reports and actual growth in textile stockpile.

I am not at war and built no military units or developments. No trade routes either. All advisors are off. To my knowledge I consumed no textiles.

The first thing I noticed when looking at the development advisor is that several different numbers are presented for predicted textile production. The grey box on the advisor (national production) shows +48 - totaling up the production for provinces gives +25. Totaling up production from the Main Screen by clicking on each province producing textiles (at the bottom, top 3 production) gives +35. So already there is a problem. What do each of these numbers represent? Why are they different? I understand your advisors are giving "best guesses" and there is a fudge factor involved, but the numbers should be consistent.

Looking at the economy report from the next turn I see that totaling up province production shows +26 (very close to +25 above). The income report shows +48, same as the grey box in the development advisor. But here's where it gets really interesting. In the Adjustments area waste is listed as -34 (over 66% of production!). Finally the actual net increase in the stockpile is a whopping +14 - which is 48 - 34 waste. Waste is not documented at all and is currently consuming 66% of textile production - not exactly trivial. None of the reports agree with each other or the actual net increase in textiles.

Also, there seems to be no conversion from wool or cotton to textiles - both stockpiles keep growing each turn.

I didn't run the numbers on all commodities but none of them are even close to what I am seeing in the development screen and all display the problem with three or four completely different figures.

I understand there are fudge factors and events during the Move Phase could dramatically impact production but this is ridiculous.

There are a couple possibilities here:

1) I'm missing something obvious in which case I thank everyone in advance for your help.

2) I'm seeing what I'm seeing and this actually makes sense to somebody. The player should be able to access simple, clear information about expected production and what actual production was. I can understand differences between actual/expected production. What I don't understand is wild variations with no apparent relationship on the same report for the same commodity.

3) The other possibility is that what I am seeing reflects major bugs in the economics system. Only the devs know for sure at this point. Perhaps this is an issue with this saved game - although I've run into similar issues in every game I've tried to pay any attention to economics - which is why I took the time to post.

Can anyone explain to me what I'm seeing?

So far I've really enjoyed the pure military aspects of the game and had some great detailed battles but economics is arguably the decisive factor of any strategy game. Right now the economics in the release version currently seem to be seriously broken and that detracts from game play in a big way in a grand strategy game. Hopefully this will all be cleared up in the forthcoming economics guide.



Montbrun -> RE: economy reports make no sense (7/6/2005 5:17:17 AM)

Apparently, when you have over 18 provinces, the "waste" kicks in at 66% - real bummer. Playing as France, I have never been able to build a military unit, or development, because of the constant state of bankruptcy of the Empire. I can't wait for an economic "primer" for this game...

Brad



2gaulle -> RE: economy reports make no sense (7/6/2005 7:09:19 AM)

I usualy start game in 92, I'm my last game I play French. now it's 1803 France have 3000 vp, 2nd is Britain with 1400 Vp. Since 4 years the French army have between 700000 and 900000 men.
If waste was very important since the begining, France was never is a state of bankruptcy. I was oblige to borow money 2 times in 10 years. I play at a dificult level.
Now it's not a easy game, in 1802 I was again a great coalition.
I was able to stood only because of a naval victory agains the Brits. But this victory was prepared since the begining of the game.

In this game nothing is imposible but nothing it's realy easy, it's why is an interesting game.



bluemonday -> RE: economy reports make no sense (7/6/2005 7:12:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad Hunter

Apparently, when you have over 18 provinces, the "waste" kicks in at 66% - real bummer. Playing as France, I have never been able to build a military unit, or development, because of the constant state of bankruptcy of the Empire. I can't wait for an economic "primer" for this game...


Really? On which level? Which scenario? Because in the 1805 scenario I find France can go crazy once she defeats the first round of enemies. With enforced peace and/or alliances you can free yourself up to build a lot of things.

Incidentally, the designer says the 18-province thing is not a hard limit.



Ralegh -> RE: economy reports make no sense (7/6/2005 9:46:02 AM)

There have been a few furphies flying around -
- its not exactly 18 provinces where it "kicks in"
- its not exactly 66%
etc etc

Waste gets worse the bigger the empire. It has different effects on the production of different goods.



Uncle_Joe -> RE: economy reports make no sense (7/6/2005 9:54:39 AM)

Your empire doesnt have to necessarily be getting 'bigger' for Waste to grow to the extreme levels.

In one of my games as Spain, I never took a province from anyone and I was experiencing about 60% waste in Textiles too. All I did was build up my capacity (Factories, Pop, Roads etc). So, in the end, I put a LOT of work into my econ for almost zero pay-off. Instead of making about 10 Textiles per turn at the beginning of the game I was making about 16 or so towards the end (although my reports were saying 45, 32, 24 etc). That little bit of increase was the result of a LOT of investment of time and resources into the textile industry. Needless to say, I felt it was a complete waste of time and resources and wouldnt bother to do the same again.






Montbrun -> RE: economy reports make no sense (7/6/2005 3:20:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluemonday


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad Hunter

Apparently, when you have over 18 provinces, the "waste" kicks in at 66% - real bummer. Playing as France, I have never been able to build a military unit, or development, because of the constant state of bankruptcy of the Empire. I can't wait for an economic "primer" for this game...


Really? On which level? Which scenario? Because in the 1805 scenario I find France can go crazy once she defeats the first round of enemies. With enforced peace and/or alliances you can free yourself up to build a lot of things.

Incidentally, the designer says the 18-province thing is not a hard limit.


Really? How about enlightening me on your economic settings? I've used Ralegh's suggestions on setting each province to 2 or 3 things that it is good at producing, and am still having a hard time. I seem to be in a constant state of bankruptcy. I've played the 1805 scenario as the French, and by 1808, my army has been reduced to almost nothing, and am not able to build anything....

Thanks,

Brad



superdave56 -> RE: economy reports make no sense (7/6/2005 3:35:20 PM)

Just a quick clarification:
I was playing Prussia from the beginning setup in 1805. I don't remember exactly how many provinces Prussia has at start but its not 18. I did nothing but adjust labor allocation per Raleigh's suggestions.

The 66% waste on textiles kicked on from turn 1 for me. I looked at other countries and its the same thing 66%+ waste on textiles. From turn 1. There seems to be no relationship to # of provinces, at least for textiles. Waste on other commodities seemed fairly reasonable (1-3 or so).

For devs and beta testers, is this just the way it is? 2/3rd of textile production going to waste or is this a bug? Or are we doing something wrong? (not enough wool/cotton, etc.?)



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