Merchants from God (Full Version)

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gdpsnake -> Merchants from God (7/10/2005 11:15:37 PM)

My French 20 privateers tried to take one GB merchant and got completely destroyed - on three seperate occasions.

So I sent my French Fleet of 70 HV,SH, and frigates and they got beat by the merchants too. I had the wind.

Can someone explain to me how merchants are sinking and taking prizes of SOL's and Frigates. This is just so bizzare and totally unreal. Merchants caught alone should either be taken or run away - they shouldn't fight fleets much less win.
Perhaps against privateers this is more plausible but even then they should run.



ericbabe -> RE: Merchants from God (7/10/2005 11:47:48 PM)

The fact that merchants have some combat stats (albeit poor ones) I consider to represent that merchants have some fighting escorts.

British ships are tough because of all the British naval upgrades... even the merchants and transports.




Uncle_Joe -> RE: Merchants from God (7/11/2005 3:00:06 AM)

Are you sure you are deploying your ships and not leaving them in the retreat area? I've never seen ANYTHING like that in all my games and I've played England and Spain a lot (so a lot of naval action).

If you are doing it correctly and still suffering those losses, then maybe check and see if Horatio Hornblower is on board the merchant...



gdpsnake -> RE: Merchants from God (7/11/2005 9:04:27 PM)

Yes, I put my ships in melee and attack and have seen merchants DESTROY Fleets. Even my French merchants have won a few ridiculous battles.
However, in one case my 70 SOL's lost 48 ships to 2 merchant ships.

Eric, while merchants may have some ability, especially British, this is just too stupid to fathom.

Gary



Mr. Z -> RE: Merchants from God (7/11/2005 10:19:32 PM)


quote:

Yes, I put my ships in melee and attack and have seen merchants DESTROY Fleets. Even my French merchants have won a few ridiculous battles.
However, in one case my 70 SOL's lost 48 ships to 2 merchant ships.

Are you sure the French ships weren't somehow depleted, perhaps from an earlier combat?

Also, next time you see this, please see if you can send us a screenshot from the final screen--the one with the captured ship numbers on it--thanks.



Naomi -> RE: Merchants from God (7/11/2005 10:32:50 PM)

He had 48 ships lost to the divinely blessed merchants, so his fleets shouldn't hv been so depleted.[:'(]



ericbabe -> RE: Merchants from God (7/12/2005 4:10:42 AM)

I looked through the C++ code and the numbers seem to be in order. The only place in the quick combat that distinguishes merchants from other ships is the place that gives them their penalty to attack and defense.



Uncle_Joe -> RE: Merchants from God (7/12/2005 4:30:18 AM)

I've also started and restarted a number of games using Merchants to attack or defend alone (or occasionally with one escort or so). Again, I can not even begin to see anything like what you are seeing here.

Perhaps it was a freak occurance...or perhaps a miracle (depending on if you believe Jules or Vincent [:D])



Gil R. -> RE: Merchants from God (7/12/2005 7:23:45 AM)

Perhaps they weren't merchant vessels at all, but actually naval ships disguised as whaling ships, like in that movie...



LaVean -> RE: Merchants from God (7/13/2005 10:52:27 PM)

English Merchant ships wee lost on a regular basis. In the 1805 - 1806 period French and Spanish privateers captured more than 1700 British Merchantmen...James's History of the Royal Navy is a good source for information on losses



mogami -> RE: Merchants from God (7/13/2005 11:07:18 PM)

Hi, Just how many ships can 2 icons actually contain.
Not all ship icons are the same number of ships. (you can have 2 icons that are actually 6 ships fighting 1 icon that is actually 40 ships right?)
I have fleets with 10 icons that contain well over 100 ships total and fleets with 6 icons that are fewer then 20 ships)



siRkid -> RE: Merchants from God (7/14/2005 2:29:57 AM)

I've seen this happen more than once, where a merchent beats my warships.[&:]



Naomi -> RE: Merchants from God (7/14/2005 3:55:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kid

I've seen this happen more than once, where a merchent beats my warships.[&:]


It's a way to remind us of, and impress us with, British naval invincibility.



Mr. Z -> RE: Merchants from God (7/14/2005 4:57:43 AM)


quote:

Hi, Just how many ships can 2 icons actually contain.
Not all ship icons are the same number of ships. (you can have 2 icons that are actually 6 ships fighting 1 icon that is actually 40 ships right?)
I have fleets with 10 icons that contain well over 100 ships total and fleets with 6 icons that are fewer then 20 ships)

True, after attrition, that can happen--it's just like divisions. You wouldn't want to go into battle with 10 depleted divisions against five full divisions, for example.



gdpsnake -> RE: Merchants from God (7/14/2005 6:35:21 PM)

quote:

I looked through the C++ code and the numbers seem to be in order. The only place in the quick combat that distinguishes merchants from other ships is the place that gives them their penalty to attack and defense.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr. Z


This is apparantly the problem then. If the code does not distinguish between a merchant/transport and a warship then of course they will behave like any other warship in a naval action.

AND THIS is the problem! Merchants and transports SHOULD not behave like warships - they should always go into the retreat box unless facing Privateers when they would fight if they couldn't get away (I.E. the enemy has the wind gauge.)
In the case of retreat, the merchants should take moderate losses unless they win the fight - this is the ONLY TIME where their penalties and country ratings matter as in all other cases they get away or are 'taken/sunk'.

I would suggest that transports/merchants ALWAYS run with the wind gauge or fight without versus privateers.
In all other cases against fleets they should run and most likely always escape without loss since warships are much slower (perhaps the occasional 10% loss as prizes due to bad luck/seamanship).

If they are with friendly fleets, they should always go into the retreat box and get away due to the 'screening' value of the fleets (perhaps with the occasional 10% or so loss due to bad luck.)

Merchants/transports versus enemy merchants/transports would always result in no effect and BOTH will retreat to their previous areas (again, perhaps a small random chance of a few ships lost on both sides due to grounding/bad luck/weather).

This will put the transports into their proper role which is to be escorted by fleets and merchants which should always run unless caught by a privateer in which case they fight. This will also make privateers more realistic as they will actually have a chance to do their historical role and capture/sink merchants.




Mr. Z -> RE: Merchants from God (7/14/2005 9:15:50 PM)


quote:

Merchants and transports SHOULD not behave like warships - they should always go into the retreat box unless facing Privateers when they would fight if they couldn't get away (I.E. the enemy has the wind gauge.)

As I understand it, it's the escorts that make the difference. I mean, escorts have to be good for something. Though I guess I could see how they might be used for defense only.



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