Any way to combat Waste ? (Full Version)

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Hard Sarge -> Any way to combat Waste ? (7/11/2005 4:31:59 AM)

I got a nice game going, been trying to be peaceful, but others keep DOW on me, and I destroy them

now I am loseing some 1350 bucks a month to waste, my protuction is totally silly

I guess Wellington caught Nappy, walking to Waterloo, as he was trying to get a loan as the the banks in Waterloo had a good loan rate

HARD_Sarge



Queeg -> RE: Any way to combat Waste ? (7/11/2005 5:05:40 AM)

Love to know the answer to this one myself.



YohanTM2 -> RE: Any way to combat Waste ? (7/11/2005 5:15:47 AM)

ditto, poor France starts with a whack.



ericbabe -> RE: Any way to combat Waste ? (7/11/2005 6:12:13 PM)

We're considering making courts (and perhaps diplomats) do this in the patch, but currently there is no way to do this.



Jordan -> RE: Any way to combat Waste ? (7/11/2005 6:20:13 PM)

Isn't waste what prevents the game from becoming a "conquer the world" fest? I hope that it doesn't change too much or the game could become so. It should be difficult to govern many provinces especially those of a different culture (and is located far from your capital) who don't appreciate the conquerors and aren't incented to help them. If it does change then I'd like to see some compensation elsewhere, like increasing the cost of obtaining certain provinces

Although the waste in the France in the beginning of the 1805 scenario might be a little much, especially in multui-player games.



Hard Sarge -> RE: Any way to combat Waste ? (7/11/2005 7:12:29 PM)

Well my only hassle with the anti take over the world idea, for this game, is as soon as there is peace, somebody is going to DOW on you, most times, 3 or 4 of them are, so what are you suppost to do, go to the Dance

defeat a side in a war, and force them to be nice, all they do is break the tready, if they think they got a chance to get away with it (had one game, I decided to be nice and took all of Aus Armies away from them for a year, the AI got smart and pulled most of the troops out of there Armies before they gave them to me)


my current game, I got 57 cities as France, I have not DOW on anybody the whole game (well, I took over some liberated cities)

LOL, I just beat Spain, Sweden and Turkey, sat back and said finally, I can relax, look at the screen, and Prussia DOW me, thought to myself, well that was dumb




Reiryc -> RE: Any way to combat Waste ? (7/11/2005 7:17:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jordan

Isn't waste what prevents the game from becoming a "conquer the world" fest? I hope that it doesn't change too much or the game could become so. It should be difficult to govern many provinces especially those of a different culture (and is located far from your capital) who don't appreciate the conquerors and aren't incented to help them. If it does change then I'd like to see some compensation elsewhere, like increasing the cost of obtaining certain provinces

Although the waste in the France in the beginning of the 1805 scenario might be a little much, especially in multui-player games.


I hope they don't change waste either. I like having some kind of restraint that reflects the administrative difficulties in managing a large empire, especially one that was won through conflict. Getting new provinces to adapt to a new way of doing 'business' and enforcing laws should cause some waste and corruption.



Hard Sarge -> RE: Any way to combat Waste ? (7/11/2005 7:32:11 PM)

I can agree, as long as the waste is coming from the cities you have taken, not your own cities or the cities that want you to protect them

I can see if I took over Wales as France, they not being too productive, but not Paris, or if Poland asks me to protect them, they shouldn't get all hussie fit and lay down on the job

also, I don't think the waste as a whole needs to be changed, but there should be some way to help control it

courts/arts/HAPPIENESS

if you spend all your time making a mighty war machine, sure you should have trouble down the road, if you spend half your time improving your cities, and building your army as you need it, you should not have as much trouble

HARD_Sarge



Reiryc -> RE: Any way to combat Waste ? (7/11/2005 8:01:14 PM)

quote:

I can agree, as long as the waste is coming from the cities you have taken, not your own cities or the cities that want you to protect them


Why?

Even today we have loads of waste in our governments and cities. Just look at chicago for waste and corruption!

quote:

I can see if I took over Wales as France, they not being too productive, but not Paris, or if Poland asks me to protect them, they shouldn't get all hussie fit and lay down on the job


I don't think they are laying down on the job, but just like when east germany and west germany reunited, you found that there were a lot of problems in dealing with the unified country. These problems, although lessened today, still exist. This is with the use of high speed communications such as computers, telephones, radio, television and so on.




Vitelski -> RE: Any way to combat Waste ? (7/11/2005 8:08:54 PM)

Maybe the problem isn't waste itself, but the lack of documentation in the manual about waste. I can accept if half my economy is lost to waste, if only I'm told what will cause waste and what can (or can't) be done about it. As it is now, I have no idea whether waste is calculated simply as a proportion of my gross income or per province, I don't know if conquered provinces will draw more waste than domestic ones, I don't know if trade is susceptible to waste (in which case my trade is returning a serious deficit and should be shut down), etcetera, etcetera.

Waste is a huge deal in this game and I really think it should have been covered in detail in the manual. (Manual 1.1, anyone?)



Mynok -> RE: Any way to combat Waste ? (7/11/2005 8:40:12 PM)


I've noticed in my games as Turkey (which is actually an excellent choice for learning the economics of the game) that waste seems to be concentrated in once of the major "happiness" items: wine, textiles, spices or luxuries. Often it's the one with the largest production, but not always.

I'll see if I can post a screen shot of what I'm saying this evening. It's very noticeable and seems fixated for the entire game. One time my spices were getting crushed. Another it was textiles.



jchastain -> RE: Any way to combat Waste ? (7/11/2005 9:12:00 PM)

Yep. The way waste seems to work is you can produce a certain low number of a commodity without waste but then it begins to kick-in and drain a percentage of production. With textiles, you don't have to produce very many before 90% of everything you make is going to waste. And anything that arrives through trade is equivalent to production, so again, 90% of what comes into the port is wasted.

So, in the final analysis, waste accomplishes a few things...

1. Your economy produces very little additional goods with growth, regardless of whether that growth comes from economic development or conquest.
2. All national economies have similar production capabilities because the larger production out of the larger economies is largely wasted.

In my mind, while not entirely realistic, both of those results lend to providing overall balance within the game.

And...

3. A smart player gets more overall production by producing a little bit of every good instead of trying to focus on any single commodity (EXCEPT for goods traded as below).
4. (removed - invalid)



Mynok -> RE: Any way to combat Waste ? (7/11/2005 9:21:58 PM)


Exactly what I've noticed. I attempted at first to create huge quantities of textiles as Turkey so I could build lots of merchants and more easily switch from a feudal to standard economy. Waste killed me.

Now I produce large quantities and sell them, which gives me very few money problems after only a couple months, but real serious issues getting enough textiles to make the units I need to make. Turkey should have money issues, not textile issues IMO.

I also would LOVE to know how wool/cotton are turned into textiles. Since waste causes such a huge noise-to-signal ratio in the reports, I can't tell if anything is being converted....nor does the manual define was "trade labor" is. As it is, I convert cotton to money since everyone seems to have loads of wool, and Turkey has more cotton than the rest of Europe combined, especially with North Africa under her boot.




Jordan -> RE: Any way to combat Waste ? (7/11/2005 9:35:46 PM)

quote:

Maybe the problem isn't waste itself, but the lack of documentation in the manual about waste. I can accept if half my economy is lost to waste, if only I'm told what will cause waste and what can (or can't) be done about it.


Completely agree with this. Managing expectations. If I know waste will increase and understand a little better how and why then I can accept those facts and plan my game.

quote:

The way waste seems to work is you can produce a certain low number of a commodity without waste but then it begins to kick-in and drain a percentage of production. With textiles, you don't have to produce very many before 90% of everything you make is going to waste. And anything that arrives through trade is equivalent to production, so again, 90% of what comes into the port is wasted.


Also, think this acts as an inhibitor to the player...prevents you from becoming an economic powerhouse (as in so many other games) to the point where you are just about unbeatable b/c you can produce any unit anytime you want. The waste means I will need to think wisely about my resources even late in the game.



Jordan -> RE: Any way to combat Waste ? (7/11/2005 10:25:10 PM)



"Europe under Napoleon, 1799-1815. By Michael Broers"

From the review:

Two original themes underlie the work. First is the distinction that Broers makes between the "inner" and "outer" empire. As a detailed map illustrates, the former included Belgium, the Netherlands, the Rhinelands, most of western Germany, Switzerland, northern Italy, and France itself, shorn of the west and eastern Pyrenees, areas integrated into an efficiently administered and largely obedient bloc. In contrast, the "outer" empire, composed of the German Hanseatic territories, former Papal States, Illyrian provinces, and the kingdom of Spain ruled by Joseph Bonaparte, displayed little enthusiasm for French occupation. They resented the imposition of high taxes, enforcement of the Continental blockade against trade with England, application of the Concordat, and, perhaps most importantly, conscription demands to supply troops for the Grande Armee. Within these fringe areas, banditry flourished, elites declined to cooperate with the occupier, and the forces of counterrevolution remained active.

Second, Broers contends, Napoleon sought to rally hostile political factions of both right and left to his rule (ralliement), as well as to fuse them into a loyal administrative class (amalgame). In return for their services and obedience, Napoleon offered this new elite social order a coherent legal code and protection of their property. In the "outer" empire, Napoleonic rule rested on an insecure alliance of local collaborators and French administrators, both of whom were unpopular with their subjects.



superdave56 -> RE: Any way to combat Waste ? (7/11/2005 10:45:22 PM)

quote:

Maybe the problem isn't waste itself, but the lack of documentation in the manual about waste. I can accept if half my economy is lost to waste, if only I'm told what will cause waste and what can (or can't) be done about it. As it is now, I have no idea whether waste is calculated simply as a proportion of my gross income or per province, I don't know if conquered provinces will draw more waste than domestic ones, I don't know if trade is susceptible to waste (in which case my trade is returning a serious deficit and should be shut down), etcetera, etcetera.


I agree. Please document waste and economics so we can make intelligent decisions. Once we understand what is going on then we can have the argument over whether waste is too much, too little, or just right. Is there still going to be an economics FAQ soon?



jchastain -> RE: Any way to combat Waste ? (7/12/2005 12:25:39 AM)

Well, I played around with waste a bit and here is how it seems to work...

First, waste is a result of total production ONLY. It is not impacted by number of provinces, level of feudalism, or anything else.

Next, waste does not seem to impact labor, food or (strangely) wool. (Wool is especially strange since cotton does experience waste - bug?).

There is a threshold level of production for each remaining item below where waste is created. For most items it is 10. For Iron and Cotton, it is 20. So, there is no waste at all on the first 10 of everything produced and the first 20 of iron or cotton produced.

For any production above that threshhold, waste is set at 50% for everything EXCEPT textiles - they experience waste at 90%. So, if you produce 24 horses, the first 10 are below the threshold. The next 14 experience 50% waste so you lose 7 of them to waste.

For any production above 3x the threshold, you lose 90% waste. So any production above 30 for most items and any production above 60 for Iron and Cotton experiences extreme (90%) waste. So, if you produce 40 horses, the first 10 experience no waste, the next 20 experience 50% waste so you lose 10 of them, and the remaining 10 produce 90% waste so you lose 9 more for a total waste of 19. (Textiles waste 90% all the time so the step up doesn't impact them).



Jordan -> RE: Any way to combat Waste ? (7/12/2005 12:39:36 AM)

quote:

And anything that arrives through trade is equivalent to production, so again, 90% of what comes into the port is wasted.


So, why would I trade for anything except money? It seems that other players will have the same inclination, so you will have a situation with a lot of sellers and no buyers.



Vitelski -> RE: Any way to combat Waste ? (7/12/2005 12:57:39 AM)

This is extremely interesting! But how do you mean money is not affected by waste? I have a tax income of about 1500, 770 of which is lost to waste. Or do you mean money earned through trade is not affected by waste? Well, I guess I'll just try it out.
Thanks all for supplying these various bits of information!



jchastain -> RE: Any way to combat Waste ? (7/12/2005 2:01:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vitelski

This is extremely interesting! But how do you mean money is not affected by waste? I have a tax income of about 1500, 770 of which is lost to waste. Or do you mean money earned through trade is not affected by waste? Well, I guess I'll just try it out.
Thanks all for supplying these various bits of information!


Doh! You're right! I was tracking commodities and just made a boneheaded statement. Cash does experience waste above a certain level. And both trade and tax income is affected. It is just significantly complex that I haven't been able to model it effectively. Thanks for the correction.



Hard Sarge -> RE: Any way to combat Waste ? (7/12/2005 4:24:59 AM)

are you saying building per city or building total ?

hmmm, and since we have protecter cities, that we can't control, they will ruin anything you try to set up

I got to disagree, with the Waste is a great Idea, it will slow the player down, as far as I see it, Waste is a Game breaker, and will drive the player away

or if nothing else, force them into playing smaller/shorter games, why play a 5000 point game,

HARD_Sarge



Reiryc -> RE: Any way to combat Waste ? (7/12/2005 4:36:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

are you saying building per city or building total ?

hmmm, and since we have protecter cities, that we can't control, they will ruin anything you try to set up

I got to disagree, with the Waste is a great Idea, it will slow the player down, as far as I see it, Waste is a Game breaker, and will drive the player away

or if nothing else, force them into playing smaller/shorter games, why play a 5000 point game,

HARD_Sarge



Interesting view... I've found waste to be a good idea and it's partly that slowing of the player down that keeps me playing no matter the length of the game.






jchastain -> RE: Any way to combat Waste ? (7/12/2005 5:08:24 AM)

More than anything, waste is viewed as a negative because people expect more than they get. If the system simply quoted production as 1/10 of what it says now but then there was a "bonus" whereby you got 10x production for the first unit produced and 2x production for the next 10 units produced, then we'd have the same exact total production figures as we do now. The difference with waste is that people feel like they produced something and it was then taken away from them.



Uncle_Joe -> RE: Any way to combat Waste ? (7/12/2005 5:12:33 AM)

I think waste as implemented is not a good idea. It doesnt offer any encouragement to improve your provinces through economic upgrades. Unless the way waste is implemented is changed, it wont be long before players arent bothering with econ upgrades at all and concentrating on the military upgrade and troops instead.



EarlPembroke -> RE: Any way to combat Waste ? (7/12/2005 5:27:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Uncle_Joe

I think waste as implemented is not a good idea. It doesnt offer any encouragement to improve your provinces through economic upgrades. Unless the way waste is implemented is changed, it wont be long before players arent bothering with econ upgrades at all and concentrating on the military upgrade and troops instead.


With this I'd agree. Would be better to have a more sliding scale. I think the waste should be tied to your average Courts improvement across your provinces. That would encourage some building of them. As it stands now, you build up courts in one province to get good diplomats, then no courts in the rest of your lands. No real incentive to build them (perhaps least of all improvements). So if your average level of courts was 1.0, your waste factor becomes 90% of whatever base waste (determined by your level of production). If you build to an average courts level of 5.0, your waste is 50% of base for given level of production.

Thoughts?

Oh, and while we're talking improvements, can we lower the cost of Roads just a wee bit on the labor involved? Makes it hard to play an economic game when I try to build everything in line with the level of roads, but I'm always having to wait several turns to save enough labor to build roads in a province.

And one more thing. [:'(] - I have income, but little labor. So no point in producing militia at all - might as well garrison everything with infantry. Seems to me that militia should take less labor to build than infantry. If this were to simulate the labor removed from the work force, it might be OK, but there is already a very good system for that in removed population. Seems like in reality there is less labor in putting together militia - yes they need uniforms and guns, but probably not as good as the infantry, less resources committed to training them (besides just money), etc.



jchastain -> RE: Any way to combat Waste ? (7/12/2005 5:30:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Uncle_Joe

I think waste as implemented is not a good idea. It doesnt offer any encouragement to improve your provinces through economic upgrades. Unless the way waste is implemented is changed, it wont be long before players arent bothering with econ upgrades at all and concentrating on the military upgrade and troops instead.


I think that is already the case for the more knowledgable players. Between the very minimal impact of upgrades (as I discussed in THIS thread) and the significant impact of waste, economic upgrades are essentially worthless in the majority of circumstances.

It is a fine balancing act though. In order to maintain the flavor of the game, it is essential that a growing threat is able to be stopped by an alliance of smaller nations. Essentially, 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 must be greater than 4. And waste is an important element in ensuring that is true. If the goal is to ensure that people invest in provincial developments, I think it would be preferable to increase their direct impact instead of lowering waste. Instead of giving a 10% bonus, it needs to be at least 25% to make that happen. In that way, investment is encouraged and has a real impact (building 3 of something would yield a multiplier of 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.25 or 1.95 (essentially doubling output) rather than the current 1.1 x 1.1 x 1.1 or 30% bump. Even with 90% waste, doubling output has a significant impact.

The other option is to use developments to lower waste. The challenge there is that waste is computed on a national level and calculating it on a province by province basis would be a lot of rework. Adding all of the total roads and courthouses together to give a national reduction of waste (for example) would give the greatest benefit to the largest nations so that the strongest would grow stronger - the exact opposite of the desired behavior.

Just my thoughts after a brief reflection...



EarlPembroke -> RE: Any way to combat Waste ? (7/12/2005 5:36:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jchastain

The other option is to use developments to lower waste. The challenge there is that waste is computed on a national level and calculating it on a province by province basis would be a lot of rework. Adding all of the total roads and courthouses together to give a national reduction of waste (for example) would give the greatest benefit to the largest nations so that the strongest would grow stronger - the exact opposite of the desired behavior.

Just my thoughts after a brief reflection...


I realize you posted while I was posting the one above, but how about average courthouses (and roads is a good idea too)? So a small nation builds one courthouse and gets a benefit; a larger nation has to build x times as many to get the same.



jchastain -> RE: Any way to combat Waste ? (7/12/2005 5:41:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: EarlPembroke

With this I'd agree. Would be better to have a more sliding scale. I think the waste should be tied to your average Courts improvement across your provinces. That would encourage some building of them. As it stands now, you build up courts in one province to get good diplomats, then no courts in the rest of your lands. No real incentive to build them (perhaps least of all improvements). So if your average level of courts was 1.0, your waste factor becomes 90% of whatever base waste (determined by your level of production). If you build to an average courts level of 5.0, your waste is 50% of base for given level of production.

Thoughts?


I think that would make courts too powerful. The key is to balance various improvements so as to create a real delimma in choosing between them. In this system, I'd build barracks in one loacation and nothing but courts everywhere else. Using the average (rather than total) is a smart move. Perhaps...

The impacts of farms, factories, and banks are increased from 10% to 25% as discussed above.
Waste is reduced by the average of roads and courts * 5% (so up to 50% reduction in waste for all 10's).
(as an aside Culture could be used to determine the Victory Point cost of a province following a surrender but it still needs help)

The problem with all of this is that it would resule in significantly more production. That would be to be balanced by either toning down the base production figures or increasing the cost of everything. You don't want everyone awash in unlimited resources.



Uncle_Joe -> RE: Any way to combat Waste ? (7/12/2005 5:51:42 AM)

In theory I agree that something like having Courthouses combat waste is a good idea. But I dont think it will be sufficient without some other tweaks being made. All that is doing is increasing the 'overhead' for any economic upgrade. So, instead of needing to builds Roads to 3, then Factories to 3 to get 'x' payoff, you need to do Road, Factories, and then Courthouses to get 'x' payoff.

Given that most games arent going to go on for years and years and years, economic upgrades are already marginal in value compared to military upgrades (or troops). Having Courthouses combat waste just increases the investment needed for payoff which is already too low.

As I mentioned in the other waste thread, I think a possible solution would be to have the level of development of a province reduce waste. So, a few upgraded provinces should experience considerably less waste on their output than having a ton of conquered or unupgraded provinces providing the same output. Note that the resource producing upgrades themselves should reduce the waste, not be dependent on yet another upgrade to do so.

Another possible solution would be to lower the build time and cost of many econ upgrades such that its actually possible to have them pay off within the timeframe of an average game.

If not already implemented, I think waste SHOULD be tied to the number of provinces that you are producing 'x' in as well. Centralizing production and upgrading to higher level developments should produce payoff commeasurate with their expense. Currently, 2-3 crap provinces can often produce as much or more of a resource than one upgrade province and without the upgrade costs and time. The waste cuts the same both ways, so why bother paying for upper level upgrades? The trick would be to have that one developed province producing significantly more than the 2-3 crap province.

If doing the above, a more 'guns or butter' feel would develop. If you put more of your resources into econ upgrades, you should see return on it at least as fast or faster than simply going on the warpath and taking provinces. Otherwise the decision to go 'guns or butter' is not really a decision at all...go 'guns' and simply take what you need with less hassle, time, and probably with more Glory to boot.



jchastain -> RE: Any way to combat Waste ? (7/12/2005 7:01:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Uncle_Joe

In theory I agree that something like having Courthouses combat waste is a good idea. But I dont think it will be sufficient without some other tweaks being made. All that is doing is increasing the 'overhead' for any economic upgrade. So, instead of needing to builds Roads to 3, then Factories to 3 to get 'x' payoff, you need to do Road, Factories, and then Courthouses to get 'x' payoff.

Given that most games arent going to go on for years and years and years, economic upgrades are already marginal in value compared to military upgrades (or troops). Having Courthouses combat waste just increases the investment needed for payoff which is already too low.

As I mentioned in the other waste thread, I think a possible solution would be to have the level of development of a province reduce waste. So, a few upgraded provinces should experience considerably less waste on their output than having a ton of conquered or unupgraded provinces providing the same output. Note that the resource producing upgrades themselves should reduce the waste, not be dependent on yet another upgrade to do so.

Another possible solution would be to lower the build time and cost of many econ upgrades such that its actually possible to have them pay off within the timeframe of an average game.

If not already implemented, I think waste SHOULD be tied to the number of provinces that you are producing 'x' in as well. Centralizing production and upgrading to higher level developments should produce payoff commeasurate with their expense. Currently, 2-3 crap provinces can often produce as much or more of a resource than one upgrade province and without the upgrade costs and time. The waste cuts the same both ways, so why bother paying for upper level upgrades? The trick would be to have that one developed province producing significantly more than the 2-3 crap province.

If doing the above, a more 'guns or butter' feel would develop. If you put more of your resources into econ upgrades, you should see return on it at least as fast or faster than simply going on the warpath and taking provinces. Otherwise the decision to go 'guns or butter' is not really a decision at all...go 'guns' and simply take what you need with less hassle, time, and probably with more Glory to boot.


UJ -
What specific problem do you think needs to be addressed? If you just want to make province improvements more attractive, then I believe that is best addressed by enhancing them directly - so increase the bonus for each farm/factory/bank - rather than by curtailing waste (which really is aimed more at preventing large empires from dominating).



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