Declaring War (Full Version)

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ptan54 -> Declaring War (7/15/2005 8:57:46 PM)

Standard Scenario, playing as Russia.

Beat France with ease and the British had a huge army in Paris to force surrender.

Now I want to take Finland. Insult the Swedes with my diplomats and move my armies into their capital...two years have passed and they've issued various ultimata telling me to get lost. I ignore them. War does not happen.

I'm getting sick and tired. How do I declare war? There's a declare war option but that's presumably to get another country to declare war on a third party.

I'm at war with Spain at the moment and no hostilities have been exchanged. Shouldn't Spain make peace with everyone after France is beaten? And they keep rejecting my offers of white peace/ceasefire. Annoying bastards. Does being at war with Spain prevent me from going to war with Sweden?

HELP!



Alex Gilbert -> RE: Declaring War (7/15/2005 9:05:41 PM)

Right click on Sweeden, a pop-up menu includes (I think) the name of the country--there is a sub-menu with options including subsidize country, declare war, or undeclared war. Select declare war.

Alex



ptan54 -> RE: Declaring War (7/15/2005 9:06:18 PM)

Done that - no declare war option!



Alex Gilbert -> RE: Declaring War (7/15/2005 9:18:47 PM)

Well, I am hardly one of the experts here, but from my own experience, there is nothing about being at war with Spain that should keep you from DoWing Sweden. You did not ally with Sweden, right? Perhaps you would have to break the alliance first?



munited18 -> RE: Declaring War (7/15/2005 9:23:37 PM)

Are you still allied with them?



jchastain -> RE: Declaring War (7/15/2005 9:28:17 PM)

Allied is the most likely explanation. Other possibility is that you are already at war without knowing it. It isn't always as clear as it should be when they decide they've had enough following an ultimatum.



Naomi -> RE: Declaring War (7/15/2005 9:37:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ptan54

Standard Scenario, playing as Russia.

Beat France with ease and the British had a huge army in Paris to force surrender.

Now I want to take Finland. Insult the Swedes with my diplomats and move my armies into their capital...two years have passed and they've issued various ultimata telling me to get lost. I ignore them. War does not happen.

I'm getting sick and tired. How do I declare war? There's a declare war option but that's presumably to get another country to declare war on a third party.

I'm at war with Spain at the moment and no hostilities have been exchanged. Shouldn't Spain make peace with everyone after France is beaten? And they keep rejecting my offers of white peace/ceasefire. Annoying bastards. Does being at war with Spain prevent me from going to war with Sweden?

HELP!

I guess, its just because your Russian troops were already on Swedian soil before you were going to declare war on Swedes. You should've ordered your men back onto your home land so you can declare war.



Mynok -> RE: Declaring War (7/15/2005 9:37:59 PM)


What is on the menu when you right-click Finland and click on the Sweden line? If Surrender or Offer Cease Fire exists, you are at war.



Alex Gilbert -> RE: Declaring War (7/15/2005 9:40:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Naomi


quote:

ORIGINAL: ptan54

Standard Scenario, playing as Russia.

Beat France with ease and the British had a huge army in Paris to force surrender.

Now I want to take Finland. Insult the Swedes with my diplomats and move my armies into their capital...two years have passed and they've issued various ultimata telling me to get lost. I ignore them. War does not happen.

I'm getting sick and tired. How do I declare war? There's a declare war option but that's presumably to get another country to declare war on a third party.

I'm at war with Spain at the moment and no hostilities have been exchanged. Shouldn't Spain make peace with everyone after France is beaten? And they keep rejecting my offers of white peace/ceasefire. Annoying bastards. Does being at war with Spain prevent me from going to war with Sweden?

HELP!

I guess, its just because your Russian troops were already on Swedian soil before you were going to declare war on Swedes. You should've ordered your men back onto your home land so you can declare war.


Actually, I thought about that and tried it--you can declare war on a country even if you are already in the procss of violating their territory.



Naomi -> RE: Declaring War (7/15/2005 10:01:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alex Gilbert


Actually, I thought about that and tried it--you can declare war on a country even if you are already in the procss of violating their territory.


It's all too unreasonable. I would like to see this issue up for the designers' reviewing.



ahauschild -> RE: Declaring War (7/15/2005 11:47:48 PM)

There is a bug, I can vouche for it. In a previous campaign with the prussians I was never able to declare war on the Turks, no matter what I tried. I had no treatys or such, and used all possible methods to get them to decalre war on me, or visa versa. Sometimes two nations are just immune to the call of war.



jchastain -> RE: Declaring War (7/16/2005 12:01:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ahauschild

There is a bug, I can vouche for it. In a previous campaign with the prussians I was never able to declare war on the Turks, no matter what I tried. I had no treatys or such, and used all possible methods to get them to decalre war on me, or visa versa. Sometimes two nations are just immune to the call of war.


Do you have the technology advancement "Ignore United Nations" yet? [:'(]



Naomi -> RE: Declaring War (7/16/2005 12:22:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jchastain

Do you have the technology advancement "Ignore United Nations" yet? [:'(]

Or perhaps your Talleyrand did so far as to prevent your DOW coming into effect. :p



Mr. Z -> RE: Declaring War (7/16/2005 1:03:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Naomi


quote:

ORIGINAL: jchastain

Do you have the technology advancement "Ignore United Nations" yet? [:'(]

Or perhaps your Talleyrand did so far as to prevent your DOW coming into effect. :p


Yeah, make sure your diplomatic expert is turned off.



Ralegh -> RE: Declaring War (7/16/2005 7:15:02 AM)

The most likely cause in my experience is that you are allied to them. If you don't see Declare War as an option on the right click menu chen you click their country, then this is the reason. You have to break the alliance, and then in the following month you can declare war.



ptan54 -> RE: Declaring War (7/16/2005 7:53:06 AM)

I've dissolved the alliance actually. And selected violate neutrality. Grrrr.



Ralegh -> RE: Declaring War (7/16/2005 7:58:36 AM)

send me the saved game (and matching rep file) [zipped up] and i will have a look.
ralegh@rosesolutions.com



ptan54 -> RE: Declaring War (7/16/2005 9:45:04 AM)

OK, I'll send you the saved game.

Diplomatic Situation:[image]http://upl.silentwhisper.net/uplfolders/upload0/Diplomatic_Situation_July_1808.JPG[/image]

Options that pop up when I rightclick Sweden:[image]http://upl.silentwhisper.net/uplfolders/upload0/No_War_Option.JPG[/image]



Ralegh -> RE: Declaring War (7/16/2005 1:58:46 PM)

Aha! Got it. (I looked at the save file, but these 2 screen shots told the story anyway.)

A little known rule in the game is that you cannot declare war on someone who is at war with someone you are at war with.
In your game, you and Sweden are both at war with Spain. Hence you cannot declare war on Sweden. (If you made a peace with Spain, you would be able to declare war on Sweden.)

This rule exists to encourage wars to turn into 2 sides against each other, rather than everyone against everyone stuff.



ptan54 -> RE: Declaring War (7/16/2005 5:43:49 PM)

Ah right! Thanks!



ahauschild -> RE: Declaring War (7/16/2005 9:33:06 PM)

Hmm. that is interesting. So in order to keep turkey out of the war with me, all I have to do is get them to delare war on England, and then myself declare ware on England. Since ussually Turkey and England end up with a stale mate, unless Turkey is forced to Surrender to other Countries, then as long as we both maintian war status against England we will be protected from each other.



jstransue -> RE: Declaring War (7/16/2005 10:07:36 PM)

Ah, that explains something in my British game then. I've been trying to declare war on France again after the mandatory peace had expired. They kept sending little bands into my territory on the continent and I'd "declare war" on them at the pop-up screen. I'm also fighting the Turkish in Egypt. It appears that Turkey and France are also at War, so that explains the problem I've had the last few turns.

Thanks



Jordan -> RE: Declaring War (7/18/2005 6:41:37 PM)

Yes, now I'm wondering how this little known rule could be gamed in an mp session.

Could Britain protect the continent by letting the continental powers declare (a phony) war on her?



Ralegh -> RE: Declaring War (7/19/2005 5:57:48 AM)

Yes. I agree this rule is open to some abuse. Got a better idea?

Historically, the wars always seemed to fall into two sides, usually with everyone on one side being at war with everyone on the other side. I think the intention in COG is to preserve that character.



Jordan -> RE: Declaring War (7/19/2005 7:29:20 AM)

Yeah, I agree with the intention. Maybe it could be disabled in mp games?



jchastain -> RE: Declaring War (7/19/2005 7:55:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jordan

Yeah, I agree with the intention. Maybe it could be disabled in mp games?


I could see a case for a multi-player game allowing one human player to declare war on any other human player regardless of war status with other nations. But I could also see some downsides as there are precious few diplomatic options that matter in MP and this is one of the ones that do. So, while a change may prove to be warrented, I would wait until some evidence arises that this is being abused before rushing to make a change to the system.



Jordan -> RE: Declaring War (7/19/2005 8:27:43 AM)

Not sure I quite understand your point.

The intention of the rule is to maintain a kind of coalition like atmosphere and to keep the game from degenerating into a mish mosh of wars - France fighting Britain who is fighting Austria who is fighting France. And Turkey is fighting Britain and Austria. So the rule works to keep the AI in order. In a solo game, yes you could figure out a way to game the system (as above) to your advantage but so what? Bully for you.

In an MP game any AI controlled nations would still follow that rule but the human players know what they're doing. In fact it would make the game more interesting. The possibilty of Spain and Turkey going to war could give the French player headaches as he's trying to get them to concentrate on Austria, etc. I'm not sure how options are being limited - I think they being expanded in addition to taking away a cheat.



jchastain -> RE: Declaring War (7/19/2005 8:40:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jordan

Not sure I quite understand your point.

The intention of the rule is to maintain a kind of coalition like atmosphere and to keep the game from degenerating into a mish mosh of wars - France fighting Britain who is fighting Austria who is fighting France. And Turkey is fighting Britain and Austria. So the rule works to keep the AI in order. In a solo game, yes you could figure out a way to game the system (as above) to your advantage but so what? Bully for you.

In an MP game any AI controlled nations would still follow that rule but the human players know what they're doing. In fact it would make the game more interesting. The possibilty of Spain and Turkey going to war could give the French player headaches as he's trying to get them to concentrate on Austria, etc. I'm not sure how options are being limited - I think they being expanded in addition to taking away a cheat.



Let's me give you an example of the potential for abuse. Britain and Turkey are close friends. Britain and France have an enforced peace that is about to expire and it is obvious that the French are building up for a massive attack. So, right before the expiration, Turkey declares war on both Britain and France. Now France suddenly finds herself "allied" with Britain and cannot declare the war that she wants. Turkey will not accept a cease fire and France cannot really mount much of an offensive against Turkey with the British fleet trying to stop her in the western med and the Turkish fleet patrolling the eastern med (but the two conspicuously staying away from one another despite their supposed state of war).



jchastain -> RE: Declaring War (7/19/2005 8:48:37 AM)

Doh! Nevermind. You were saying how could it be a bad thing to let them fight it out. Well, let's throw out an example in the other direction...

What if Turkey is allied with Britain and France wants to be able to take out Britain but can't fight a two front war and the Turkish forces have been approaching from the South and are looking ominous. France could approach Turkey and attempt to strike a treaty where they agree to both declare war on Austria and each take a big piece. That might prove very tempting to Turkey. And yet, as soon as the war begins, France would then declare war against Britain and begin focusing her efforts in that direction having tied Turkey up in a war with Austria. In that case, I think using the diplomacy option to ensure a potential rival is otherwise occupied is a plus for the game.



Jordan -> RE: Declaring War (7/19/2005 8:50:09 AM)

I think you have misinterpreted the exchange between Raleigh and I above...we're talking about the same thing



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