Sad but True

Sad but True (Full Version)

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soldier -> Sad but True (7/19/2005 1:45:07 PM)
I'm a big fan of WAW. In fact its my favourite game. I'm grateful that such a fine product is free. [&o] When Mike Wood was redoing the EXEcutable I was very happy to hear it and yes many changes are a great improvement especially tank rider casualties. It used to annoy me that riders were almost completely invunerable. I like the realism of WAWs armour penetration model and the accurate statistics of those units. I posted here asking for area fire through smoke to be enabled as it is in MBT, why ? BECAUSE BULLETS TRAVEL THROUGH SMOKE but no one said anything, no one cared and smoke remains a brick wall. Someone even posted elsewhere that it is subtle simulation of reality because you wouldnt waste the ammo even though the tactic can and was used in WW2 You cant argue with that sort of logic and i see a lot of that sort of thinking here at Matrix. Instead of recognizing theres a flaw they go out of their way to justify it. When flame dominates tanks they excuse it. Tanks that are better in the middle of a forest than in open ground is openly accepted ? Those with real weight here say infantry is the premier weapon when MCs and cavalry will always beat them. They praise the flaws as well as the highlights Constructive critisism is dead at Matrix and i now understand why the depot and SPcamo (who produced an outstanding product in MBT ! ) came into being. There are real problems here and i hold grave fears for Combat Leader. I apologize if i have offended anyone here. I'm passionate about WAW and realistic gaming a soldier ducks for cover

robot -> RE: Sad but True (7/20/2005 3:18:11 AM)
No sounds to me you are griping because they didnt fix your particuler peeve. I have never in the years ive been coming to this board heard little to none about the smoke. No one says waw is perfect it never will be. But it too me is still the very best ive ever played. True rounds should go theu smoke with no problem but i for one dont really care it doesnt or does in the game.

FlashfyreSP -> RE: Sad but True (7/20/2005 7:10:14 AM)
The question as I see it isn't whether or not rounds should go through smoke, it's whether blind firing into smoke will hit your target. Smoke blocks LOS in the game, not rounds. But in order to fire rounds at a target, you must see the target...and this is where smoke plays its part. If you cannot see a target, you cannot fire effectively at it. Basically, the game operates on the premise that casualties will occur more frequently when the target is visible than when it is not; when the firer can aim at a human or a vehicle, not just send rounds downrange into the smoke cloud with the hopes that something might get hit. Granted, there will be casualties from this type of wild fire, but the probability of them occuring is extremely low compared to aimed fire at visible targets.

robot -> RE: Sad but True (7/20/2005 3:01:08 PM)
Very well put flashfyre.

soldier -> RE: Sad but True (7/20/2005 5:48:49 PM)
Actually i was refering to "area fire", a feature which is already included in the game just not when smoke rounds appear. The problem is multiplied when Every man and his dog has smoke even conscripts and crewmen Firing smoke does not use up your shot count ? A sherman can fire its full turns worth and then 3 smoke shots as well I think its a problem because it allows gamey tactics, blocks free flowing game play and completley disregards the laws of physics.

Svennemir -> RE: Sad but True (7/20/2005 7:51:01 PM)
I agree with soldier. Not that the exact firing through smoke part is a particularly bad issue, but some types of weapons (152mm guns for example) would certainly have a use for this. More importantly, why cannot artillery observers be used to gain the arty spotting bonus through smoke? It's not like they're trying to hit specific people. As it is, visual contact is a near-useless concept for artillery since the first bombardment will immediately clog all visibility into the actual target region, and from then on one might as well use a person in the other end of the map to spot. The actual problem is, while SPWAW is an excellent game, most of the time is spent discussing whether that specific SpähPanzer actually could use its two MGs at the same time or whether the armour thickness should be 36 or 37 millimetres. Or should we change the icon for this SturmGeschütz? There are some much larger issues, and there has certainly been a large amount of excuses defending semi-bugs and weird behaviour. Why must smoke linger around for so long that it completely dominates every large battle? I have lost small stationary vehicles in forests in valleys to airstrikes somehow, perhaps a slight correction of aircraft vision would be in order? Why do tanks get so much suppression from small arms fire? Last, machine guns may have been made better, but they are still completely ineffective since it takes very little suppression to make them stop firing - meaning one or two bursts from the MG before the enemy can fire dozens of times with impunity to eliminate it. The above rants pertain to some not-too-new version of the game, so hopefully some of these have been fixed.

Major_Johnson -> RE: Sad but True (7/20/2005 9:49:40 PM)
Not that this is part of your original complaint, but crewman only fire smoke when the game tells them to. That option is not available for the player, which had been a complaint I posted many moons ago when 8.0 came out. All previous versions had the option available quote: ORIGINAL: soldier Every man and his dog has smoke even conscripts and crewmen

soldier -> RE: Sad but True (7/21/2005 12:44:57 PM)
"There are some much larger issues, and there has certainly been a large amount of excuses defending semi-bugs and weird behaviour." I couldnt agree more. Point out an obvious issue (or a more debatable one) and theres so many defensive comments here. These same issues are openly discussed (even agreed with) at other forums, notably the blitz and Depot. There is just no admission of flaws in the game here and your accused of some agenda if you try to bring them up. There was some good debates at SPCAMOs forums and some good ideas came up when people were a little more open minded. Although i prefer WAW, many excellent features were included in Win Mbt. For starters passengers always got hit and smoke can be fired through. Unloading costs movement points and draws fire if too close to combat. Firing Smoke costs shot rounds. and lastly.... INFANTRY IS TOUGH AND WILL DO THE JOB ! (piss weak in 8.4 so get over it). What a dream to have these features combined with WAWs excellent armour combat system, command/control and op fire. Perhaps too good to be true especially with prevailing attitudes at MG where nothing is ever wrong [8\|] I will say no more... good bye

Wild Bill -> RE: Sad but True (7/23/2005 5:46:20 PM)
Ah, to have the best of all worlds! Its a dream we all have. My personal opinion is that area fire is sufficient or should be when dealing with firing through smoke. There are a lot of variables that I guess no game can include. What about wind velocity, or the effects of a rain storm and a firefight occurring simultaneously? I think smoke, depending on its density, should affect the effects of fire. If you can see the enemy clearly, how can you fire accurately? Each hex represents 50 meters or about ...what, 35 yards or so. I consider two hexes about the length of a football field...more or less. If you've ever stood at one end of a football field and looked at someone at the other end, well, its not that easy to be able to pop off a few rounds and knock him down, even on a clear day. And if he is moving, dodging between trees, or at least partially covered by smoke, that makes it even more difficult. I'm amazed when I read of men at much closer range than that, only a few meters or yards apart, firing at each at nearly point blank range, and missing each other. I remember reading that more casualties have resulted from big guns than small ones in modern warfare. Vietnam was an interesting exception in that so many US casualties resulted from...primitive booby traps! Amazing. punji sticks, grenades strung on a trip wire, and other even more pirmitive tools of death were used effectively by the VC and NVA. This is an interesting topic and probably will never be resolved to the satisfaction of all. But its good to talk about it. Wild Bill

RockinHarry -> RE: Sad but True (7/25/2005 2:55:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Svennemir I agree with soldier. Not that the exact firing through smoke part is a particularly bad issue, but some types of weapons (152mm guns for example) would certainly have a use for this. More importantly, why cannot artillery observers be used to gain the arty spotting bonus through smoke? It's not like they're trying to hit specific people. As it is, visual contact is a near-useless concept for artillery since the first bombardment will immediately clog all visibility into the actual target region, and from then on one might as well use a person in the other end of the map to spot. The actual problem is, while SPWAW is an excellent game, most of the time is spent discussing whether that specific SpähPanzer actually could use its two MGs at the same time or whether the armour thickness should be 36 or 37 millimetres. Or should we change the icon for this SturmGeschütz? There are some much larger issues, and there has certainly been a large amount of excuses defending semi-bugs and weird behaviour. Why must smoke linger around for so long that it completely dominates every large battle? I have lost small stationary vehicles in forests in valleys to airstrikes somehow, perhaps a slight correction of aircraft vision would be in order? Why do tanks get so much suppression from small arms fire? Last, machine guns may have been made better, but they are still completely ineffective since it takes very little suppression to make them stop firing - meaning one or two bursts from the MG before the enemy can fire dozens of times with impunity to eliminate it. The above rants pertain to some not-too-new version of the game, so hopefully some of these have been fixed. Too true Svennemir! Smoke in this game is more of a bad joke! [8\|]I almost think there must have been a secret agreement between old SSI/Grigsby and MatrixGames not to touch any of these issues over the years! I really learned to hate every infantry unit dropping smoke screens for this great"gamey" effects, but on the other hand aircrafts have no problem to spot and shoot at everything on the map, in particular vehicles/bunkers that obviously leave blinking dots on the aircrafts IR detection screens.[:@] Your points about FO´s spotting abilities in the game under particular conditions is excellent! I have a dozen or so german artillery training regulations in my posession and I can´t anywhere find the odd artillery effects we have in this game now. Once an artillery battery succesfully fired observed fire anywhere, it can be considered as beeing "registered"! [;)] Artillery and observation methods in WW2 were quite advanced already (well..at least for some nations). BUT, it was not that advanced that every infantry or non artillery branch crewman could call for Arty. at every opportunity![8\|] Ever noticed you can set afire SPWAW forests beyond anything you can see in california or spain every year, under every weather conditions? Smoke..smoke...smoke. Makes me think it´s just there to hide all those game problems that are not touched. Anyway, is the over effective splash damage thing of area fire fixed already? Hitting friendlies in same hex with enemy too commonly? If not, I would think twice to ask for more area fire opportunities (=through smoke)... Most of the community already accepted that SPWAW was finished with V7.1/8.0 mech.exe and that there would be no more update in the future! Now the suprise, a beeing unasked for V8.4! No wonder that all the voices (mine incl.) raise again, asking for real game fixes! Personally I don´t need any of the V8.4 "fixes", since the real game problems keep untouched. ..oh..btw... has the MegaCam engine been fixed meanwhile?..the beeing unasked for stupid "save " feature removed? ... Unfortunately I can´t go, get the game code as I think it´s time again to give it a tweak and surprise a few people. What is half assed decisions good for anyway?[:-] Sorry, no V8.4 thanks or praise from my side. (well...maybe loadee casualties at best)[;)]

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