62 years ago today.......

62 years ago today....... (Full Version)

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captskillet -> 62 years ago today....... (7/19/2005 2:18:56 PM)
July 19, 1943 America bombs Rome On this day in 1943, the United States bombs railway yards in Rome in an attempt to break the will of the Italian people to resist-as Hitler lectures their leader, Benito Mussolini, on how to prosecute the war further. On July 16, President Franklin Roosevelt and British Prime Minister Winston Churchill appealed to the Italian civilian population to reject Mussolini and Hitler and "live for Italy and civilization." As an "incentive," American bombers raided the city, destroying its railways. Panic broke out among the Romans. Convinced by Mussolini that the Allies would never bomb the holy city, civilians poured into the Italian capital for safety. The bombing did more than shake their security in the city-it shook their confidence in their leader. The denizens of Rome were not alone in such disillusion. In a meeting in northern Italy, Hitler attempted to revive the flagging spirits of Il Duce, as well as point out his deficiencies as a leader. Afraid that Mussolini, having suffered successive military setbacks, would sue for a separate peace, leaving the Germans alone to battle it out with Allied forces along the Italian peninsula, Hitler decided to meet with his onetime role model to lecture him on the manly art of war. Mussolini remained uncharacteristically silent during the harangue, partly due to his own poor German (he would request a translated synopsis of the meeting later), partly due to his fear of Hitler's response should he tell the truth-that Italy was beaten and could not continue to fight. Mussolini kept up the charade for his German allies: Italy would press on. But no one believed the brave front anymore. Just a day later, Hitler secretly ordered Field Marshal Erwin Rommel to take command of the occupied Greek Islands, better to "pounce on Italy" if and when Mussolini capitulated to the United States. But within a week, events would take a stunning turn.

Gen.Hoepner -> RE: 62 years ago today....... (7/19/2005 2:58:22 PM)
Many civilians died on that raid. S.Lorenzo area was badly damaged ( an area fully populated and with no military targets). It was a terroristic raid to break our will of fighting, as you said. Few weeks later we showed to the whole world our fierce will and our enourmous courage, betraying our allies and passing on the circus of the victors that bombed our cities with their "so called" liberators. A said period for our flag and our name

Terminus -> RE: 62 years ago today....... (7/19/2005 3:19:54 PM)
Interestingly enough, this seems to be one of the few times in military history where an air raid meant to shake a population's will to fight has actually worked according to plan. Of course, by this time, the will of the Italian civilian populace to keep fighting was rather wobbly.

Gen.Hoepner -> RE: 62 years ago today....... (7/19/2005 3:32:52 PM)
Yes it's true. The British held against Lufwaffe. The Germans held against RAF and USAAF The Japanese held till A-bomb. The russian held against the germans. ....we're the only ones who did not hold our will. Then we argue why all over the western world everybody thinks about italians in a certain way ( Lazy, pizzas, mandolinos etc....you know): when we had the chance to proove our will of fighting, our courage, our HONOUR...we just threw our guns and ran away.....depressing[:o]

Terminus -> RE: 62 years ago today....... (7/19/2005 3:35:03 PM)
Yeah, well... Even though Mussolini did make the trains run on time, there wasn't much support in the Italian population for him taking the country to war.

Speedysteve -> RE: 62 years ago today....... (7/19/2005 3:35:34 PM)
Its a lovely country tho so not all bad [8D]

captskillet -> RE: 62 years ago today....... (7/19/2005 3:41:13 PM)
quote: betraying our allies and passing on the circus of the victors that bombed our cities with their "so called" liberators. I didn't start this topic to get it barred for going political but...... The freakin Nazi's......your Allies [:@] [:-] ........you got the guts to call the Allies/Americans down for killing civilians....you wanna take a guess at how many civilians your ALLIES killed in Air raids on London, Rotterdam, Warsaw and the list goes on not to mention what your glorious leader did to the Ethiopeans!!!! If your country and government hadn't been sleeping with the DEVIL then maybe some of your innocents wouldn't have been in harms way!

Gen.Hoepner -> RE: 62 years ago today....... (7/19/2005 3:43:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Terminus Yeah, well... Even though Mussolini did make the trains run on time, there wasn't much support in the Italian population for him taking the country to war. Well...not so true. Consider that by the end of 44 there were almost 1.000.000 italian volounteers ( 70% of them under 23 years old )that served in the R.S.I. army. Not for Mussolini, nor for Hitler, just for the Honour of Italy, for the Flag. History tends to forget these details but there were still italians that did not accept the shame of the 8th Sempt. 43 and remained loyal to their comrades and to their flag.

Speedysteve -> RE: 62 years ago today....... (7/19/2005 3:47:14 PM)
Careful guys. If it gets heated or political it will be locked

Gen.Hoepner -> RE: 62 years ago today....... (7/19/2005 3:51:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: captskillet quote: betraying our allies and passing on the circus of the victors that bombed our cities with their "so called" liberators. I didn't start this topic to get it barred for going political but...... The freakin Nazi's......your Allies [:@] [:-] ........you got the guts to call the Allies/Americans down for killing civilians....you wanna take a guess at how many civilians your ALLIES killed in Air raids on London, Rotterdam, Warsaw and the list goes on not to mention what your glorious leader did to the Ethiopeans!!!! If your contry and government hadn't been sleeping with the DEVIL then maybe some of your innocents wouldn't in harms way! It's tough for me to explain in english my thoughts..... I did not wanted to say what you've read through my words. It's not a matter of who was the "DEVIL" and who the HOLY...it's something that concerns honour, loyalty and Chivarlyship ( sp??). You start a war with a side. You end the war, no matters what happens, with THAT side. During a football match you cannot just say: ok, my team is losing...i'd go playing with the winners....TOO EASY! I do not say that the allies didn't have to bomb our cities. We bombed theirs and so it's fair that they do the same with ours. What i do not like is that we call them "liberators" when for 3 years of war we've been killing each other and then, when they invade our mother country, we surrender and we pass on their team..... I reapeat: it's not an argument against the allies, it's an argument against ourself!( the italians i mean)

Gen.Hoepner -> RE: 62 years ago today....... (7/19/2005 3:51:52 PM)
It's not politics, it's just history.

captskillet -> RE: 62 years ago today....... (7/19/2005 3:58:36 PM)
quote: it's something that concerns honour, loyalty and Chivarlyship ( sp??). You start a war with a side. You end the war, no matters what happens, with THAT side. ok Gen...maybe I didn;t read it as you meant it............but the way I see it there can be NO HONOR or GLORY in backing an obviously EVIL reg. such as the Nazis...the HONORABLE thing to do was what happened.....get rid of the dictator/government that was leading your country to ruin.

Gen.Hoepner -> RE: 62 years ago today....... (7/19/2005 4:06:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: captskillet quote: it's something that concerns honour, loyalty and Chivarlyship ( sp??). You start a war with a side. You end the war, no matters what happens, with THAT side. ok Gen...maybe I didn;t read it as you meant it............but the way I see it there can be NO HONOR or GLORY in backing an obviously EVIL reg. such as the Nazis...the HONORABLE thing to do was what happened.....get rid of the dictator/government that was leading your country to ruin. you know, those guys that served our Army, those who died on DON river, in Greece, in Tunisia and Libya and all over the theatres, did not know who was the EVIL, who were the bad guys. They just knew that they ate the same sand,the same ice that our german allies did. And they knew who killed their brothers in the trenches of El Alamain and who bombed their wifes at Milano,Genova and Turin....Do you really think that the italians surrendered because of they could see the evil in their gov. while the japs and the germans could not? It's easy to formulate judments years after when you can read history books and know about the Final solution, the Jews, the Camps and all those things. The fact is that our governament ( badoglio's one ) did not abbandon the germans because of their crimes, but just because they were losing. You know...probably for you, the winners, on the other side of the ocean, it's not that important the "italian question"....but for us it's still something that lingers in pubblic opinion...the civil war here never really ended. I'm sorry if i hyjacked ( sp??) your thread...it's just that for me...for us...this is still an unsolved historical problem

Terminus -> RE: 62 years ago today....... (7/19/2005 4:39:03 PM)
To turn the conversation a little away, Hoepner, is that really still a big issue in Italy? That Italy weren't "honourable" during WW2, I mean.

Gen.Hoepner -> RE: 62 years ago today....... (7/19/2005 4:59:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Terminus To turn the conversation a little away, Hoepner, is that really still a big issue in Italy? That Italy weren't "honourable" during WW2, I mean. Italy is STILL torn in two pieces. And when i say torn i mean badly torn. Consider that in Italy those who fought with the R.S.I army after the 8th sept 43 were badly punished after the war. Many were killed between 45 and '47 ( from many sources it seems that more than 80,000 ). The so called "repubblichini" ( means those who were in the RSI army) could not find a job during the post-war period. They were treated as plagued and considered less than sub-humans. Many of RSI soldiers "changed side" in the 50s, when they understood that there was no way to be accepted by the new society rather than declare themself Democratics, Partisans or Comunits. The political Right wing was banned from the new Parliament, and the new filo-american governament made a lot of laws that punished everything that was linked with the Fascism. Those laws remains still today. Now, 4 generations passed by in the last 60 years, but things did not change much. During the 70s hundreds of students have been killed ( by police or by the left-activists ) just because they defined themselfs "neo-fascists", and the State never did anything to stop this slaughter. Today, the question is still discussed a LOT in the medias. Last year a left-oriented famous Italian jornalist ( G.Pansa ) published a book, named "The blood of the losers", that described what the "blacks", the ex-fascists, had to suffer from 45 to 1950, describing the murders, the discrimination and so on.... well this book opened an incredible "querelle" in italy. Every single newspaper, every single TV show talked for months about that. Many many many historicians and politicians attacked G.Pansa for being a betrayer 'cause those "pigs" didn't deserve any mercy....it was amazing to watch the hunger of those young intellectual left-oriented when talking about the italian civil war..... You know.....here it's very difficult to express these feelings, that are NOT neo-fascist, but just historical. Here, is still impossible to buy a book on a german division, and not being called a NAZI....i remember 2 years ago...i was on train towards Milan. I had a book with me ( the DECIMA FLOTTIGLIA MAS by J.V. Borghese ) and a man started to call me fascist...screaming and shouting at me.....with many many others in the train wagon looking at me as if i was an alien....[:-] Here the scars of the civil war are still present in each italian family. Those who had the relatives killed by the Fascist militia will never forgive. Those, like me, who has granfathers and granmothers killed by Italian partisan assassins when the war was already ended or enprisoned for ages just because the did keep fighting the invader, will never forget.

Speedysteve -> RE: 62 years ago today....... (7/19/2005 5:01:19 PM)
Interesting stuff Hoepner. Must say i'm a bit surprised its stil like that. I think even in Germany they are more open than that nowadays....... Steven

Gen.Hoepner -> RE: 62 years ago today....... (7/19/2005 5:04:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Speedy Interesting stuff Hoepner. Must say i'm a bit surprised its stil like that. I think even in Germany they are more open than that nowadays....... Steven For sure Speedy. In germany there's nothing like that. The point is that they did not have any civil war. They did not have their countries divided in two different states fighting each other....i think only italy in WW2 had something like that.

Terminus -> RE: 62 years ago today....... (7/19/2005 5:10:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner For sure Speedy. In germany there's nothing like that. The point is that they did not have any civil war. They did not have their countries divided in two different states fighting each other....i think only italy in WW2 had something like that. At least to as brutal an extent. The monarchist and communist partisan factions in Greece fought a short civil war too, but the Italian civil war was really EVIL!

rtrapasso -> RE: 62 years ago today....... (7/19/2005 5:10:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner quote: ORIGINAL: Speedy Interesting stuff Hoepner. Must say i'm a bit surprised its stil like that. I think even in Germany they are more open than that nowadays....... Steven For sure Speedy. In germany there's nothing like that. The point is that they did not have any civil war. They did not have their countries divided in two different states fighting each other....i think only italy in WW2 had something like that. I think similar stuff happened in the Balkans - and look where they've been at in the last 15 years or so. Yeah, circumstances not entirely analogous, but... At least Italy didn't go that route!

Nikademus -> RE: 62 years ago today....... (7/19/2005 5:14:37 PM)
Thanks for that commentary. I found it interesting also. I've often read about attitudes and the lay of the land in postwar Germany and Japan but admitedly, I'd never thought about the effects in post-war Italy until now. I guess Italy tends to fall under the radar because of the three Axis powers, Italy was the only one to surrender before "total defeat" and was also the country where the general population had the least enthusiasm for the war. Thought provoking.

Gen.Hoepner -> RE: 62 years ago today....... (7/19/2005 5:15:56 PM)
I do not know how things went in other countries for those volaunteers who keep serving in the axis forces will the end of war. I see you come from Denmark Terminus, did you have anything like that for the volounteers of Denmark in the Nordland Division? ...well at least against those who survived the battle of Berlin. Did you( i mean the State of Denmark ) keeps calling them Evil?

Speedysteve -> RE: 62 years ago today....... (7/19/2005 5:18:54 PM)
Interesting question. Terminus? How about Spain come to think of it? I know they weren't part of the Axis but anyone know if after Franco there was a lot of backlash?

Gen.Hoepner -> RE: 62 years ago today....... (7/19/2005 5:24:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nikademus Thanks for that commentary. I found it interesting also. I've often read about attitudes and the lay of the land in postwar Germany and Japan but admitedly, I'd never thought about the effects in post-war Italy until now. I guess Italy tends to fall under the radar because of the three Axis powers, Italy was the only one to surrender before "total defeat" and was also the country where the general population had the least enthusiasm for the war. Thought provoking. Yes, probably we deserve this oblivion. You know what is strange? That here we're all ww2 semi-historicians.....and very few of us ( especially those who come from the winning countries ) do not know what happened in Italy in those terrible 2 years. Those 2 years changed completely the attitude of our people... This oblivion is the main reason why nobody ( or almost ) understands when i talk in a certain way about Honour,Glory and all these stuff when thinking about RSI.

Gen.Hoepner -> RE: 62 years ago today....... (7/19/2005 5:26:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Speedy Interesting question. Terminus? How about Spain come to think of it? I know they weren't part of the Axis but anyone know if after Franco there was a lot of backlash? They had a terrible civil war. And altough a certain degree of "social peace" has been gained since 1979, with Zapatero things seem to be burning up again...but i only heard rumors[;)]

Terminus -> RE: 62 years ago today....... (7/19/2005 5:28:46 PM)
After the war, a lot of Danes who had served in Freikorps Danmark and the Nordland were put in prison. This was on shaky legal ground, because the original call for volunteers to fight in Russia had been actively endorsed by the Danish government. Nowadays, the Ostfront veterans are not considered evil, per se. They served on the wrong side, true, but most people realise that they have to take a less black and white view at the issue, because of the government endorsement. There's a much harder opinion of Danes who collaborated with the German occupation forces in Denmark. Right now, there's a case running against a Danish SS man called S�ren Kam, who's accused of a murder he commited in Denmark in 1943. Kam lives in northern Germany as a German citizen, and the German Constitutional Court has just decided that he can't be extradited to Denmark by way of an EU arrest order because said order would violate his rights as a German citizen. As for Spain, after Franco died, there was one attempt at a military coup, which failed miserably. There was ZERO public support for return to dictatorship.

Nikademus -> RE: 62 years ago today....... (7/19/2005 5:35:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner Yes, probably we deserve this oblivion. quite the opposite. its important for anyone interested in history to see and explore all sides of a conflict and the aftermath of such. Particularily the latter so that one can put a human face on the situation. Its important to remember that all the countries, Axis and Allied both, were countries filled with human beings, each with their own opinions, goals, dreams and experiences. Yes, the Nazis were an evil organziation, yes Facism was a wrong road. But its not enough to simply label and condemn. Its important to understand Understand the underlying drivers that motivated or shepered people to be influenced by such things. By understanding you learn the root causes of how these events came to be and thus can prevent future occurances. Lest history be repeated. Gee....sermon over.... [;)] its also just good to read the human side.....from reading the history of WWII, a large component of how the Nazi regime was able to instill a atmosphere of hate was to do the opposite....make the "enemy" a faceless mercurial enemy, de-humanize them. De-humanizing makes hate easier. Great thing about the Internet. I wasn't even aware of this situation in post-war Italy. I am now. I hate blind spots.

Gen.Hoepner -> RE: 62 years ago today....... (7/19/2005 5:39:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Terminus After the war, a lot of Danes who had served in Freikorps Danmark and the Nordland were put in prison. This was on shaky legal ground, because the original call for volunteers to fight in Russia had been actively endorsed by the Danish government. Nowadays, the Ostfront veterans are not considered evil, per se. They served on the wrong side, true, but most people realise that they have to take a less black and white view at the issue, because of the government endorsement. Well, this is a behavior that i expect from a civilized country. Recognize the relativity of historical points of view and judge the individual choices in the particular contest they were taken. All the european volounteers ( more than 500,000 ) that served in the waffen ss in the eastern front, did not give a dime about hitler or mussolini or whatever. They fought till the end for an Idea, a dream of glory and a dream of a different europe. If we do not understand why 1,000 20 years old french defended Berlin even after Hitler's death, why thousands of Scandinavian volounteers sacrified their lifes defending the reich from Leningrad to Berlin, why an entire spanish division could fight for germany...and why 1.000.000 italians decided to die fighting for their country instead of running away and burn their national flag, ..if we do not try to understand the psycology that lies beneath these phenomena, we will never really understand the war in europe and ABOVE ALL, why Europe is now as it is. IMHO

Terminus -> RE: 62 years ago today....... (7/19/2005 5:52:02 PM)
It is of course easier to take a more nuanced view of history in Denmark because our country didn't almost disintegrate in civil war.

Toast -> RE: 62 years ago today....... (7/19/2005 5:59:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner It's tough for me to explain in english my thoughts..... I did not wanted to say what you've read through my words. It's not a matter of who was the "DEVIL" and who the HOLY...it's something that concerns honour, loyalty and Chivarlyship ( sp??). You start a war with a side. You end the war, no matters what happens, with THAT side. During a football match you cannot just say: ok, my team is losing...i'd go playing with the winners....TOO EASY! Actually this is exactly what resposible governments have always done and should do. WWII was so big and traumatic to the world that i think it has made us think this is how wars should be. But the vast histories of wars before and since show us something else: States do not fight to the death. States do not stand by alles when it is not in their self interest. A responsible governmet, representing the true interests of its citizens should sign a peace treaty if it is obvious it cannot win a war. To do otherwise is to prolong your own citizens pain and suffering for no reason. They should also leave alliances when that alliance no longer serves the interests of the country. To do otherwise is to betray your own citizens. History shows us that WWII was an aberration and that is not how wars normally progress. The biggest reason that it progressed as it did was because the inhumanity of the Nazi and the Inperial Japanese regimes precluded any compromise or treaty with those governments. And the people of those nations either would not or could not change those regimes. The Allies had to forceably remove them from power. It seems to me the Italian governemtn did the only honorable thing: get out of a losing war and drop an alliance that was sure to bring the country to ruin only to serve Nazi Germany's interests.

rtrapasso -> RE: 62 years ago today....... (7/19/2005 6:10:33 PM)
quote: You know what is strange? That here we're all ww2 semi-historicians.....and very few of us ( especially those who come from the winning countries ) do not know what happened in Italy in those terrible 2 years. Those 2 years changed completely the attitude of our people... This oblivion is the main reason why nobody ( or almost ) understands when i talk in a certain way about Honour,Glory and all these stuff when thinking about RSI. I agree it is strange. I have relatives in Italy, and while i am not really in touch with them, i have other relatives that are in touch. Also, i've read accounts of European post-WW2 history (not a lot, i'll admit) - also no mention that i can recall of this civil war. Lastly, even Italian literature seems to gloss this over. Just finished Umberto Eco's Foucault's Pendulum which talks quite a bit about the conflict between pro-German/anti-German forces, and he did not seem to describe it with that much bitterness, and specifically mentions that when the war was over, everything went back to "normal". This seems EXTREMELY STRANGE in light of what you have just revealed. Maybe he/his family wasn't that affected, but still seems peculiar...

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