RE: 1st post and a game opinion (Full Version)

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James Ward -> RE: 1st post and a game opinion (7/21/2005 9:01:21 PM)

<To represent the period, however, if Austria wants to upgrade to levee en masse it should face the consequences. Same with Russia and their antiquated system. The game should provide a good player with a solution to these issues. From a playability issue, that's a fun dilemma to have and also serves to give some historical flavor to the game. >

I think you've hit a nail on the head, for any game. We want lots of choices (no one would suggest completely removing upgrades) and optionsbut what is usually lacking is the 'bad' part of it. If you ever played Fallout II you know what I mean, you could take traits if you wanted and each gave an nice advantage but they also gave a disadvantage. So you had to weigh the benefit vs your style.
A nation only can only improve so much in any area and it's harder to do in areas where they had less experiance in. Doing one thing maybe should take away or make harder getting another especially if it is un-historical (like if Austria wanted to rule the seas then they should be able to TRY but at a great expense to all other areas as they had no real base to build on) .




plasticpanzers -> RE: 1st post and a game opinion (7/21/2005 9:24:18 PM)

I agree James. You should be able to try and duplicate
what other nations do. The problem is that many of
these nations were steeped in generations of doing
things one way only. It would be like a WW2 game
where the US can make kamakaze units and the British
Tiger tanks. There were numerous national, technical,
and historical reasons that they did not. Does not
mean they could not but it would be horrendously
expensive in resourses and/or national morale.
Napoleonic games come in two flavors-
a game where anything goes (ie Risk)
a game where history drives the game (true simulation)
If you want to play the Russians and have British
type army why play the Russians? If you want to be
the Austrians but have French style army why play the
Austrians? Would be easier to simply make a general
map of a mythical world and put the game into that
with no nation names that really existed. They may
have chosen not to do things with this game Malagant.
Does not mean that history played as history is any
where boring. Trying to use the strenths and the
weakenesses of each nations real and historical characteristics should be darn fun! Playing where
there is no real differences other than names is
truly not. Countrys during the Napoleonic wars i
want to continue to stress were each unique in the
manner of which they waged war. To make them the
same basically defeats the purpose of a true game
of the Napoleonic period and you might as well add
air units, wizards, and nuclear weapons! LOL!
Tim (plasticpanzers)




Malagant -> RE: 1st post and a game opinion (7/21/2005 9:25:34 PM)

Maybe we're not playing the same game, but Austria CAN try to rule the seas: She can build up her docks, she can build naval forces there, she can choose Naval Upgrades, which she'll have to build Barracks to get.

All those things take resources away from other things...things like her Army, or improving her Economy.

There ARE 'bad parts' of it.

The same example could be drawn with other nations choosing to do things that they aren't set up for at the start of a scenario, either with geographical, economical, or starting upgrades.

Also keep in mind that Eric has said that all Upgrades are not made equal...some are clearly superior than others. Rocket Artillery is a good example....Britain CHOSE to invest in this system that turned out to be of dubious battlefield value. The same could be said of a player that chose to invest Austria's resources in trying to establish naval dominance. [;)]


Something the original poster said that stuck with me: all armies march at the same speed. That's not true. All armies THAT HAVE NO UPGRADES march at the same speed. In my current 1792 campaign, I've taken March Logistics I, II, and III, and my army marches circles around others. THIS is how the French armies are modeled as moving faster than their Russian or Austrian counterparts.

But why should France be FORCED to make those upgrades?




Malagant -> RE: 1st post and a game opinion (7/21/2005 9:33:27 PM)

And if you want to simply recreate history by being forced to make the same choices as were made historically, then we KNOW what the result will be. Right? There is no point in remaking the same choices that were already made. There is no question what the result will be. There is no GAME...it's simply watching a replay of history.

There are no choices in this game that were not available historically to the leaders of those countries at that time...nuclear weapons and wizards are not an option.

If Russia wanted to emulate the French manner of waging war, what's to stop them? Would there be upheaval in their officer corps? Sure! Would it be expensive and time consuming and take away from investing in their economic future? Sure! Would it be helpful and beneficial to them? Maybe. There's no reason they didn't other than they CHOSE not to.

If I play Russia, I choose to! What's wrong with that?

quote:

were each unique in the
manner of which they waged war


They are unique in this game too...they are unique based on the Upgrades chosen by the ruler...you and me [:)]




plasticpanzers -> RE: 1st post and a game opinion (7/21/2005 9:36:41 PM)

Enjoy! LOL! No offense meant buddy. Perhaps in the
game setup page an option allowing for choosing to
use or not use national characteristics would be a
viable option. I now retire from the field! LOL! I
am off to the Dragon Expo show in Atlanta where i work
with some fantastic people making 1/6th scale armored
vehicles (its a living!...actually not, i loose money
on this and use copious amounts of asprin! LOL!).
Tim (plasticpanzers)
http://www.plasticpanzers.8k.com
"Where unique WW2 armor hides out"




James Ward -> RE: 1st post and a game opinion (7/21/2005 9:42:20 PM)

quote:

Maybe we're not playing the same game, but Austria CAN try to rule the seas: She can build up her docks, she can build naval forces there, she can choose Naval Upgrades, which she'll have to build Barracks to get.


But in real life the cost would be enormous to do this. They had no naval history, no designer, no shipyards, no training, no sailors as it were. For Austira to have ruled the seas back then would have meant not only a slow down in any army improvement but a degradation of their existing army training as the amount of resources required to become a 'sailing nation' in a decade would have been enormous, in effect taking away army upgrades in the game. It would be similiar to the Chinese building a completely armored army in WWII. As Judy Tenuti would say 'It could happen' [:)]

I'm not against you being able to try to do non-historical things but if you want to try there should be negative consequences if what you are doing would change the basic 'character' of the nation.




Malagant -> RE: 1st post and a game opinion (7/21/2005 9:45:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: James Ward

quote:

Maybe we're not playing the same game, but Austria CAN try to rule the seas: She can build up her docks, she can build naval forces there, she can choose Naval Upgrades, which she'll have to build Barracks to get.


But in real life the cost would be enormous to do this. They had no naval history, no designer, no shipyards, no training, no sailors as it were. For Austira to have ruled the seas back then would have meant not only a slow down in any army improvement but a degradation of their existing army training as the amount of resources required to become a 'sailing nation' in a decade would have been enormous, in effect taking away army upgrades in the game. It would be similiar to the Chinese building a completely armored army in WWII. As Judy Tenuti would say 'It could happen' [:)]

I'm not against you being able to try to do non-historical things but if you want to try there should be negative consequences if what you are doing would change the basic 'character' of the nation.



But there are negative consequences! If Austria were to try to build up a Navy in this game, her army would be neglected completely: resources would go building docks and ships, and upgrades would go to Naval upgrades, at the expense of Army or 'National' upgrades!

She CAN do it if she wants, but it's doubtful she'll be successful, and it most certainly wouldn't be wise!! (Though it would be entertaining, and that's the whole point of playing a game, right? [:D])

edit: As for the Chinese armored army: China didn't have the infrastructure or economy to even begin to develop the heavy industry required to build and maintain a large armored force. Compared to the nations of the time period that did, her infrastructure and ecomony were centuries behind.

In CoG, Austria has comparable infrastructure and economy to all the other nations, even Britain. She has the ability, but it's a question of choosing to accept the consequences of not being able to build or maintain a land army. Most players are not going to choose to build up the Austrian navy, for the same reasons the leadership of Austria historically did not. That, IMO, is good game design.





Malagant -> RE: 1st post and a game opinion (7/21/2005 9:47:11 PM)

If you want to field an Austrian army in this game that has all the strenghts and weaknesses of the historical Austrian army, YOU CAN! You simply have to CHOOSE to take the appropriate upgrades, build the appropriate units, don't use competent leaders in your armies, and apply your economy appropriately...

but don't expect the rest of the nations to be forced in to their same historical roles.

Maybe you can find some like-minded people for a PBEM where you all endeavor to drive your nations as they were historically. I don't see how that would be any fun, because we know what the outcome will be, but it sounds like it would work for you! Seems to me your beef is that the AI doesn't choose the same Upgrades or to build the same force mix as was done historically.


All that being said, I agree with you completely about the supply model: at both a tactical and strategic level supply could be improved. I don't think it's a game-breaker, it doesn't detract from the fun for me(except when the enemy cavalry rout my supply wagons on the first turn! [:@]), but could be tweaked a bit.

Enjoy your convention!!









carburo -> RE: 1st post and a game opinion (7/21/2005 11:23:14 PM)

From my limited experience -I haven’t had the time to do anything continually for 40 years- I agree with Malagant’s warning against making the game so historically accurate that at the end there is no game left. I have a lot of books already, if history is what I want.
It would be rather boring playing under the historical accuracy rules. Imagine England starting in 1805: you would have Trafalgar (quick battle), if the AI is nice enough to sail against Nelson, and… hit the subsidize button a lot and read the papers until Napo invades Spain and you have something to do with your army. As Austria all you would be able to do while waiting for Leipzig is surrendering to France, but you could be sure that in 1810 Napo would accept Marie-Louise. I think some historical balance is already in the game: the French army is the best one by a huge margin (except for the Italian Corps), Russia in far from everywhere and can raise huge numbers, Austria and Prussia are comparatively weak and need alliances to survive, and Britain is safe behind it’s fleet, but have a limited army. I would welcome some ways of making it harder to deviate wildly from what seems historically logical, but that’s all. I can think of ships/fleets losing morale and strength after a certain amount of time out of one of its nation’s ports, or merchants not being profitable if they are too far from your bases. This would discurage/avoid the odd turkish merchant in the Baltic, but would leave it as a valid option if the player so wants. Historically, nothing forbade the turks from sending a ship to Sweden, except rationality. They didn’t do it because it was impossible, but because it didn’t make sense. Armies could be subject too to increasing drops in morale if the stay for a long time deep into enemy territory, so that a Turkish army would vanish in its way to Stockholm, or a French one in its way to Russia. Something I would like to see implemented is being out of supply affecting morale as well as causing casualties, and eventually making units disband. I think historical accuracy should be encouraged making “historical” decisions more sound under certain circumstances but not by taking options from the player.
I strongly support the idea of the intercept option. In my current game as France I have had Picton -with a 3000 men inf unit, all that is left of his army- plundering my provinces for three turns while being followed by the 7th Corps. I would add a way for this weak armies/units to surrender or disband automatically if followed by a significantly stronger army. It’s ridiculous when I have a corps following a roaming cossack/guerrilla all over France, and frustrating when I have to chase two or three.
On the more unit types topic all I say is: how many of us actually build plain and light cavalry if we can afford the heavy version? If there is no clear and meaningful difference between units, more types only adds to the confusion. In another post I suggested making light cav weak but easy to rally, so ideal to chase routers; heavies more able to disorder enemy units, sort of a powerful one-shot unit; and lancers weaker against other cav. I would also make all cav more vulnerable to inf fire, to discurage all-cav armies. I like the guard cav option though. An easy-to-rally heavy cav perhaps, but it has to be limited or would ruin everything. Could be linked to the number of other cav units: only one guard for every ten other cav maybe.
While I agree it’s absolutely ahistorical, I don’t find the tactical supply system particularly annoying, except when my caissons start facing the enemy cavalry and far away from my units. On the other hand, the enemy’s ability to build depots all the way to my capital, and sustain them for months, makes no sense at all.




Joram -> RE: 1st post and a game opinion (7/21/2005 11:36:28 PM)

quote:

I have been reading about Napoleon for about 40 plus
years and gameing almost as long (i'm 53).


Dad??? Is that you!!! [:D]

Just kidding. But that describes him and me too an obviously lesser extent.


As many people said, I think you need to balance what makes a good game versus pure historical accuracy. If you put so many restrictions in that you are recreating month-by-month the real war, then what's the point in the game? On the other hand, I do think it's a bit weird to see million man turkish armies marching through Europe and their fleet trapsing around the english channel. Also, hey, who knows, if the Papacy wanted to convert, maybe they would take the Turks as their protectors!!! [sm=00000924.gif]





plasticpanzers -> RE: 1st post and a game opinion (7/21/2005 11:43:02 PM)

hehehe! good one! Just logged on while waiting to
leave for airport. I agree there has to be a balance
between history and fun. I am just suggesting that
with a little more effort more enjoyement can be added
to this game. A choice in the game setup for the player to choose historical for an indepth simulation
or non-historical for a more fun and fast paced game.
(see, i am easy! LOL!) More options really means more
choices and therefore more fun! Add a choice at the
start of the game for the player to choose the type of
game he wants to play. PS: France was never at peace
from 1792 to 1815 (cept for Napy's short vacation to
Elba..). The wars continued somewhere all the time.
Peace!! I love the game!!!
Tim (plasticpanzers)




Jordan -> RE: 1st post and a game opinion (7/22/2005 12:09:09 AM)

quote:

Something the original poster said that stuck with me: all armies march at the same speed. That's not true. All armies THAT HAVE NO UPGRADES march at the same speed. In my current 1792 campaign, I've taken March Logistics I, II, and III, and my army marches circles around others. THIS is how the French armies are modeled as moving faster than their Russian or Austrian counterparts.

But why should France be FORCED to make those upgrades?
quote:



I don't know that it is a question (at least for me) of France having to choose those upgrades. It's a question of Austria being able to easliy choose those upgrades as if they were on a store shelf.

If the Austrian leadership were able to choose the "I want my armies to march faster" option, undoubtedly they would have. Why didn't they if it were that easy? First, they needed a different army structure, a whole new concept of supply, and before either of those they needed to make some tough social choices. A historical game that lets them do so without taking into consideration the things that make Austria into Austria and not France loses something. It loses the idea that when I choose to play Austria, I have to face some of the same social and political reailities that their leaders faced. The developers of COG, who clearly are historically knowledgeable and who also want a marketable product, attempted to abstract these things as best they could (though I think they missed the boat by letting non-France nations have a corps system so easily).

As noted earlier, I for one am not arguing for a strict historical simulation....boring. But I am arguing for differences among nations that make certain choices harder and others easier. It is clearly not simply a matter of "choosing" from a menu (to mix metaphors); it is choosing within the context of Austria, etc.




Malagant -> RE: 1st post and a game opinion (7/22/2005 1:17:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jordan

quote:

Something the original poster said that stuck with me: all armies march at the same speed. That's not true. All armies THAT HAVE NO UPGRADES march at the same speed. In my current 1792 campaign, I've taken March Logistics I, II, and III, and my army marches circles around others. THIS is how the French armies are modeled as moving faster than their Russian or Austrian counterparts.

But why should France be FORCED to make those upgrades?
quote:



I don't know that it is a question (at least for me) of France having to choose those upgrades. It's a question of Austria being able to easliy choose those upgrades as if they were on a store shelf.

If the Austrian leadership were able to choose the "I want my armies to march faster" option, undoubtedly they would have. Why didn't they if it were that easy? First, they needed a different army structure, a whole new concept of supply, and before either of those they needed to make some tough social choices. A historical game that lets them do so without taking into consideration the things that make Austria into Austria and not France loses something. It loses the idea that when I choose to play Austria, I have to face some of the same social and political reailities that their leaders faced. The developers of COG, who clearly are historically knowledgeable and who also want a marketable product, attempted to abstract these things as best they could (though I think they missed the boat by letting non-France nations have a corps system so easily).

As noted earlier, I for one am not arguing for a strict historical simulation....boring. But I am arguing for differences among nations that make certain choices harder and others easier. It is clearly not simply a matter of "choosing" from a menu (to mix metaphors); it is choosing within the context of Austria, etc.



Your quotes confused me [X(]

I think for Austria to get an army that moves fast it not only needs to 'choose from the menu', but also invest heavily in barracks and Culture to get more upgrades, and rearrange it's army structure to use more Corps. This will all come at the expense of other things. If one were to choose to do this with Austria, they'd end up with a fast moving army that might get it's virtual butt kicked by someone that's focused more 'pointy-end' advances.

Perhaps what you're asking for is more 'pressure' on a player to perform certain things, or restrict his choices, based on the country's feudal setting?





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