RE: B-17s and Warships

RE: B-17s and Warships (Full Version)

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Tanaka -> RE: B-17s and Warships (7/21/2005 11:42:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Feinder Besides the SINGLE attack by Nells on PoW/Repulse, show me where Bettys and Nells regulary managed to put topedoes into Allied vessels. Oh, but you weren't going to complain about that bit of fantasy, were you. -F- http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=774340&key=betty%2Ctorpedo The next day, the carriers again launched strikes on Formosa. During the ensuing night retirement, the formation again came under attack by Japanese torpedo-carrying "Betties" which struck home this time and damaged Canberra (CA-70). The Sullivans then helped to protect the damaged cruiser. On the 14th, "Betty" torpedo bombers scored against Houston (CL-81). The Sullivans soon joined the screen which guarded the two battle-battered cruisers as they retired toward Ulithi. http://www.sullivans.navy.mil/dd537.html The Japanese attempted to strike back through the air. On the 18th the ship's guns claimed their first victim but four days later a Japanese "Betty" bomber sneaked in, flying low over the still-contested Saipan hills and found two anchored battleships. Crossing the bow of USS Pennsylvania (BB 38), she dropped a torpedo which opened a gaping hole in Maryland's bow, portside. http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/ships/battleships/maryland/bb46-md.html The Japanese tried again the next day, this time with 27 "Betty" bombers fitted with aerial torpedos and an escort of 15 "Zeros". Once more, they failed to locate the U.S. aircraft carriers, but made a daring low-level torpedo attack on the Vice Admiral Turner's amphibious force. Turner skillfully maneuvered his ships in the sound between Guadalcanal and Tulagi, throwing off the enemy's aim. Only one torpedo scored, hitting destroyer Jarvis in the bow. http://www.thehistorynet.com/wwii/bltacticaljudgmentgiffen/index1.html The invasion was deceptively easy; the Japanese were taken by surprise. It couldn't last and, on the following day, WILSON helped to fight off dozens of Japanese "Betty" twin-engined torpedo bombers as the enemy air fleet struck at the transports in the anchorage. A destroyer and a transport succumbed to the attack. WILSON was ordered to take the place of the stricken destroyer. http://www.destroyers.org/nl-histories/dd408-nl.htm As the Bettys entered Chicago's circle of escorts, additional Wildcats joined the fray: the four Kilpatrick and Porter had left behind, as well as four more led by CDR Jimmy Flatley. Despite the vigorous anti-aircraft fire from ships below, the airmen pressed home their attacks. Flying at masthead level, the Wildcats' .50-calibers brought down one bomber, then three more, and as the enemy fled Task Force 18's defensive circle, two or three more. By most accounts, a single Betty survived the attack. But the well-trained enemy crews had completed their mission. Despite a desperate, last minute attempt by Navajo to turn Chicago's bow to the attackers, four torpedoes slammed against the cruiser's already-battered starboard side and detonated. A fifth torpedo struck destroyer La Vallette DD-448, killing 21. In moments it was clear Chicago's fate was sealed, and she was ordered abandoned. In her remaining 20 minutes of service, her men calmly evacuated their wounded and then abandoned ship themselves: 1049 survivors were rescued. At approximately 1715, the cruiser rolled to starboard and slipped under the waves, stern first. Chicago was the last major American warship lost in the struggle for Guadalcanal. http://www.cv6.org/1943/rennell/default.htm He was spot on, a desperate, and well pressed home attack was carried out by Japanese twin engined torpedo carrying Betty Bombers. 16 were shot down, and we lost 12 carrier borne aircraft. It was the first time that I had been subjected to an enemy air attack, I was staggered just how the Japanese Betty’s could fly through so much flak thrown up by the Fleet’s AA guns, and come through unscathed. I thought no aircraft could survive such a barrage, but they did, as on they came to drop a deadly torpedo at the last moment, then pull into a steep climb trying to escape and head for home, all very scary. It was fortunate at this early stage of the war against Japan, that the frightful weapon of the Kamikaze Aircraft had not been conceived. US Destroyer Mugford was hit, with 22 of her crew dead. http://www.ahoy.tk-jk.net/Solomons/PreludetoNavalActionsinth.html quote: ....Lexington sailed to raid Kwajalein 4 December. Her morning strike destroyed a cargo ship, damaged two cruisers, and accounted for 30 enemy aircraft. Her gunners splashed two of the enemy torpedo planes that attacked at midday, and opened fire ag ain at 1920 that night when a mayor air attack began. At 2322 parachute flares silhouetted the carrier, and 10 minutes later she was hit by a torpedo to starboard, knocking out her steering gear.... ... During a Japanese counterattack 20 November, Independence was attacked by a group of planes low on the water. Six were shot down, but the planes managed to launch at least five torpedoes one of which scored a hit on the carrier's starboard quarter. Seriously damaged, the ship steamed to Funafuti 23 November for repairs.... ...On 27 January, she sailed from Noumea to escort a Guadalcanal convoy. On the night of the 29th, as the ships approached to that bitterly contested island, Japanese aircraft attacked the force and the Battle of Rennell Island was underway. During the attacks, two burning Japanese planes silhouetted CHICAGO, providing light for torpedo attacks; two hits caused severe flooding and loss of power. By the time the attack ended, fine work on board had checked CHICAGO's list. LOUISVILLE (CA-28) took the disabled ship in tow and was relieved by a tug the following morning. During the afternoon, the Japanese attacked again and, despite heavy losses, managed to hit the disabled cruiser with four more torpedoes which sank her at 11d 25m S., 160d 56m E... Source: DANFS on Hazegray quote: ....Three fast carrier groups arrived undetected daybreak of the 17th, sinking two destroyers and 200,000 ton s of merchant shipping in 2 days of almost continuous attacks. Moreover, the carrier raid demonstrated Truk's vulnerability and thereby greatly curtailed its usefulness to the Japanese as a base. The night of 17 February 1944 an aerial torpedo struck Intrepid's starboard quarter, 15 feet below her waterline, flooding several compartments and jamming her rudder hard to port.... ...In a devastating 3 days of attacks, naval air forces did much to destroy Formosa as a supporting base for the Japanese in the island battles still to come. Japanese forces retaliated with heavy and repeated land-based aircraft attacks. HOUSTON splashed four aircraft in one attack on 12 October, and helped repel another attack next day, in which CANBERRA suffered damage. Taking CANBERRA's old station 14 October, HOUSTON and other ships met another heavy raid. Her gunners shot down three of the attackers but a fourth's torpedo hit her engine room, causing loss of power....

Halsey -> RE: B-17s and Warships (7/21/2005 11:46:42 PM)
1001 times. This is a game. This is a simulation. Some is historical. A lot of it isn't.[:D]

Kereguelen -> RE: B-17s and Warships (7/21/2005 11:55:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rtrapasso quote: Problem is that since B-17's were never used historically at 6000 ft against warships at sea, the results we get doing so in WITP is just somebody's guess. Again, B-24s WERE employed in this fashion with good results. B-17s had been largely phased out of front-line duties by that point. Well, this is not the first thread about the naval attack capabilities of US heavy bombers (and certainly not the last). I always wondered for what purpose the USN historically used their own Liberators (PB4Y-1 and PB4Y-2). Many were needed to close the "Atlantic Gap" against the German U-Boats, but the others? Seems that quite a lot were in the Pacific (not surprising, considering that the USN received about 1,000 PB4Y-1 and 800 PB4Y-2). Guess that they did not realize how worthless the B-17 had been! Stupid USN, stubbornly employing heavy bombers that were useless in the anti-shipping role in the SOPAC[:-].

bilbow -> RE: B-17s and Warships (7/22/2005 12:20:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Halsey 1001 times. This is a game. This is a simulation. Some is historical. A lot of it isn't.[:D] And NO game will ever be completely historical simply because of the hindsight factor. We all know what happened, and will play to try to improve on that. That's why it's called a game!

Bradley7735 -> RE: B-17s and Warships (7/22/2005 12:26:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kereguelen quote: ORIGINAL: rtrapasso quote: Problem is that since B-17's were never used historically at 6000 ft against warships at sea, the results we get doing so in WITP is just somebody's guess. Again, B-24s WERE employed in this fashion with good results. B-17s had been largely phased out of front-line duties by that point. Well, this is not the first thread about the naval attack capabilities of US heavy bombers (and certainly not the last). I always wondered for what purpose the USN historically used their own Liberators (PB4Y-1 and PB4Y-2). Many were needed to close the "Atlantic Gap" against the German U-Boats, but the others? Seems that quite a lot were in the Pacific (not surprising, considering that the USN received about 1,000 PB4Y-1 and 800 PB4Y-2). Guess that they did not realize how worthless the B-17 had been! Stupid USN, stubbornly employing heavy bombers that were useless in the anti-shipping role in the SOPAC[:-]. B-24's sank the Abukuma. Granted, she was damaged already, but it was US 4e bombers that finished her.

anarchyintheuk -> RE: B-17s and Warships (7/22/2005 12:28:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kereguelen quote: ORIGINAL: rtrapasso quote: Problem is that since B-17's were never used historically at 6000 ft against warships at sea, the results we get doing so in WITP is just somebody's guess. Again, B-24s WERE employed in this fashion with good results. B-17s had been largely phased out of front-line duties by that point. Well, this is not the first thread about the naval attack capabilities of US heavy bombers (and certainly not the last). I always wondered for what purpose the USN historically used their own Liberators (PB4Y-1 and PB4Y-2). Many were needed to close the "Atlantic Gap" against the German U-Boats, but the others? Seems that quite a lot were in the Pacific (not surprising, considering that the USN received about 1,000 PB4Y-1 and 800 PB4Y-2). Guess that they did not realize how worthless the B-17 had been! Stupid USN, stubbornly employing heavy bombers that were useless in the anti-shipping role in the SOPAC[:-]. During the early part of the war the USN found out how vunerable Catalinas were in contested or semi-contested airspace, so they needed a long range search a/c that could take some punishment and at least defend itself from other patrol aircraft. I think even IJN floatplanes went after Catalinas. B-24 fit the bill.

Feinder -> RE: B-17s and Warships (7/22/2005 12:30:54 AM)
Wednesday 10 December 1941 B-17's, P-40's, and P-35's attack a convoy landing troops and equipment at Vigan and at Aparri in N.Luzon. 1 transport at Vigan is destroyed. The strikes include the much publicized attack of Captain Colin P Kelly Jr of the 14th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 7th Bombardment Group (Heavy) on a warship off Aparri. Captain Kelly, who is killed when his B-17 is shot down by fighters as he is returning to Clark Field, is later posthumously awarded the Distinguished Service Cross (DSC) for destroying a battleship. However, later information reveals that he attacked the heavy cruiser ASHIGARA, probably scoring near misses. Monday 22 December 1941 9 B-17's from Batchelor Field near Darwin, Northern Territory, Australia, attack shipping in Davao Bay, Mindanao Island and land at Del Monte on Mindanao Island. HQ 7th Bombardment Group (Heavy) and the ground echelon of it's 9th, 11th and 22d Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy) and attached 88th Reconnaissance Squadron (Heavy) arrive at Brisbane, Australia from the US. The air echelons of the 9th and 11th are enroute from the US to Australia with B-17's; the air echelons of the 22d and 88th are operating from Hickam Field, Oahu, Territory of Hawaii until 5 January 1942 and 10 February 1942 respectively with B-17's. The 16th, 17th and 91st Bombardment Squadrons (Light), 27th Bombardment Group (Light) transfer from Ft William McKinley to Lipa Airfield, San Fernando and San Marceleno, Luzon respectively without aircraft. Tuesday 23 December 1941 4 B-17's take off from Del Monte on Mindanao Island after midnight during the night of 22/23 Dec and bomb shipping in Lingayen Gulf, Luzon. 12 P-4O's and 6 P-35's strafe forces landing in San Miguel Bay on Luzon. The Far East Air Force comes under control of the newly-created US Forces in Australia (USFIA). Major General Lewis H. Brereton, Commanding General Far East Air Force, receives orders establishing HQ Far East Air Force at Darwin, Northern Territory, Australia. Wednesday 24 December 1941 3 B-17's fly from Del Monte, Mindanao Island during the night of 24/25 Dec, bomb the airfield and shipping at Davao on Mindanao Island and land at Batchelor Field near Darwin, Northern Territory, Australia. 2 airplanes leave Manila, Luzon for Darwin with personnel of HQ Far East Air Force. Army Air Force units on Luzon, as well as ground forces, begin moving to Bataan Peninsula. HQ 19th Bombardment Group (Heavy) and the air echelon of the 28th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy) transfer from Clark Field, Luzon to Batchelor Field with B-17's. The ground echelon of the 28th will fight as infantry on Luzon and Mindanao. The air echelon of the 14th Bombardment Group (Heavy), 7th Bombardment Group (Heavy) begins operating from Batchelor Field with B-17's. The ground echelon is still at Clark Field, Luzon. The air echelons of the 16th, 17th and 91st Bombardment Squadrons (Light), 27th Bombardment Group (Light) begin operating from Brisbane, Queensland, Australia with A-24's. The ground echelons will fight as infantry on Luzon. The 17th Pursuit Squadron (Interceptor), 24th Pursuit Group (Interceptor) ceases operating from Clark Field, Luzon with P-40's. Monday 5 January 1942 B-17's from Malang, Java stage through Samarinda, Borneo during the night of 4/5 January and attack shipping in Davao Bay on Mindanao Island, Philippine Islands. US Forces in Australia (USFIA), which controls FEAF, is redesignated US Army Forces in Australia (USAFIA), and Major General George H Brett assumes command. The ground echelons of the 17th and 91st Bombardment Squadrons (Light), 27th Bombardment Group (Light), transfer from Limay to Bataan Peninsula, Luzon, Philippine Islands. The air echelons are operating from Brisbane, Queensland, Australia with A-24's. Friday 9 January 1942 B-17's, flying out of Kendari, Celebes Island, strike shipping in Davao Bay, Mindanao, Philippine Islands. Sunday 11 January 1942 B-17's, out of Malang, Java, attack Japanese landing forces on Tarakan Island off Borneo. Saturday 17 January 1942 On Celebes Island, B-17's from Malang, Java, staging through Kendari, hit Langoan Airfield and ships in Menado Bay. Monday 19 January 1942 B-17's, flying out of Malang, Java, attack shipping at Jolo Island in the Philippine Islands. The air echelon of the 9th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 7th Bombardment Group (Heavy), transfers from Singosari to Jogjakarta, Java with B-17's. The ground echelon is at Brisbane, Queensland, Australia. The air echelons of the 11th and 22d Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy), 7th Bombardment Group (Heavy), transfer from Singosari to Jogjakarta, Java with B-17's; the ground echelons transfer from Brisbane, Queensland, Australia to Jogjakarta. Thursday 22 January 1942 From this date through 3 Feb, B-17's launch at least 15 missions out of Malang, Java against shipping moving through Makassar Strait between Borneo and Celebes Island. 4 missions abort due to bad weather, 6 end with negative results, and the remaining 5 suffer heavy losses but sink 4 ships. Monday 2 February 1942 Bad weather from now until 18 Feb, along with effective interception by fighters, thwarts attempts of heavy bombers in Java to deliver damaging blows on shipping and airfields in the Netherlands East Indies (NEI). B-17's strikes from Singosari, Java against shipping at Balikpapan, Borneo on 9 Feb and an airfield at Kendari, Celebes Island on 9 Feb are repulsed by fighter attacks. B-17's on a shipping strike claim hits on a carrier near Sinjai, Sumatra. Tuesday 3 February 1942 Bad weather from now until 18 February, along with effective interception by fighters, thwarts attempts of heavy bombers in Java to deliver damaging blows on shipping and airfields in the Netherlands East Indies (NEI). B-17's strikes from Singosari, Java against shipping at Balikpapan, Borneo on 9 Feb and an airfield at Kendari, Celebes Island on 9 Feb are repulsed by fighter attacks. B-17's on a shipping strike claim hits on a carrier near Sinjai, Sumatra. Monday 9 February 1942 Between now and 18 February, heavy bombers fly at lesst 14 missions, but they result in claims of only 3 hits on shipping. Thursday 19 February 1942 In the NEI, A-24's, with P-40 escort, and B-17's operating out of Malang, Madioen, and Jogjakarta, Java, attack vessels landing troops on Bali; the attacks, carried out during the aftenoon of 19 Feb and throughout the morning of 20 Feb, cause considerable damage to vessels but fail to halt the landings; P-40's shoot down or turn back seversl bombers sweeping W over Java. Japanese aircraft attack Darwin, Australia, bombing vessels loaded with troops destined for the defense of Koepang on Timor Island; 10 P-40's sent to Darwin to escort the convoy are almost entirely wiped out by the attack. Friday 27 February 1942 The Battle of Java Sea. Allied air and naval units try to stop a convoy of some 80 ships approaching Java from the Northeast. All available B-17's, A-24's, P-40's and LB-30's are put into the air but achieve only insignificant results. An Allied naval force, 5 cruisers and 11 destroyers, under Rear Admiral Karel W Doorman, Royal Netherlands Navy, meets the enemy near Surabaya, Java and is decisively defeated, losing 5 ships. Most of the 5th Air Force ground echelon in Java is evacusted by sea. The SS Sea Witch delivers 27 crated P-40's to Tjilatjap, Java, but these will be destroyed to prevent their falling into Japanese hands. 32 P-40's aboard the Seaplane Tender USS Langley (AV-3), which sailed from Australia for India on 23 February, are lost when the USS Langley is sunk by aircraft 100 mi (160 km) South of Tjilatjsp. The pilots are rescued by other vessels in the convoy, but the enemy sinks these ships with the exception of a destroyer, which delivers 2 of the pilots to Perth, Australia. 13th Reconnaissance Squadron (Heavy), 43d Bombardment Group (Heavy), arrives at Melbourne, Australia from the US with B-17's; first mission is October 1942. Friday 27 February 1942 The Battle of Java Sea. Allied air and naval units try to stop a convoy of some 80 ships approaching Java from the Northeast. All available B-17's, A-24's, P-40's and LB-30's are put into the air but achieve only insignificant results. An Allied naval force, 5 cruisers and 11 destroyers, under Rear Admiral Karel W Doorman, Royal Netherlands Navy, meets the enemy near Surabaya, Java and is decisively defeated, losing 5 ships. Most of the 5th Air Force ground echelon in Java is evacusted by sea. The SS Sea Witch delivers 27 crated P-40's to Tjilatjap, Java, but these will be destroyed to prevent their falling into Japanese hands. 32 P-40's aboard the Seaplane Tender USS Langley (AV-3), which sailed from Australia for India on 23 February, are lost when the USS Langley is sunk by aircraft 100 mi (160 km) South of Tjilatjsp. The pilots are rescued by other vessels in the convoy, but the enemy sinks these ships with the exception of a destroyer, which delivers 2 of the pilots to Perth, Australia. 13th Reconnaissance Squadron (Heavy), 43d Bombardment Group (Heavy), arrives at Melbourne, Australia from the US with B-17's; first mission is October 1942. Saturday, 9 May, 1942 8 B-26's and a single B-17 attack shipping and seaplanes at Deboyne Island, New Guinea. 8th Bombardment Squadron (Light), 3d Bombardment Group (Light), transfers from Port Moresby, New Guinea to Charters Towers, Australia with A-20's; combat operations continue. Wednesday, 13 May, 1942 B-17's and B-26's hit shipping and the airfield at Rabaul, New Britain Island. 30th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 19th Bombardment Group (Heavy), transfers from Cloncurry to Longreach, Australia with B-17's. Monday, 18 May, 1942 B-17's bomb shipping in Koepang Bay, Timor Island. HQ 19th Bombardment Group (Heavy) and 93d Bombardment Squadron (Heavy) transfers from Garbutt Field to Longreach, Australia with B-17's. Detachment of 28th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 19th Bombardment Group (Heavy), ceases operating from Perth and returns to Longreach, Australia with B-17's Friday, 19 June, 1942 B-17s pound shipping and Vunakanau Airfield at Rabaul, New Britain Island. Thursday, 23 July, 1942 In New Guinea, B-17s, B-26s, A-24s and fighters pound shipping, landing barges, storage dumps, AA positions, and troop concentrations at Buna and Gona as the enemy pushes inland along the Kokoda trail; fighters also hit the harbor at Salamaua. 93d Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 19th Bombardment Group (Heavy), moves from Longreach to Mareeba, Australia with B-17s, B-24s and LB-30s. Thursday, 30 July, 1942 B-17s attack shipping in the Solomon Sea East of the Huon Gulf and South of New Britain Island. Friday, 31 July, 1942 B-17s hit Gona, New Guinea and a nearby transport which had been previously damaged, and bomb Kukum Beach and Lunga landing strip on the North coast of Guadalcanal Island as the US invasion forces leave the Fiji Islands for the Solomon Islands. Saturday, 1 August, 1942 In New Guinea, B-17s attack installations at Gona and shipping 75 mi (121 km) East of Salamaua in Huon Gulf. HQ 43d Bombardment Group (Heavy) moves from Sydney to Torrens Creek, Australia. Sunday, 2 August, 1942 In New Guinea, 1 B-17 flies an unsuccessful strike against a cargo vessel 5 mi (8 km) South of Salamaua while another bombs Gona. 64th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 43d Bombardment Group (Heavy), moves from Daly Waters to Fenton Field, Australia with B-17s; first mission is 13 August. Friday, 7 August, 1942 13 B-17s of the 19th Bombardment Group (Heavy), led by Lieutenant Colonel Richard H Carmichael hit Vunakanau Airfield, New Britain Island, Bismarck Archipelago, in coordination with US Marine Corps (USMC) landings on Guadalcanal Island. B-26s attack Lae, New Guinea, and a B-17 and a B-25 each attack a submarine in the Gulf of Papua. HQ 38th Bombardment Group (Medium) and 405th Bombardment Squadron (Medium) move from Eagle Farms and Ballarat respectively to Breddan Field, Australia with B-25s; first mission is 17 September. Sunday, 9 August, 1942 B-17s bomb shipping and airfields at Rabaul, New Britain Island and Gasmata Island off the South coast of New Britain Island while B-26s hit the harbor area at Salamaua, New Guinea. Wednesday, 12 August, 1942 B-17s bomb shipping at Rabaul, New Britain Island, scoring damaging hits on 3 vessels. 71st Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 38th Bombardment Group (Medium), moves from Batchelor Field to Breddan Field, Australia with B-25s; first mission is 15 September. Thursday, 13 August, 1942 A Japanese convoy, headed toward Basabua near Gona, New Guinea, with 3,000 construction troops, is attacked first by B-17s 76 mi (122 km) NE of Gona, followed by B-26s 20-25 mi (32-40 km) N of Gona and another B-17 attack as the convoy approaches landing position. In New Guinea, Japanese ground forces attack at Deniki, driving Allied forces back about 5 mi (8 km) and firmly securing the Buna-Kokoda trail. Friday, 14 August, 1942 B-17s attack shipping off Gona, New Guinea. Wednesday, 19 August, 1942 B-17s bomb shipping on Faisi Island, Shortland Islands, Solomon Islands. Sunday, 30 August, 1942 B-17s attack shipping in Saint George's Channel between New Ireland and New Britain Islands. Sunday, 6 September, 1942 In New Guinea, P-400s, A-20s, and B-17s strafe and bomb positions, troops, and shipping at Myola, Mubo, Kokoda, Myola Lake, Eora Creek, and Milne Bay; Australian ground forces continue to clear the enemy from the Milne Bay area while Australian troops in the Owen Stanley Range fall back to the vicinity of the Efogi Spur beyond Gap Mountain, where defensive positions are already established. Friday, 11 September, 1942 In New Guinea, A-20s and B-26s hit Efogi and Menari in the Owen Stanley Range and Buna Airfield; B-17s, along with RAAF Hudsons, attack 2 destroyers 20 miles (32 km) East of Normanby Island; a B-17 scores a direct hit on the stern of the destroyer Yayoi, which later sinks Saturday, 12 September, 1942 P-400s, B-26s, A-20s, and B-17s bomb the airfield and strafe barges at Buna, New Guinea. P-40s strafe Gadaibai on Goodenough Island. A B-17 strafes a vessel in Bismarck Sea S of Kavieng, New Ireland Island, Bismarck Archipelago. Sunday, 13 September, 1942 B-26s pound the airfield at Lae, New Guinea. B-17s unsuccessfully attack a cruiser Southeast of Rabaul, New Britain Island, Bismarck Archipelago. P-40s strafe buildings on Goodenough Island. Wednesday, 16 September, 1942 B-17s bomb the wharf and airfield at Rabaul, New Britain Island and airfield on Gasmata Island off the South coast of New Britain Island. In New Guinea, a lone B-17 attacks landing barges in the Sanananda area while a single A-20 bombs and strafes positions at Nauro and Menari in the Efogi area; the Japanese ground offensive toward Port Moresby comes to a halt at Ioribaiwa; Australians are entrenched on Imita Range where they are preparing a counteroffensive. Saturday, 19 September, 1942 In New Guinea, A-20s and B-26s strafe and bomb the airfield at Lae; and the 7th Fighter Squadron, 49th Fighter Group, moves from Batchelor, Australia to Port Moresby with P-40s. B-17s attack cargo vessels near Umboi (Rooke) Island between New Guinea and New Britain Island. A whaling vessel is strafed by fighters off Goodenough Island. Tuesday, 22 September, 1942 In New Guinea, A-20s bomb and strafe occupied areas at Menari, Efogi, Nauro, Yodda, and Kokoda; P-40s strafe AA positions, huts, and barges at Buna and Salamaua and bomb and strafe Wairopi bridge, strafe buildings at Yodda, the airfield at Buna, and AA positions and other targets along the Buna-Kokoda trail; 1 B-25 bombs the North end of Buna Airfield and the coastal end of Sanananda track. B-17s bomb the airfield and shipping at Rabaul, New Britain Island. Thursday, 24 September, 1942 B-17s bomb shipping at Rabaul, New Britain Island. In New Guinea, P-40s and A-20s hit Mubo while B-17s bomb wrecked vessel at Gona; P-40s hit the airfield at Kokoda and targets along the Kokoda-Wairopi trail, including a bridge at Wairopi. Saturday, 26 September, 1942 In New Guinea, A-20s bomb and strafe forces North of Ioribaiwa and along the Efogi-Menari trail in support of the Australian counteroffensive in Papua; and a B-17, along with RAAF aircraft, bomb Buna Airfield. B-17s strike shipping and airfield at Rabaul, New Britain Island. Friday, 2 October, 1942 In the Owen Stanley Range of New Guinea, A-20s bomb and strafe Japanese campsites around Myola and hit several trails in the area, while P-400s strafe bridges at Sirorata and Wairopi and a village Northeast of Wairopi. B-17s bomb shipping and airfield at Rabaul on New Britain Island, Bismarck Archipelago. Thursday, 15 October, 1942 In New Guinea, A-20s and P-40s pound forces South of Templeton's Crossing and at Popondetta; B-25s bomb Salamaua and hit targets in the Owen Stanley Range and in the area around the bridge at Wairopi. A single B-17 attacks shipping near Treasury Islands, Solomon Islands. Sunday, 18 October, 1942 B-17s attack shipping and aircraft in the Faisi area in the Shortland Islands, Solomon Islands, schooners and buildings at Lorengau on Manus Island, Admiralty Islands, Kahili Airfield, and shipping off Kahili, Pupukuna Point, and Buin on Bougainville Island. In New Guinea, B-25s hit Wairopi bridge in the Owen Stanley Range, the village of Mubo, and the dock and occupied area on Pilelo Island; the Fifth AF completes the air movement of most of the 128th Infantry Regiment, 32d Infantry Division, to Wanigela; and the 39th Fighter Squadron, 35th Fighter Group, moves from Townsville, Australia to Port Moresby with P-38s. Sunday, 25 October, 1942 13 B-17s bomb shipping at Rabaul, New Britain Island. In New Guinea, A-20s bomb and strafe the Isurava-Kokoda trail, the W bank of the Kumusi River, and the area North of Asisi as Australian ground forces push toward Kokoda in the Owen Stanley Range; and HQ 38th Bombardment Group (Medium) and the 405th Bombardment Squadron (Medium) move from Townsville, Australia to Port Moresby with B-25s. The 93d Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 19th Bombardment Group (Heavy), begins a movement from Mareeba, Australia to the US. Wednesday, 28 October, 1942 B-17s pound shipping in the harbor at Rabaul, New Britain Island, while B-25s bomb the airfield on Gasmata Island off the South coast of New Britain Island. Thursday, 29 October, 1942 A-20s hit the Isurava-Deniki and Abuari-Kaile trails, New Guinea; B-17s attack shipping in BougainvilleStrait between Buin, Bougainville Island and Faisi Island, Shortland Islands. The 71st Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 38th Bombardment Group (Medium), moves from Townsville, Australia to Port Moresby with B-25s. Friday, 30 October, 1942 B-17s bomb harbor and shipping at Buin, Bougainville Island. Saturday, 31 October, 1942 In New Guinea, A-20s bomb and strafe Nauro and the area to N; B-25s strafe supply trucks Southeast of Gona. B-17s bomb shipping at Rabaul, New Britain Island, and in Buin, Bougainville-Faisi Island-Tonolai, Bougainville Island area. Sunday, 1 November, 1942 B-25s bomb the airfield and dump area at Lae, New Guinea. In the Solomon Islands, B-17s strike shipping in the Buin, Bougainville Island-Faisi Island, Shortland Islands-Tonolai, Bougainville Island area. Kahili Airfield on Bougainville Island is also attacked. A detachment of the 33d Troop Carrier Squadron, 315th Troop Carrier Group, begins operating from Cairns, Queensland, Australia with C-47s (squadron is enroute to Australia from the US). Monday, 2 November, 1942 B-26s bomb Dili, Timor Island, Lesser Sunda Islands. B-17s attack shipping Northeast of Buna, New Guinea while B-25s strike at a convoy South of New Britain Island, Bismarck Archipelago. In New Guinea, Australian ground forces seize Kokoda in the Owen Stanley Range with its airfield after long days of fighting; this will greatly facilitate supply and reinforcement of troops in this area as they push over the mountains toward the Buna-Gona area. Tuesday, 3 November, 1942 B-26s bomb Dili, Timor Island. B-17s bomb the airfield and wharf at Lae, New Guinea, and attack a ship South of Gasmata Island off the S coast of New Britain Island. Wednesday, 4 November, 1942 B-26s bomb Aileu on Timor Island. In New Guinea, B-17s and B-25s bomb the town and harbor of Salamaua; A-20s hit troop concentrations at Oivi, where an Australian attack meets firm resistance; transports fly most of the remainder of the 128th Infantry Regiment, 32d Infantry Division, to Wanigela. HQ 90th Bombardment Group (Heavy) and the 319th, 320th, 321st and 400th Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy) arrive at Iron Range, Queensland, Australia from Hawaii with B-24s (first mission is 13 November). Thursday, 12 November, 1942 B-17s bomb shipping at Tonolai harbor on Bougainville Island. In New Guinea, the 3d Battalion of the 126th Infantry Regiment, US 32d Infantry Division, is airlifted from Port Moresby to Pongani; the troops immediately start overland toward Natunga; the 2nd Battalion, flown in earlier, reaches Bofu. HQ 374th Troop Carrier Group is activated at Brisbane, Australia. Friday, 13 November, 1942 On Bougainville Island, B-17s bomb shipping off Tonolai-Komaleai Point and the airfield at Kahili. A B-17 strafes a schooner in Lorengau harbor on Manus Island, Admiralty Islands. Saturday, 14 November, 1942 In New Guinea, 1 B-25 bombs and strafes the track North of Soputa; Fifth AF aircraft drop bridging equipment at Wairopi on the Kokoda trail where the Australian 25 Brigade is crossing on improvised bridge; US and Australian forces are consolidating at Natunga and in the Oro Bay-Embogu-Embi areas. 2 B-17s attack transport in the Solomon Islands. Sunday, 15 November, 1942 In New Guinea, A-20s strafe targets near Gona while B-25s and B-26s pound AA positions at Buna and Soputa as US and Australian ground forces prepare to move against the Buna-Gona beachhead. B-17s hit shipping at Rabaul, New Britain Island. The 435th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 19th Bombardment Group (Heavy), begins a movement from Townsville, Australia to the US (the squadron will re-equip with B-29s and return to the Pacific in August 45). Wednesday, 18 November, 1942 In New Guinea, B-25s bomb them airfields at Lae and Salamaua; B-17s attack warships 50 miles (80 km) Southwest of Gasmata Island located off the South coast of New Britain Island, 17 miles (27 km) North of Buna, and between Gona and Cape Ward Hunt; B-26s bomb and strafe the area between Cape Endaiadere and Buna. The 28th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 7th Bombardment Group (Heavy), begins a movement from Mareeba, Australia to the US (squadron will return to Guam in January, 1945 with B-29s). Sunday, 22 November, 1942 In New Guinea, A-20s pound trails around Sanananda while B-26s hit the Buna area; B-17s and B-25s hit the airfield at Lae and barges between Lae and Salamaua, and attack warships 68 miles (109 km) SW of Arawe, New Britain Island and elsewhere in the Solomon Sea Tuesday, 24 November, 1942 In New Guinea, A-20s, B-25s, B-26s, B-17s, P-40s, P-39s, and P-400s hit Sanananda Point, the Buna area, the Sanananda-Soputa trail S of Sanananda, and the area between Cape Killerton and Sanananda Point as Allied forces launch a ground assault on The Triangle; the attack is repelled by fierce resistance; B-17s also bomb 2 destroyers and a light cruiser between Lae and Finschhafen. Sunday, 29 November, 1942 In New Guinea, B-17s, P-40s, and A-20s pound the Gona area while B-25s and a single A-20 bomb the airfield at Lae; B-17s intercept a force of 4 troopcarrying destroyers proceeding through Vitiaz Strait between New Britain Island and New Guinea without air cover; the B-17s damage 2 vessels and cause the others to turn back, thus preventing reinforcement of Gona with fresh troops from Rabaul on New Britain Island. Wednesday, 2 December, 1942 In New Guinea, A-20s, B-17s, B-25s and P-400s attack four destroyers off Guna and Gona, and the airfield and positions in the Buna area and between Watutu Point and Cape Killerton. As a result of this attack, the destroyers, originally bound for Gona with 800 reinforcements, lands the troops near the mouth of the Kumment River twelve miles to the north. After a bombardment of Gona, Allied ground forces attack in strength but are again halted short of the village. Thursday, 3 December, 1942 In New Guinea, A-20s, B-25s and P-400s bomb and strafe Sanananda Point and the Buna areas and attack a small torpedo boat in Dyke Acland Bay. During the night of 3/4 Dec, B-17s bomb airfields at Lae and Salamaua. On the ground, the US roadblock on the Soputa-Sanananda trail remains precarious as the Japanese maintain attacks from all sides and hold off US reinforcements. In the Bismarck Archipelago, a lone B-17s attacks a submarine 75 miles southeast of Rabaul, New Britain Island. Monday, 7 December, 1942 In New Guinea, B-25s pound the area around Buna as ground forces attack the village and clear a trench at the southern edge; B-25s also hit the airfield at Lae. B-17s attack a wrecked vessel off Gona and a tanker off Gasmata Island, Bismarck Archipelago. Sunday, 13 December, 1942 In New Guinea, a Japanese convoy of five destroyers is detected off Madang, as it attempts to bring in reinforcements for the beachhead in the Buna area. B-17s and B-24s attack as it moves south but fail to deter its progress. Meanwhile A-20s bomb and strafe the Cape Killerton area while B-17s bomb the Salamaua area. In the Bismarck Archipelago, B-26s hit the airfield on Gasmata Island. Monday, 14 December, 1942 In New Guinea, the five Japanese troop-carrying destroyers attack by Fifth Air Force aircraft yesterday, reach the mouth of the Mambare River and unload without being detected. However, medium and light bombers and fighters, along with Royal Australian Air Force aircraft, subsequently deliver damaging blows against these troops and their supplies and also hit forces along the Kumusi River in the Cape Endaiadere area and along the Mambare River. The five destroyers are attacked off Cape Ward Hunt by medium and heavy bombers. Attacks are also carried out agains the Lae Airfield and the airfield on Gasmata Island, Bismarck Archipelago. On the ground, American troops capture Buna. Tuesday, 15 December 1942 In New Guinea, A-20s hit Japanese forces along the Mambare River while a B-24 bombs a wrecked ship at Gona. Wednesday, 16 December, 1942 In New Guinea, A-20s and B-26s hit forces in the Buna area and at the mouth of the Kumusi River, and strafe barges on the lagoon shoreline south of the Kumusi's mouth. Meanwhile, B-24s attack a wreck off Gona, a cargo vessel in the Bismarck Sea, and a destroyer, two cargo ships and two tankers in the Solomon Sea, southeast of Cape Orford. Friday, 18 December, 1942 In New Guinea, A-20s hit positions at Kurenada in the Cape Endaiadere area while Allied ground forces launch a concerted assault. B-17s attack a convoy in Astrolabe Bay off Madang, while B-24s bomb the Alexishafen area and other B-24s bomb the airfield at Lae and attack the convoy off Madang and a transport northwest of Lorengau. Saturday, 19 December, 1942 In New Guinea, A-20s and B-25s hit the Buna Mission area in which Australian forces attacking The Triangle are halted by fierce crossfire. B-17s and B-24s attack warships, transports and cargo vessels off Madang in Astrolabe Bay and north northwest of Finschhafen off the coast of Huon Peninsula. Meanwhile, B-25 bomb the Lae Airfield. Monday, 21 December, 1942 In New Guinea, B-17s attack vessels in Finschhafen harbor while B-24s carry out single-bomber strikes on a cargo ship north of Finschhafen and barges at the mouth of the Mambare River and off Cape Ward Hunt. Tuesday, 22 December, 1942 In New Guinea, B-25s bomb Maimba mission and the village near Buna when Japanese ground forces continue to resist stubbornly; B-17s hit a ship in the harbor at Arawe. In the Bismarck Archipelago, a single B-24 attacks a transport off Gasmata Island. Wednesday, 23 December, 1942 In New Guinea, A-20s strafe troops near Gona and at Woiba Islands while B-24s attack a cargo ship at Arawe. In the Bismarck Archipelago, B-25s bomb Cape Gloucester Airfield on New Britain Island and attack a ship at Pilelo Island. B-24s carry out single-bomber attacks on a transport west southwest of Cape Orford, a vessel northwest of Lorengau and the Cape Gloucester Airfield. Thursday, 24 December, 1942 In New Guinea, A-20s strafe troops near Kel Kel and along the northern bank of the Amboga River and trail. B-24s, operating singly, bomb Lae, a schooner in Vitiaz Strait, and the harbor at Arawe. In the Bismarck Archipelago, B-17s and B-24s hit shipping and the airfield at Gasmata Island. Friday, 25 December, 1942 In the Bismarck Archipelago, a B-17 attacks a submarine in Wide Bay off New Britain; one B-24 attacks runways at Cape Gloucester Airfield. In New Guinea, a B-24 bombs Lae. Saturday, 26 December, 1942 In the Bismarck Archipelago, heavy bombers carry out single-bomber attacks against Cape Gloucester Airfield on New Britain Island and attack shipping off New Britain. In New Guinea, heavy bombers carry out single-bomber attacks against Finschhafen and Madang. Japanese aircraft from Rabaul, New Britain Island attack Doboduru but are driven off by US fighters. Sunday, 27 December, 1942 In the Bismarck Archipelago, B-17s pound shipping at Rabaul, New Britain Island. In New Guinea, B-26s hit targets in the Gona area while a single B-24 hits the runway at Finschhafen. In their first significant action in the Pacific, a dozen P-38s of the 39th Fighter Squadron, 35th Fighter Group engage some 24 Japanese aircraft, claiming nine Zekes and two Vals shot down for one P-38 damaged. Wednesday, 30 December, 1942 In the Bismarck Archipelago, B-17s bombs shipping at Rabaul, New Britain Island. In New Guinea, A-20s strafe forces in the Duvira Creek area while B-24s carry out single-bomber attacks on the airfield at Lae, Madang Village, and troops and vehicles at Wewak. A B-17 strafes a schooner in Jacquinot Bay. Thursday, 31 December, 1942 In New Guinea, A-20s strafe forces in the Sanananda and Giruwa area and along the Amboga River. B-26s pound forces on the north shore of the Markham River near its mouth, while A-20s strafe parked aircraft at Lae In the Bismarck Archipelago, B-24s operating singly, bomb the airfield on Gasmata Island and attack shipping in Wide Bay and Saint George Channel.

irishman -> RE: B-17s and Warships (7/22/2005 1:16:00 AM)
To be fair, I don't think the post is a complete whinge. As a Japanese player there are 2 sides to it. The B-17 is definitely overpowered/ too accurate. But the other Allied level bombers are UNDERPOWERED! When I see an incoming Blenheim or Hudson anti-ship attack, I sit back, have a glass of wine and laugh! They pose no threat whatsoever and only go after BBs and CAs that they can't hurt anyway. When I see even 2 or 3 B-17 Naval bombers approaching its a panic attack! It's probably a function of the B-17's large bombload (more chances to hit?). The complaint from Japanes fanboys is balanced. Reduce the B-17 vs shipping but OK for an increase in the other LBs. How about restricting B-17/B-29 to strategic roles only?

moses -> RE: B-17s and Warships (7/22/2005 1:27:15 AM)
I really think the solution is just to suppress the airfield. The heavy bombers are REALLLY slow at repairing damaged planes. One good solid airstrike and the bombers are done for at least two weeks. As the allied player you can really only base them at good sized airfields which are fairly well protected from bombardments and airstrikes. Its not hard for Japan to determine which bases might hold the bombers. If you want to drive your ships to these places you either have to do something about the threat or take your lumps.

dpstafford -> RE: B-17s and Warships (7/22/2005 1:33:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: irishman When I see an incoming Blenheim or Hudson anti-ship attack, I sit back, have a glass of wine and laugh! They pose no threat whatsoever and only go after BBs and CAs that they can't hurt anyway. I find this to be particularly mind numbing. That bombers consistently attack ships where they have ZERO chance of scoring a meaningful (penetrating) hit. Maybe they could RANDOMIZE the targets just a little bit more.......

Bradley7735 -> RE: B-17s and Warships (7/22/2005 1:33:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: moses I really think the solution is just to suppress the airfield. The heavy bombers are REALLLY slow at repairing damaged planes. One good solid airstrike and the bombers are done for at least two weeks. As the allied player you can really only base them at good sized airfields which are fairly well protected from bombardments and airstrikes. Its not hard for Japan to determine which bases might hold the bombers. If you want to drive your ships to these places you either have to do something about the threat or take your lumps. Now that's what I call a good post.

Terminus -> RE: B-17s and Warships (7/22/2005 1:50:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: irishman When I see an incoming Blenheim or Hudson anti-ship attack, I sit back, have a glass of wine and laugh! Sorry, Irish, but that's just not true. If they survive long enough to become experienced, Hudsons can be quite effective.

testarossa -> RE: B-17s and Warships (7/22/2005 2:19:51 AM)
May be he meant that bombers keep attacking targets with high visibility score (or whatever it is, which makes LBs attack 1-2 high priority target in TF, which usually a BB). Another issue which drives me nuts is SDBs striking single IJN battleship with 1000 GP bombs and not those 3 CAs in the same TF. In my PBEM with BlackVoid I scored 9 hits with 1000 lb GP bombs on Yamato, resulting in 10 sys damage. And yes LBs are good anti-ship platforms when used against proper targets. Hudsons trashed IJN convoy defended by CAP damaging 8 and sinking 1 AK in my game with JWilkerson. Blenheim is less effective in anti-ship role as it carries only 2 bombs. i think having more bombs even of smaller calibre greatly increase a chance to hit the ship. Il-4 is a very good ship killer considering load of 500 lb and 250 lb AP bombs, but to bring exp of Chinese pilots to acceptable level is a tedious task.

irishman -> RE: B-17s and Warships (7/22/2005 2:26:01 AM)
If they went after APs or AKs I would worry about them, but they only attack BBs and CAs so even a very good aircrew will still have no effect! CVs are always vulnerable but BBs can almost be used as a bait to draw out LBs. Without torpedos they are just cannon fodder. Until the game allows them to go after APs loaded with troops which they would have done in reality even the best LBs are no threat. IRL a trooper with a machine gun would not attack a tank which he couldn't hurt. He would go for the accompanying infantry. In the game the bombers seem to attack the highest value unit even if they can't hurt it! If I'm attacking a TfF with a Carrier that's OK but against BBs? Is there a case for raising the value of a troop carrying AP? They seem to treated the same if they're empty or full.

moses -> RE: B-17s and Warships (7/22/2005 3:08:43 AM)
Yes I really think bombs should have a little more effect even if they don't penetrate. I find it hard to believe that a BB can take 10 hits from 1000 lb bombs and not be seriously damaged. Perhaps someone can provide a historical example of BB's taking this kind of punishment.

testarossa -> RE: B-17s and Warships (7/22/2005 3:30:08 AM)
Damage model will not be changed I'm afraid. Right now It's belt, deck and tower. In RL belt armour was never 315 mm through all the length of the ship. There were a couple of armoured decks, not one. Magazines and powder rooms were additionally armoured. Near misses often caused damage to ship's equipment (sometimes fatal) and flooding, because armoured belt covered submerged part of the ship only partially. All this is not present. We complained about this before and they added big AP bombs. Which made capital ships less invincible to LBA. Forum duellers pointed out before that real ship killer was always torpedo, and torpedoes work fine. Now if developers somehow adjusted pilots’ behaviour, so they (pilots) attack targets, which they can damage, not scare or entertain. Correction to my previous post - I checked my AAR with BlackVoid and here it is: "Looked up Yamato in combat reports, she was hit by 13 bombs. 2 guns knocked out, but sys damage is only a moderate 16. Apparently BBs cannot be sunk by allied bombs at all." It is unknown what sys damage was before the action though.

1275psi -> RE: B-17s and Warships (7/22/2005 4:19:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Terminus quote: ORIGINAL: irishman When I see an incoming Blenheim or Hudson anti-ship attack, I sit back, have a glass of wine and laugh! Sorry, Irish, but that's just not true. If they survive long enough to become experienced, Hudsons can be quite effective. I have to agree here - GAWD, there are so many posts in these forums where it is obvious that conclusions are being drawn from the early periods in the games Give the guys experience -get em trained up -and see what happens -then make some calls. Ive been whacked by experienced hudsons -no sipping wine for me, come mid 43 and start cringing!!![8\|] Anyway -my 2 cent prediction -and I repeat it, the wave of japanese player bleatings is about to begin, and the allied bleatings will fall away as most games steam into 43 and beyond. really, how many PBEM games have cracked mid 43, or even 43 I would love to know[8D] 4 cent prediction -how many crack mid 44 -not many -there aint that many of us jap playing masochists out there[:D][:D][:D] We need to clone a couple of mogamis,zeta's and other -i have no life but this people -put em in a room and demand a game played right through from start to finish -then patch from their recommendations -and then we give em therapy[8\|]

irishman -> RE: B-17s and Warships (7/22/2005 4:25:49 AM)
No harm but I think you need to read ALL of the post . B-17s are too effective at Naval bombing but other other allied LBs are pathetic. The overall balance is probably OK but the balance should be shifted towards Blenheim / Hudson and away from B-17s.

timtom -> RE: B-17s and Warships (7/22/2005 4:35:20 AM)
From Combined Fleet http://www.combinedfleet.com/senkan.htm Yamato: 24 October 1944: Attacked by four Grumman F6F "Hellcat" fighters and 12 SB2C "Helldiver" dive-bombers. They drop five 1000-lb AP and seven AP bombs. The first bomb penetrates the anchor deck, demolishes the port chain locker, explodes below the waterline, blows out a side plate and holes the bow. The mess deck is wrecked. Two bombs hit turret No. 1. One blows a hole above the waterline. Another bomb penetrates through the top deck to the crews' quarters. The YAMATO ships 3, 000 tons of seawater and takes on a five-degree list to port. Damage Control counterfloods and reduces the list to one degree. The YAMATO is down by the bow and maintains a 2-ft, 8-in. bow trim. A "Helldiver" crashes on her fantail. 25 October 1944: Two bombs hit the YAMATO. The first penetrates the forecastle forward and to the right of the main breakwater, demolishing nearby crew's spaces. The second bomb causes slight damage to the side of main gun turret No. 1. 29 March 1945: At Kure. Awaits sailing orders. The YAMATO takes aboard a full supply of ammunition: 1,170 rounds for her 18.1-inch guns, 1,620 rounds for her secondary guns, 13,500 anti-aircraft rounds and 11.5 million for smaller caliber guns. (Naturally stocked as a matter of course at even the most insignificant speck on the map, as we all know). 7 April 1945: The YAMATO is hit by two AP bombs. Smoke rises from the vicinity of the mainmast and a bomb explodes in the same area. The aft secondary battery fire control, secondary gun turret and the air search radar are knocked out. "Helldivers" from the BENNINGTON and the HORNET attack from port. At flank speed, the YAMATO commences a right turn but two 1000-lb AP bombs hit her. The first explodes in the crew's quarters abaft the Type 13 radar shack. The second penetrates the port side of the aft Command station and explodes between the 155-mm gun magazine and main gun turret No. 3's upper powder magazine. It starts a fire that cannot be extinguished and rips a 60-foot hole in the weather deck. Mushashi: 24 October 1944: The MUSASHI, making 24 knots, is attacked by eight Curtiss SB2C "Helldivers" from the INTREPID. Four near-misses around the bow cause minor leaks below the waterline. One 500-lb bomb hits turret No.1 but fails to penetrate its roof armor. A second attack by eight "Helldivers" from the INTREPID scores two bomb hits and five near-misses. A dud penetrates two upper decks, demolishes the crew's head and exits above the waterline. A second bomb strikes portside ahead of 127-mm AA gun No. 4, penetrates two upper decks and explodes on the middle deck in crew space No. 10. Fragments rupture a steam pipe in engine room No. 2 directly below. This engine room and the adjacent boiler room No. 10 fill quickly with superheated steam and are abandoned. The damage results in the loss of the port inboard shaft. The MUSASHI's speed falls off to 22 knots. The MUSASHI undergoes a third attack, this time by 29 aircraft from the USS ESSEX (CV-9) and the USS LEXINGTON (CV-16). The MUSASHI is strafed by two F6F "Hellcats". Then four SB2C "Helldivers" score two near hits starboard amidships and abreast the aft main gun turret No. 3 that cause casualties among the nearby AA gun crews. Next, three flights of "Helldivers" score four bomb hits port side near main gun turret No. 1. Nine of the ENTERPRISE's SB2C "Helldivers" score four 1,000-lb AP bomb hits. The first three strike in the port bow area and cause damage below decks. The entire forward damage control team is annihilated. The fourth bomb wrecks the Chief Steward's office. Seven of the INTREPID's "Helldivers" attack. A 500-lb AP bomb penetrates the right wing of the air defense station and detonates on the first bridge. Both the bridge and the adjacent operations room are set afire. Fifty-two crewmen are killed and 20 wounded, including the MUSASHI's skipper, Admiral Inoguchi. After the fire is extinguished, Inoguchi assumes command from the second bridge. Three bombs detonate in a row portside on the forecastle deck, abreast the forward main gun turrets. They knock out two single and one triple 25-mm AA gun mounts, the main communications room, telegraph room No. 1 and the telephone room. The blast penetrates boiler rooms Nos. 4 and 8. The next two bombs explode on the forecastle deck starboard, abreast the superstructure. They wreck two single and one triple 25-mm AA mounts. The seventh bomb hits the middle AA gun crew shelter, causing extensive damage on the flag deck. The eight bomb explodes portside in crew's space No. 5 and demolishes the nearby hospital. The ninth bomb strikes the forward main gun turret No. 1. Finally, the tenth bomb explodes starboard in the officer's wardroom. Nagato: 24 October 1944: The NAGATO is attacked by seven SB2C "Helldivers" from the USS FRANKLIN (CV-13) and eight F6F "Hellcats" from the USS CABOT (CVL-28). The NAGATO is hit by two bombs and suffers three near misses. The first bomb explodes on the boat deck, damages the air intake of No. 1 boiler room, wrecks casemate guns Nos. 2, 4, disables three more guns and jams 127-mm AA gun No. 2. Due to the damage to the boiler room's air intake, it is shut down and causes one propeller shaft to stop. The NAGATO's speed drops to 22 knots until 1440 when the boiler is put back on. The second bomb penetrates the skylight of crew's canteen, explodes in the after section of the nearby communications room. The canteen, forward radio room and coding room are demolished. The NAGATO has temporarily lost the ability to communicate with the rest of the fleet. Fifty-two crewmembers are killed and 106 wounded in the attack. Four "Hellcats" drop four 500-lb GP bombs and score three near hits in the starboard bow area that hole the NAGATO below the waterline. 25 October 1944: The NAGATO is hit by an AP bomb that penetrates her cable deck and falls into the sea. Another bomb explodes forward outboard and punches a hole in her side. Two bombs wreck the center radio room and a boiler room's air intake. 18 July 1945: Attacked by TBF "Avenger" torpedo-bombers and F6F "Hellcat" fighter-bombers from Task Force 58's USS ESSEX (CV-9), RANDOLPH (CV-15), SHANGRI-LA (CV-38) and BELLEAU WOOD (CVL-24). A new 11.75-inch "Tiny Tim" rocket hits the NAGATO and passes through her stern. She is hit by three 500-lb. bombs. The first hits port side near No. 3 turret. The second hits the bridge and conning tower, demolishes the wheelhouse and kills skipper Admiral Otsuka and several other officers. Otsuka is promoted to Vice Admiral posthumously. After this attack, all her remaining AA armament is moved ashore. Fuso: 24 October 1944: Twenty-six aircraft from Task Group 38.4's USS ENTERPRISE (CV-6) and the FRANKLIN (CV-13) attack Force "C". A bomb penetrates the FUSO's after deck and explodes in the wardroom. This starts a fire in the aviation gasoline tanks near the catapult that destroys her "Pete" floatplanes. By 1000, her crew extinguishes the fire. The FUSO maintains speed. Yamashiro: 24 October 1944: 26 aircraft from Task Group 38. 4's USS ENTERPRISE (CV-6) and FRANKLIN (CV-13) attack Force "C". A bomb hits the FUSO, starts a fire and destroys her floatplanes. Hyaga: 25 October 1944: Near-misses by bombs rupture a hull plate and spray the HYUGA's upper works with splinters. She takes on water and develops a five-degree list due to holes in her anti-torpedo blister that is corrected quickly. 24 July 1945: About 50 aircraft including SB2C "Helldiver" dive-bombers of TICONDEROGA's Air Group 87 and other groups attack the HYUGA. Ten bomb hits and many near misses open the HYUGA's seams and she takes on tons of water. One of the direct hits blows the anchor deck apart. Three others hit the bridge and demolish the right side of the conning tower. Rear Admiral (Vice Admiral posthumously) Kusakawa is killed on the bridge. The HYUGA's crew runs the ship aground in shallow waters at 34-10N, 132-33E. Ise: 25 October 1944: The ISE detects the incoming U.S. planes with her radar and opens fire with her main battery's "sanshiki-dan"shells. During the first attack, the ISE suffers two near misses. During the second attack, there are eight near misses, but one small-caliber bomb explodes on turret No. 2. During the fourth attack, the ISE is attacked by 35 dive-bombers from port and about 50 from starboard. Seven torpedoes are launched from starboard ahead and four from the port quarter. After 34 near misses, the ISE's hull plates rupture near the waterline. She takes on water that causes minor damage to her port boiler rooms. Ninety-five tons of fuel oil in the damaged tanks are contaminated by sea water. A bomb hits outboard of the port catapult and inflicts some 40 to 50 casualties. Other near misses by bombs spray her upper works with splinters. Five crewmen are killed and 71 are injured. 24 July 1945: About 30 aircraft from Vice Admiral (later Admiral) McCain's Task Force 38 attack the ISE. She is hit by a 1,000-lb bomb dropped by an F6F "Hellcat" fighter-bomber from the USS BELLEAU WOOD's (CVL-24) Air Group 31. Bombs hit the starboard bow flight deck, main deck and No. 3 turret. About noon, 30 more carrier-based aircraft attack and score a direct hit on the bridge. Captain Mutaguchi and other bridge personnel are killed. Mutaguchi is promoted to Rear Admiral posthumously. During the day's attacks, the ISE suffers five direct hits and numerous near-misses. About 50 crewmen are killed and many others wounded. The ISE settles by the bow and takes on water. Work begins to pump out her spaces. 28 July 1945: The ISE is attacked by aircraft from Task Force 38's USS TICONDEROGA (CV-14), LEXINGTON (CV-16) and the HANCOCK (CV-17). The ISE is hit by five 1,000-lb bombs dropped by F4U "Corsairs" from the HANCOCK's Air Group 6. During the day, the ISE suffers 18 direct hits and many more near misses from other carrier-based aircraft. At 1400, 18 USAAF B-24 "Liberators" from Okinawa also bomb the ISE, but they score no hits. Kongo: 25 October 1944: The KONGO is attacked by about 20 SB2C "Helldiver" dive-bombers from Vice Admiral (later Admiral) John S. McCain's (former CO of RANGER, CV-4) TF 38.1 The aircraft score five near-misses. One near-miss to starboard amidships dents the KONGO's torpedo bulge and side plating. Sea water contaminates the fuel oil in the damaged tanks. At the stern, another near-miss bends both starboard propellers' blades slightly. Twelve crewmen are killed and 36 wounded in the attacks. Hiei: 14 November 1942: The HIEI, unsteerable and circling at 5 knots, is attacked repeatedly by Marine Grumman TBF "Avenger" torpedo planes of VMSB-131 from Henderson Field and TBFs and Douglas SBD "Dauntless" dive-bombers from the USS ENTERPRISE (CV-2). The HIEI uses "sanshiki-dan" AA shells to fire on the attacking aircraft. The HIEI is hit by 1, 000-lb bombs and torpedoes and takes on more water. The HIEI is hit by one of fifty-six 500-lb bombs dropped by 14 USAAF B-17 bombers of the 11th Heavy Bombardment Group from Espirtu Santo. Abe abandons his towing plan and orders the HIEI beached at Camimbo, Guadalcanal. Six Marine SBD dive-bombers from VMSB-132 at Henderson Field attack the HIEI. Three 1,000-lb bombs hit her. Kirishima: Never struck by bombs (I think). Haruna: 5 June 1942: HARUNA is attacked by SBD. The HARUNA suffers but minor damage. 20 June 1944: Four aircraft from the CABOT's VT-31 score 500-lb. bomb hits on the HARUNA's turret No. 4 and quarterdeck and several near misses. Fifteen crewmen are killed and many others wounded. The bombs damage the HARUNA's hull below the water line and start leakage into a powder magazine, but she is able to maintain 27 knots. 19 March 1945: Vice Admiral (later Admiral) Marc A. Mitscher's (former CO of HORNET, CV-8) Task Force 58 carriers USS ESSEX (CV-9), INTREPID (CV-11), HORNET (CV-12), WASP (CV-18), HANCOCK (CV-19), BENNINGTON (CV-20) and BELLEAU WOOD (CVL-24) make the first carrier attack on the Kure Naval Arsenal. The HARUNA, standing at the roadstead in Etajima Bight is attacked by 15 aircraft, but hit only once on the starboard side aft of the bridge which causes light damage. 12 June 1945: The XXth Air Force at Tinian launches 126 Boeing B-29 "Superfortress" in mission No. 215 against the Kure Naval Arsenal. A bomb hit on the quarterdeck causes light damage to the HARUNA. 24 July 1945: Aircraft from Vice Admiral (later Admiral) John S. "Slew" McCain's (former CO of RANGER, CV-4) Task Force 38 attack Kure. The HARUNA is hit by one bomb portside aft which causes light damage. 28 July 1945: HARUNA is attacked again by the USS WASP's (CV-18) Air Group 86, SHANGRI-LA (CV-38) and other aircraft from Task Force 38. She receives many hits and near misses. At 1300, she is attacked but not hit by over 70 USAAF B-24's of the 7th AF's 11th Bomb Group and other groups based at Yontan Air Base, Okinawa. At 1615, the HARUNA comes under a final heavy attack, and is holed portside. This causes a list that brings the gash inflicted on 24 July under water. The HARUNA takes on tons of water and sinks in shallow water next to a pier at 34-15N, 132-29E. In the two days of attacks, the HARUNA receives nine bomb hits and 65 officers and men are lost.

CapAndGown -> RE: B-17s and Warships (7/22/2005 4:51:14 AM)
To read a post that says "when I see Blenheims attacking, I relax" points to a fundamental problem with hindsight versus any air to ship model. Granted, B-17s were not all that effective against moving ships. But they could hit them and did on occasion. To make it so that B-17s were guaranteed never to hit a ship would encourage even more wildly ahistoric play. The japanese player could effectively ignore the air threat knowing that in the game he was immune to long range air attack. IRL, the japanese could not ignore this threat. Therefore, by having B-17s able to score hits, the game encourages more historical caution than would otherwise be exhibited were they nerfed. This is somewhat similar to the situation with India. Some players think that India should be immune to attack/conquest. But if that were the case, then the allied player would ahistorically commit all his India forces to Burma/DEI instead of taking care to defend the sub-continent. It almost seems to me that at certain points any wargaming model must fudge some aspects to force gamers to take into consideration possibilities that our historical counter-parts worried about, but that we, with hind-sight, find outside the bounds of the possible.

irishman -> RE: B-17s and Warships (7/22/2005 5:00:22 AM)
But again you miss the point of the post. As a Japanese player I laugh at the the Hudson / Blenheim threat. Stick a BB in the area and there is nothing to worry about! I'm not trying to encourage ahistorical play. The other allied LBs should be much more powerful in a naval capacity but the B-17 is not a naval bomber!

witpqs -> RE: B-17s and Warships (7/22/2005 8:49:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: timtom Nagato: Four "Hellcats" drop four 500 lb GP bombs and score three near hits in the starboard bow area that hole the NAGATO below the waterline. Ise: She is hit by a 1,000-lb bomb dropped by an F6F "Hellcat" fighter-bomber The ISE is hit by five 1,000-lb bombs dropped by F4U "Corsairs" Is this right? Hellcats dropping 500 and 1,000 lb bombs and Corsairs dropping 1,000 lb bombs?

testarossa -> RE: B-17s and Warships (7/22/2005 9:22:25 AM)
Corsair was an exceptional fighter (the only other one I can think of was FW-190). To the end of the war there was no real need for Helldiver as any group of Corsairs could be used as ground support or attack group.

witpqs -> RE: B-17s and Warships (7/22/2005 8:27:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: testarossa Corsair was an exceptional fighter (the only other one I can think of was FW-190). To the end of the war there was no real need for Helldiver as any group of Corsairs could be used as ground support or attack group. It's just the size of the bombs delivered by those particular kinds of aircraft that I found surprising. That's why I'm wondering if the report is accurate on that point.

testarossa -> RE: B-17s and Warships (7/22/2005 10:47:11 PM)
Corsair was able to carry two 1000 lb bombs.

Tanaka -> RE: B-17s and Warships (7/25/2005 2:11:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Feinder Wednesday 10 December 1941 B-17's, P-40's, and P-35's attack a convoy landing troops and equipment at Vigan and at Aparri in N.Luzon. 1 transport at Vigan is destroyed. The strikes include the much publicized attack of Captain Colin P Kelly Jr of the 14th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 7th Bombardment Group (Heavy) on a warship off Aparri. Captain Kelly, who is killed when his B-17 is shot down by fighters as he is returning to Clark Field, is later posthumously awarded the Distinguished Service Cross (DSC) for destroying a battleship. However, later information reveals that he attacked the heavy cruiser ASHIGARA, probably scoring near misses. Monday 22 December 1941 9 B-17's from Batchelor Field near Darwin, Northern Territory, Australia, attack shipping in Davao Bay, Mindanao Island and land at Del Monte on Mindanao Island. HQ 7th Bombardment Group (Heavy) and the ground echelon of it's 9th, 11th and 22d Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy) and attached 88th Reconnaissance Squadron (Heavy) arrive at Brisbane, Australia from the US. The air echelons of the 9th and 11th are enroute from the US to Australia with B-17's; the air echelons of the 22d and 88th are operating from Hickam Field, Oahu, Territory of Hawaii until 5 January 1942 and 10 February 1942 respectively with B-17's. The 16th, 17th and 91st Bombardment Squadrons (Light), 27th Bombardment Group (Light) transfer from Ft William McKinley to Lipa Airfield, San Fernando and San Marceleno, Luzon respectively without aircraft. Tuesday 23 December 1941 4 B-17's take off from Del Monte on Mindanao Island after midnight during the night of 22/23 Dec and bomb shipping in Lingayen Gulf, Luzon. 12 P-4O's and 6 P-35's strafe forces landing in San Miguel Bay on Luzon. The Far East Air Force comes under control of the newly-created US Forces in Australia (USFIA). Major General Lewis H. Brereton, Commanding General Far East Air Force, receives orders establishing HQ Far East Air Force at Darwin, Northern Territory, Australia. Wednesday 24 December 1941 3 B-17's fly from Del Monte, Mindanao Island during the night of 24/25 Dec, bomb the airfield and shipping at Davao on Mindanao Island and land at Batchelor Field near Darwin, Northern Territory, Australia. 2 airplanes leave Manila, Luzon for Darwin with personnel of HQ Far East Air Force. Army Air Force units on Luzon, as well as ground forces, begin moving to Bataan Peninsula. HQ 19th Bombardment Group (Heavy) and the air echelon of the 28th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy) transfer from Clark Field, Luzon to Batchelor Field with B-17's. The ground echelon of the 28th will fight as infantry on Luzon and Mindanao. The air echelon of the 14th Bombardment Group (Heavy), 7th Bombardment Group (Heavy) begins operating from Batchelor Field with B-17's. The ground echelon is still at Clark Field, Luzon. The air echelons of the 16th, 17th and 91st Bombardment Squadrons (Light), 27th Bombardment Group (Light) begin operating from Brisbane, Queensland, Australia with A-24's. The ground echelons will fight as infantry on Luzon. The 17th Pursuit Squadron (Interceptor), 24th Pursuit Group (Interceptor) ceases operating from Clark Field, Luzon with P-40's. Monday 5 January 1942 B-17's from Malang, Java stage through Samarinda, Borneo during the night of 4/5 January and attack shipping in Davao Bay on Mindanao Island, Philippine Islands. US Forces in Australia (USFIA), which controls FEAF, is redesignated US Army Forces in Australia (USAFIA), and Major General George H Brett assumes command. The ground echelons of the 17th and 91st Bombardment Squadrons (Light), 27th Bombardment Group (Light), transfer from Limay to Bataan Peninsula, Luzon, Philippine Islands. The air echelons are operating from Brisbane, Queensland, Australia with A-24's. Friday 9 January 1942 B-17's, flying out of Kendari, Celebes Island, strike shipping in Davao Bay, Mindanao, Philippine Islands. Sunday 11 January 1942 B-17's, out of Malang, Java, attack Japanese landing forces on Tarakan Island off Borneo. Saturday 17 January 1942 On Celebes Island, B-17's from Malang, Java, staging through Kendari, hit Langoan Airfield and ships in Menado Bay. Monday 19 January 1942 B-17's, flying out of Malang, Java, attack shipping at Jolo Island in the Philippine Islands. The air echelon of the 9th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 7th Bombardment Group (Heavy), transfers from Singosari to Jogjakarta, Java with B-17's. The ground echelon is at Brisbane, Queensland, Australia. The air echelons of the 11th and 22d Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy), 7th Bombardment Group (Heavy), transfer from Singosari to Jogjakarta, Java with B-17's; the ground echelons transfer from Brisbane, Queensland, Australia to Jogjakarta. Thursday 22 January 1942 From this date through 3 Feb, B-17's launch at least 15 missions out of Malang, Java against shipping moving through Makassar Strait between Borneo and Celebes Island. 4 missions abort due to bad weather, 6 end with negative results, and the remaining 5 suffer heavy losses but sink 4 ships. Monday 2 February 1942 Bad weather from now until 18 Feb, along with effective interception by fighters, thwarts attempts of heavy bombers in Java to deliver damaging blows on shipping and airfields in the Netherlands East Indies (NEI). B-17's strikes from Singosari, Java against shipping at Balikpapan, Borneo on 9 Feb and an airfield at Kendari, Celebes Island on 9 Feb are repulsed by fighter attacks. B-17's on a shipping strike claim hits on a carrier near Sinjai, Sumatra. Tuesday 3 February 1942 Bad weather from now until 18 February, along with effective interception by fighters, thwarts attempts of heavy bombers in Java to deliver damaging blows on shipping and airfields in the Netherlands East Indies (NEI). B-17's strikes from Singosari, Java against shipping at Balikpapan, Borneo on 9 Feb and an airfield at Kendari, Celebes Island on 9 Feb are repulsed by fighter attacks. B-17's on a shipping strike claim hits on a carrier near Sinjai, Sumatra. Monday 9 February 1942 Between now and 18 February, heavy bombers fly at lesst 14 missions, but they result in claims of only 3 hits on shipping. Thursday 19 February 1942 In the NEI, A-24's, with P-40 escort, and B-17's operating out of Malang, Madioen, and Jogjakarta, Java, attack vessels landing troops on Bali; the attacks, carried out during the aftenoon of 19 Feb and throughout the morning of 20 Feb, cause considerable damage to vessels but fail to halt the landings; P-40's shoot down or turn back seversl bombers sweeping W over Java. Japanese aircraft attack Darwin, Australia, bombing vessels loaded with troops destined for the defense of Koepang on Timor Island; 10 P-40's sent to Darwin to escort the convoy are almost entirely wiped out by the attack. Friday 27 February 1942 The Battle of Java Sea. Allied air and naval units try to stop a convoy of some 80 ships approaching Java from the Northeast. All available B-17's, A-24's, P-40's and LB-30's are put into the air but achieve only insignificant results. An Allied naval force, 5 cruisers and 11 destroyers, under Rear Admiral Karel W Doorman, Royal Netherlands Navy, meets the enemy near Surabaya, Java and is decisively defeated, losing 5 ships. Most of the 5th Air Force ground echelon in Java is evacusted by sea. The SS Sea Witch delivers 27 crated P-40's to Tjilatjap, Java, but these will be destroyed to prevent their falling into Japanese hands. 32 P-40's aboard the Seaplane Tender USS Langley (AV-3), which sailed from Australia for India on 23 February, are lost when the USS Langley is sunk by aircraft 100 mi (160 km) South of Tjilatjsp. The pilots are rescued by other vessels in the convoy, but the enemy sinks these ships with the exception of a destroyer, which delivers 2 of the pilots to Perth, Australia. 13th Reconnaissance Squadron (Heavy), 43d Bombardment Group (Heavy), arrives at Melbourne, Australia from the US with B-17's; first mission is October 1942. Friday 27 February 1942 The Battle of Java Sea. Allied air and naval units try to stop a convoy of some 80 ships approaching Java from the Northeast. All available B-17's, A-24's, P-40's and LB-30's are put into the air but achieve only insignificant results. An Allied naval force, 5 cruisers and 11 destroyers, under Rear Admiral Karel W Doorman, Royal Netherlands Navy, meets the enemy near Surabaya, Java and is decisively defeated, losing 5 ships. Most of the 5th Air Force ground echelon in Java is evacusted by sea. The SS Sea Witch delivers 27 crated P-40's to Tjilatjap, Java, but these will be destroyed to prevent their falling into Japanese hands. 32 P-40's aboard the Seaplane Tender USS Langley (AV-3), which sailed from Australia for India on 23 February, are lost when the USS Langley is sunk by aircraft 100 mi (160 km) South of Tjilatjsp. The pilots are rescued by other vessels in the convoy, but the enemy sinks these ships with the exception of a destroyer, which delivers 2 of the pilots to Perth, Australia. 13th Reconnaissance Squadron (Heavy), 43d Bombardment Group (Heavy), arrives at Melbourne, Australia from the US with B-17's; first mission is October 1942. Saturday, 9 May, 1942 8 B-26's and a single B-17 attack shipping and seaplanes at Deboyne Island, New Guinea. 8th Bombardment Squadron (Light), 3d Bombardment Group (Light), transfers from Port Moresby, New Guinea to Charters Towers, Australia with A-20's; combat operations continue. Wednesday, 13 May, 1942 B-17's and B-26's hit shipping and the airfield at Rabaul, New Britain Island. 30th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 19th Bombardment Group (Heavy), transfers from Cloncurry to Longreach, Australia with B-17's. Monday, 18 May, 1942 B-17's bomb shipping in Koepang Bay, Timor Island. HQ 19th Bombardment Group (Heavy) and 93d Bombardment Squadron (Heavy) transfers from Garbutt Field to Longreach, Australia with B-17's. Detachment of 28th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 19th Bombardment Group (Heavy), ceases operating from Perth and returns to Longreach, Australia with B-17's Friday, 19 June, 1942 B-17s pound shipping and Vunakanau Airfield at Rabaul, New Britain Island. Thursday, 23 July, 1942 In New Guinea, B-17s, B-26s, A-24s and fighters pound shipping, landing barges, storage dumps, AA positions, and troop concentrations at Buna and Gona as the enemy pushes inland along the Kokoda trail; fighters also hit the harbor at Salamaua. 93d Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 19th Bombardment Group (Heavy), moves from Longreach to Mareeba, Australia with B-17s, B-24s and LB-30s. Thursday, 30 July, 1942 B-17s attack shipping in the Solomon Sea East of the Huon Gulf and South of New Britain Island. Friday, 31 July, 1942 B-17s hit Gona, New Guinea and a nearby transport which had been previously damaged, and bomb Kukum Beach and Lunga landing strip on the North coast of Guadalcanal Island as the US invasion forces leave the Fiji Islands for the Solomon Islands. Saturday, 1 August, 1942 In New Guinea, B-17s attack installations at Gona and shipping 75 mi (121 km) East of Salamaua in Huon Gulf. HQ 43d Bombardment Group (Heavy) moves from Sydney to Torrens Creek, Australia. Sunday, 2 August, 1942 In New Guinea, 1 B-17 flies an unsuccessful strike against a cargo vessel 5 mi (8 km) South of Salamaua while another bombs Gona. 64th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 43d Bombardment Group (Heavy), moves from Daly Waters to Fenton Field, Australia with B-17s; first mission is 13 August. Friday, 7 August, 1942 13 B-17s of the 19th Bombardment Group (Heavy), led by Lieutenant Colonel Richard H Carmichael hit Vunakanau Airfield, New Britain Island, Bismarck Archipelago, in coordination with US Marine Corps (USMC) landings on Guadalcanal Island. B-26s attack Lae, New Guinea, and a B-17 and a B-25 each attack a submarine in the Gulf of Papua. HQ 38th Bombardment Group (Medium) and 405th Bombardment Squadron (Medium) move from Eagle Farms and Ballarat respectively to Breddan Field, Australia with B-25s; first mission is 17 September. Sunday, 9 August, 1942 B-17s bomb shipping and airfields at Rabaul, New Britain Island and Gasmata Island off the South coast of New Britain Island while B-26s hit the harbor area at Salamaua, New Guinea. Wednesday, 12 August, 1942 B-17s bomb shipping at Rabaul, New Britain Island, scoring damaging hits on 3 vessels. 71st Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 38th Bombardment Group (Medium), moves from Batchelor Field to Breddan Field, Australia with B-25s; first mission is 15 September. Thursday, 13 August, 1942 A Japanese convoy, headed toward Basabua near Gona, New Guinea, with 3,000 construction troops, is attacked first by B-17s 76 mi (122 km) NE of Gona, followed by B-26s 20-25 mi (32-40 km) N of Gona and another B-17 attack as the convoy approaches landing position. In New Guinea, Japanese ground forces attack at Deniki, driving Allied forces back about 5 mi (8 km) and firmly securing the Buna-Kokoda trail. Friday, 14 August, 1942 B-17s attack shipping off Gona, New Guinea. Wednesday, 19 August, 1942 B-17s bomb shipping on Faisi Island, Shortland Islands, Solomon Islands. Sunday, 30 August, 1942 B-17s attack shipping in Saint George's Channel between New Ireland and New Britain Islands. Sunday, 6 September, 1942 In New Guinea, P-400s, A-20s, and B-17s strafe and bomb positions, troops, and shipping at Myola, Mubo, Kokoda, Myola Lake, Eora Creek, and Milne Bay; Australian ground forces continue to clear the enemy from the Milne Bay area while Australian troops in the Owen Stanley Range fall back to the vicinity of the Efogi Spur beyond Gap Mountain, where defensive positions are already established. Friday, 11 September, 1942 In New Guinea, A-20s and B-26s hit Efogi and Menari in the Owen Stanley Range and Buna Airfield; B-17s, along with RAAF Hudsons, attack 2 destroyers 20 miles (32 km) East of Normanby Island; a B-17 scores a direct hit on the stern of the destroyer Yayoi, which later sinks Saturday, 12 September, 1942 P-400s, B-26s, A-20s, and B-17s bomb the airfield and strafe barges at Buna, New Guinea. P-40s strafe Gadaibai on Goodenough Island. A B-17 strafes a vessel in Bismarck Sea S of Kavieng, New Ireland Island, Bismarck Archipelago. Sunday, 13 September, 1942 B-26s pound the airfield at Lae, New Guinea. B-17s unsuccessfully attack a cruiser Southeast of Rabaul, New Britain Island, Bismarck Archipelago. P-40s strafe buildings on Goodenough Island. Wednesday, 16 September, 1942 B-17s bomb the wharf and airfield at Rabaul, New Britain Island and airfield on Gasmata Island off the South coast of New Britain Island. In New Guinea, a lone B-17 attacks landing barges in the Sanananda area while a single A-20 bombs and strafes positions at Nauro and Menari in the Efogi area; the Japanese ground offensive toward Port Moresby comes to a halt at Ioribaiwa; Australians are entrenched on Imita Range where they are preparing a counteroffensive. Saturday, 19 September, 1942 In New Guinea, A-20s and B-26s strafe and bomb the airfield at Lae; and the 7th Fighter Squadron, 49th Fighter Group, moves from Batchelor, Australia to Port Moresby with P-40s. B-17s attack cargo vessels near Umboi (Rooke) Island between New Guinea and New Britain Island. A whaling vessel is strafed by fighters off Goodenough Island. Tuesday, 22 September, 1942 In New Guinea, A-20s bomb and strafe occupied areas at Menari, Efogi, Nauro, Yodda, and Kokoda; P-40s strafe AA positions, huts, and barges at Buna and Salamaua and bomb and strafe Wairopi bridge, strafe buildings at Yodda, the airfield at Buna, and AA positions and other targets along the Buna-Kokoda trail; 1 B-25 bombs the North end of Buna Airfield and the coastal end of Sanananda track. B-17s bomb the airfield and shipping at Rabaul, New Britain Island. Thursday, 24 September, 1942 B-17s bomb shipping at Rabaul, New Britain Island. In New Guinea, P-40s and A-20s hit Mubo while B-17s bomb wrecked vessel at Gona; P-40s hit the airfield at Kokoda and targets along the Kokoda-Wairopi trail, including a bridge at Wairopi. Saturday, 26 September, 1942 In New Guinea, A-20s bomb and strafe forces North of Ioribaiwa and along the Efogi-Menari trail in support of the Australian counteroffensive in Papua; and a B-17, along with RAAF aircraft, bomb Buna Airfield. B-17s strike shipping and airfield at Rabaul, New Britain Island. Friday, 2 October, 1942 In the Owen Stanley Range of New Guinea, A-20s bomb and strafe Japanese campsites around Myola and hit several trails in the area, while P-400s strafe bridges at Sirorata and Wairopi and a village Northeast of Wairopi. B-17s bomb shipping and airfield at Rabaul on New Britain Island, Bismarck Archipelago. Thursday, 15 October, 1942 In New Guinea, A-20s and P-40s pound forces South of Templeton's Crossing and at Popondetta; B-25s bomb Salamaua and hit targets in the Owen Stanley Range and in the area around the bridge at Wairopi. A single B-17 attacks shipping near Treasury Islands, Solomon Islands. Sunday, 18 October, 1942 B-17s attack shipping and aircraft in the Faisi area in the Shortland Islands, Solomon Islands, schooners and buildings at Lorengau on Manus Island, Admiralty Islands, Kahili Airfield, and shipping off Kahili, Pupukuna Point, and Buin on Bougainville Island. In New Guinea, B-25s hit Wairopi bridge in the Owen Stanley Range, the village of Mubo, and the dock and occupied area on Pilelo Island; the Fifth AF completes the air movement of most of the 128th Infantry Regiment, 32d Infantry Division, to Wanigela; and the 39th Fighter Squadron, 35th Fighter Group, moves from Townsville, Australia to Port Moresby with P-38s. Sunday, 25 October, 1942 13 B-17s bomb shipping at Rabaul, New Britain Island. In New Guinea, A-20s bomb and strafe the Isurava-Kokoda trail, the W bank of the Kumusi River, and the area North of Asisi as Australian ground forces push toward Kokoda in the Owen Stanley Range; and HQ 38th Bombardment Group (Medium) and the 405th Bombardment Squadron (Medium) move from Townsville, Australia to Port Moresby with B-25s. The 93d Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 19th Bombardment Group (Heavy), begins a movement from Mareeba, Australia to the US. Wednesday, 28 October, 1942 B-17s pound shipping in the harbor at Rabaul, New Britain Island, while B-25s bomb the airfield on Gasmata Island off the South coast of New Britain Island. Thursday, 29 October, 1942 A-20s hit the Isurava-Deniki and Abuari-Kaile trails, New Guinea; B-17s attack shipping in BougainvilleStrait between Buin, Bougainville Island and Faisi Island, Shortland Islands. The 71st Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 38th Bombardment Group (Medium), moves from Townsville, Australia to Port Moresby with B-25s. Friday, 30 October, 1942 B-17s bomb harbor and shipping at Buin, Bougainville Island. Saturday, 31 October, 1942 In New Guinea, A-20s bomb and strafe Nauro and the area to N; B-25s strafe supply trucks Southeast of Gona. B-17s bomb shipping at Rabaul, New Britain Island, and in Buin, Bougainville-Faisi Island-Tonolai, Bougainville Island area. Sunday, 1 November, 1942 B-25s bomb the airfield and dump area at Lae, New Guinea. In the Solomon Islands, B-17s strike shipping in the Buin, Bougainville Island-Faisi Island, Shortland Islands-Tonolai, Bougainville Island area. Kahili Airfield on Bougainville Island is also attacked. A detachment of the 33d Troop Carrier Squadron, 315th Troop Carrier Group, begins operating from Cairns, Queensland, Australia with C-47s (squadron is enroute to Australia from the US). Monday, 2 November, 1942 B-26s bomb Dili, Timor Island, Lesser Sunda Islands. B-17s attack shipping Northeast of Buna, New Guinea while B-25s strike at a convoy South of New Britain Island, Bismarck Archipelago. In New Guinea, Australian ground forces seize Kokoda in the Owen Stanley Range with its airfield after long days of fighting; this will greatly facilitate supply and reinforcement of troops in this area as they push over the mountains toward the Buna-Gona area. Tuesday, 3 November, 1942 B-26s bomb Dili, Timor Island. B-17s bomb the airfield and wharf at Lae, New Guinea, and attack a ship South of Gasmata Island off the S coast of New Britain Island. Wednesday, 4 November, 1942 B-26s bomb Aileu on Timor Island. In New Guinea, B-17s and B-25s bomb the town and harbor of Salamaua; A-20s hit troop concentrations at Oivi, where an Australian attack meets firm resistance; transports fly most of the remainder of the 128th Infantry Regiment, 32d Infantry Division, to Wanigela. HQ 90th Bombardment Group (Heavy) and the 319th, 320th, 321st and 400th Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy) arrive at Iron Range, Queensland, Australia from Hawaii with B-24s (first mission is 13 November). Thursday, 12 November, 1942 B-17s bomb shipping at Tonolai harbor on Bougainville Island. In New Guinea, the 3d Battalion of the 126th Infantry Regiment, US 32d Infantry Division, is airlifted from Port Moresby to Pongani; the troops immediately start overland toward Natunga; the 2nd Battalion, flown in earlier, reaches Bofu. HQ 374th Troop Carrier Group is activated at Brisbane, Australia. Friday, 13 November, 1942 On Bougainville Island, B-17s bomb shipping off Tonolai-Komaleai Point and the airfield at Kahili. A B-17 strafes a schooner in Lorengau harbor on Manus Island, Admiralty Islands. Saturday, 14 November, 1942 In New Guinea, 1 B-25 bombs and strafes the track North of Soputa; Fifth AF aircraft drop bridging equipment at Wairopi on the Kokoda trail where the Australian 25 Brigade is crossing on improvised bridge; US and Australian forces are consolidating at Natunga and in the Oro Bay-Embogu-Embi areas. 2 B-17s attack transport in the Solomon Islands. Sunday, 15 November, 1942 In New Guinea, A-20s strafe targets near Gona while B-25s and B-26s pound AA positions at Buna and Soputa as US and Australian ground forces prepare to move against the Buna-Gona beachhead. B-17s hit shipping at Rabaul, New Britain Island. The 435th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 19th Bombardment Group (Heavy), begins a movement from Townsville, Australia to the US (the squadron will re-equip with B-29s and return to the Pacific in August 45). Wednesday, 18 November, 1942 In New Guinea, B-25s bomb them airfields at Lae and Salamaua; B-17s attack warships 50 miles (80 km) Southwest of Gasmata Island located off the South coast of New Britain Island, 17 miles (27 km) North of Buna, and between Gona and Cape Ward Hunt; B-26s bomb and strafe the area between Cape Endaiadere and Buna. The 28th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 7th Bombardment Group (Heavy), begins a movement from Mareeba, Australia to the US (squadron will return to Guam in January, 1945 with B-29s). Sunday, 22 November, 1942 In New Guinea, A-20s pound trails around Sanananda while B-26s hit the Buna area; B-17s and B-25s hit the airfield at Lae and barges between Lae and Salamaua, and attack warships 68 miles (109 km) SW of Arawe, New Britain Island and elsewhere in the Solomon Sea Tuesday, 24 November, 1942 In New Guinea, A-20s, B-25s, B-26s, B-17s, P-40s, P-39s, and P-400s hit Sanananda Point, the Buna area, the Sanananda-Soputa trail S of Sanananda, and the area between Cape Killerton and Sanananda Point as Allied forces launch a ground assault on The Triangle; the attack is repelled by fierce resistance; B-17s also bomb 2 destroyers and a light cruiser between Lae and Finschhafen. Sunday, 29 November, 1942 In New Guinea, B-17s, P-40s, and A-20s pound the Gona area while B-25s and a single A-20 bomb the airfield at Lae; B-17s intercept a force of 4 troopcarrying destroyers proceeding through Vitiaz Strait between New Britain Island and New Guinea without air cover; the B-17s damage 2 vessels and cause the others to turn back, thus preventing reinforcement of Gona with fresh troops from Rabaul on New Britain Island. Wednesday, 2 December, 1942 In New Guinea, A-20s, B-17s, B-25s and P-400s attack four destroyers off Guna and Gona, and the airfield and positions in the Buna area and between Watutu Point and Cape Killerton. As a result of this attack, the destroyers, originally bound for Gona with 800 reinforcements, lands the troops near the mouth of the Kumment River twelve miles to the north. After a bombardment of Gona, Allied ground forces attack in strength but are again halted short of the village. Thursday, 3 December, 1942 In New Guinea, A-20s, B-25s and P-400s bomb and strafe Sanananda Point and the Buna areas and attack a small torpedo boat in Dyke Acland Bay. During the night of 3/4 Dec, B-17s bomb airfields at Lae and Salamaua. On the ground, the US roadblock on the Soputa-Sanananda trail remains precarious as the Japanese maintain attacks from all sides and hold off US reinforcements. In the Bismarck Archipelago, a lone B-17s attacks a submarine 75 miles southeast of Rabaul, New Britain Island. Monday, 7 December, 1942 In New Guinea, B-25s pound the area around Buna as ground forces attack the village and clear a trench at the southern edge; B-25s also hit the airfield at Lae. B-17s attack a wrecked vessel off Gona and a tanker off Gasmata Island, Bismarck Archipelago. Sunday, 13 December, 1942 In New Guinea, a Japanese convoy of five destroyers is detected off Madang, as it attempts to bring in reinforcements for the beachhead in the Buna area. B-17s and B-24s attack as it moves south but fail to deter its progress. Meanwhile A-20s bomb and strafe the Cape Killerton area while B-17s bomb the Salamaua area. In the Bismarck Archipelago, B-26s hit the airfield on Gasmata Island. Monday, 14 December, 1942 In New Guinea, the five Japanese troop-carrying destroyers attack by Fifth Air Force aircraft yesterday, reach the mouth of the Mambare River and unload without being detected. However, medium and light bombers and fighters, along with Royal Australian Air Force aircraft, subsequently deliver damaging blows against these troops and their supplies and also hit forces along the Kumusi River in the Cape Endaiadere area and along the Mambare River. The five destroyers are attacked off Cape Ward Hunt by medium and heavy bombers. Attacks are also carried out agains the Lae Airfield and the airfield on Gasmata Island, Bismarck Archipelago. On the ground, American troops capture Buna. Tuesday, 15 December 1942 In New Guinea, A-20s hit Japanese forces along the Mambare River while a B-24 bombs a wrecked ship at Gona. Wednesday, 16 December, 1942 In New Guinea, A-20s and B-26s hit forces in the Buna area and at the mouth of the Kumusi River, and strafe barges on the lagoon shoreline south of the Kumusi's mouth. Meanwhile, B-24s attack a wreck off Gona, a cargo vessel in the Bismarck Sea, and a destroyer, two cargo ships and two tankers in the Solomon Sea, southeast of Cape Orford. Friday, 18 December, 1942 In New Guinea, A-20s hit positions at Kurenada in the Cape Endaiadere area while Allied ground forces launch a concerted assault. B-17s attack a convoy in Astrolabe Bay off Madang, while B-24s bomb the Alexishafen area and other B-24s bomb the airfield at Lae and attack the convoy off Madang and a transport northwest of Lorengau. Saturday, 19 December, 1942 In New Guinea, A-20s and B-25s hit the Buna Mission area in which Australian forces attacking The Triangle are halted by fierce crossfire. B-17s and B-24s attack warships, transports and cargo vessels off Madang in Astrolabe Bay and north northwest of Finschhafen off the coast of Huon Peninsula. Meanwhile, B-25 bomb the Lae Airfield. Monday, 21 December, 1942 In New Guinea, B-17s attack vessels in Finschhafen harbor while B-24s carry out single-bomber strikes on a cargo ship north of Finschhafen and barges at the mouth of the Mambare River and off Cape Ward Hunt. Tuesday, 22 December, 1942 In New Guinea, B-25s bomb Maimba mission and the village near Buna when Japanese ground forces continue to resist stubbornly; B-17s hit a ship in the harbor at Arawe. In the Bismarck Archipelago, a single B-24 attacks a transport off Gasmata Island. Wednesday, 23 December, 1942 In New Guinea, A-20s strafe troops near Gona and at Woiba Islands while B-24s attack a cargo ship at Arawe. In the Bismarck Archipelago, B-25s bomb Cape Gloucester Airfield on New Britain Island and attack a ship at Pilelo Island. B-24s carry out single-bomber attacks on a transport west southwest of Cape Orford, a vessel northwest of Lorengau and the Cape Gloucester Airfield. Thursday, 24 December, 1942 In New Guinea, A-20s strafe troops near Kel Kel and along the northern bank of the Amboga River and trail. B-24s, operating singly, bomb Lae, a schooner in Vitiaz Strait, and the harbor at Arawe. In the Bismarck Archipelago, B-17s and B-24s hit shipping and the airfield at Gasmata Island. Friday, 25 December, 1942 In the Bismarck Archipelago, a B-17 attacks a submarine in Wide Bay off New Britain; one B-24 attacks runways at Cape Gloucester Airfield. In New Guinea, a B-24 bombs Lae. Saturday, 26 December, 1942 In the Bismarck Archipelago, heavy bombers carry out single-bomber attacks against Cape Gloucester Airfield on New Britain Island and attack shipping off New Britain. In New Guinea, heavy bombers carry out single-bomber attacks against Finschhafen and Madang. Japanese aircraft from Rabaul, New Britain Island attack Doboduru but are driven off by US fighters. Sunday, 27 December, 1942 In the Bismarck Archipelago, B-17s pound shipping at Rabaul, New Britain Island. In New Guinea, B-26s hit targets in the Gona area while a single B-24 hits the runway at Finschhafen. In their first significant action in the Pacific, a dozen P-38s of the 39th Fighter Squadron, 35th Fighter Group engage some 24 Japanese aircraft, claiming nine Zekes and two Vals shot down for one P-38 damaged. Wednesday, 30 December, 1942 In the Bismarck Archipelago, B-17s bombs shipping at Rabaul, New Britain Island. In New Guinea, A-20s strafe forces in the Duvira Creek area while B-24s carry out single-bomber attacks on the airfield at Lae, Madang Village, and troops and vehicles at Wewak. A B-17 strafes a schooner in Jacquinot Bay. Thursday, 31 December, 1942 In New Guinea, A-20s strafe forces in the Sanananda and Giruwa area and along the Amboga River. B-26s pound forces on the north shore of the Markham River near its mouth, while A-20s strafe parked aircraft at Lae In the Bismarck Archipelago, B-24s operating singly, bomb the airfield on Gasmata Island and attack shipping in Wide Bay and Saint George Channel. And the purpose of this post is...??? I dont really understand what you are trying to prove here? Are you trying to prove that B-17's attacked ships??? No one is challenging that at all... Are you trying to prove they actually hit or shunk ships??? In all of the examples you cited I think I see one actual warship actually hit or sunk. I have no problem with the way B-17's are modeled in the game and Im not complaining about it at all. I agree with you more than the original poster. I agree that B-17's in the game and Betties and Nells and all the rest of the planes in the whole game do more than they did in real life. But it is just a game and its not perfect...All I did was respond to your question. Sorry if I offended you...

Titanwarrior89 -> RE: B-17s and Warships (7/25/2005 3:47:06 AM)
I would have too agree with ya Mr. Toast. I see it just about the same way.[:)] quote: ORIGINAL: Toast quote: ORIGINAL: testarossa Not to put some more gas into the fire...[:)] Any level bomber will get higher hit probability the lower the altitude. Except the ones with Norden sight which suffer penalty below 5000 ft (or is it 6000?). The consequences are higher Op losses, higher flack losses and drastic drop in morale and something like 20-30 fatigue. This is actually a last resort tool. I used it once for B-17E against the Death Star and scored 1 hit (i lost 9 from 24 a/cs). But i use B-25, B-26 and Hudsons usually on Naval strike with 50% search at 6000ft. As soon as they detect something i reduce range to normal and drop the altitude to 1000 ft and search to 20%. Twin engined bombers suffer much less Op losses, get less fatigue and morale drop is acceptable. The most important factor in level bombing attacks against shipping is number of bombs, experience, and altitude. Of course this is not a dogma, just an opinion. The real question here, to determine if the game is "unrealistic" is how often does this happen in a game. In my 200+ PBEM turns of playing both as the Japanese and the Allies, I have never seen it happen. I've had B-17's plaster a port where several ships were docked and did significant damage, but never a ship at sea. If it is a very rare occurance, I can live with that. It is realistic in my opinion that the B-17's might be able to get a lucky hit every once in a while. If the Japanese put their capital ships in harms way enough, they will get hit by some B-17's. And I think it is not a question of doctrine per se. The Americans thought before the war that the B-17's would be excellant anti-ship weapon. Experience proved otherwise but throughtout the first half of 1942, they tried to employ them that way. And then there is the issue of expediency and theater emergencies. If the KB sailed past a base with B-17's and started to attack Allied shipping to the rear, I think the Allies would have sent the B-17's after the KB. And they could have gotten lucky. As moses pointed out in his post, you made the cardinal sin of placing un-reduced airbases between your carrier force and it's home base. No commander would have left surviving air units across his line of communications. WHen you make bold and risky moves like that, you have to be aware that things can go terribly wrong.

Feinder -> RE: B-17s and Warships (7/25/2005 7:54:51 AM)
It's operational log. It's not down to the level of 2 hits were scored or whatever. There are in fact very FEW post-flight briefings available, at the detail that you are seeking (for dive-bombers or heavy bombers for that matter). You can rest assured that many of those targets were missed entirely. And many of the targets are now reefs. If the heavy bombers were so awful at hitting shipping, why do you suppose they continued the anti-shipping mission with heavy bombers, into the even the Korean War? The powers that be were not THAT dense to keep sending out heavy bombers day after day, when it (according you), they knew they were never hitting anything. "Lets just go drop 30 tons of ordinance into the sea today. We've been doing it now for 6 months. We've never once hit anything. But it's fun. So let's keep doing it for the next 9 years, because one day we just might hit something?" Um. Right. Frankly, the onus is on the detractor to prove that those bombers never hit anything. It disgusts me, and belittles the contribution of the heavy bomber crews, that you would suggest that their contribution to the Pacific Campaign was "nil". -F-

doktorblood -> RE: B-17s and Warships (7/25/2005 10:29:10 AM)
The chance of a Heavy Bomber hitting a ship, even one standing still was almost nil. The Norden bombsight was absoluley useless for such a task. Jap captains wouldn't even bother taking eveasive manuevers when they saw these guys coming. Yes, they did get a couple of lucky hits during the war. The reason they kept sending them out is because the Generals believed their own bullshit about "precision bombing" until late 1944 when they gave up and started using their Heavies properly ... leveling cities with area bombing.

testarossa -> RE: B-17s and Warships (7/25/2005 11:16:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: doktorblood The reason they kept sending them out is because the Generals believed their own bullshit about "precision bombing" until late 1944 when they gave up and started using their Heavies properly ... leveling cities with area bombing. Well, RAF believed that night bombing is a remarkably precise undertaking. So they tried to hit factories, bridges, ports, etc. After the war reading German accounts they found out that during the war no bomb fell within 5 km of target. Unfortunatelly for Germans they switched to terror bombing. And here +/- 10 km was still OK.

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