Protectorate BUG PBEM (Full Version)

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MarcelJV -> Protectorate BUG PBEM (7/25/2005 3:51:55 AM)

When playing in a PBEM game we found that on the second turn of the game that Britian became the protector of Bavaria, Britian was a player and had not choice about this. Prussia became the protector of Thuringa, again no choice. Austria became the protector of Brunswich, again no choice. Is this the way it is supposed to work, as this has lead to Austria and Prussia being at war, as a result of Prussia's first turn declaration of war on Brunswick.

We have also seen the cease fire request is automatically responded too. France asked for a cease fire with Britian and the British player had no chance to decide, it was done for him.

Is this the way it is supposed to work? If so it does make some sense as otherwise in an 8 player game relationship level would mean nothing as the player decide outside of the game play.

Thanks for the great game.



Ralegh -> RE: Protectorate BUG PBEM (7/25/2005 5:25:19 AM)

ROFL - RTFM - this is a feature. You guys may need to restart your game.

On page 74 of the manual - under the PBEM heading - it talks about the settings of the Set Policy screen. It says:

quote:


If aggressive is turned on, then a nation will take any aggressive positions toward that nation whenever they arise (issuing ultimatums, declaring protectorates when the other nation goes to war with countries, etc). If aggressive is turned on, nations will refuse offers of cease fire and limited sur-render.

If trade is turned on, the nation will consider accepting trade routes proposed by the other nation.

If alliance is turned on, the nation will accept alliance pro-posals offered by the other nation.


The default setting is ON for all these parameters - as I think you have found out.



Ralegh -> RE: Protectorate BUG PBEM (7/25/2005 5:34:44 AM)

Sorry if that came over as a little mean - it really did give me a good belly laugh though: a really significant (and quite interesting) change in the dynamics of Europe - accidentally.

I assume Britain had turned aggressive off towards France, and that Austria had left the default of ON for aggressvie with Prussia.

In PBEM if a minor without any enemies asks for a protector, it is automatically accepted. You can always free it if you dont want it, and this cuts down on actions needed between turns, and hence helps the pace. If the minor has enemies, it depends on your 'aggressive' setting towards that enemy.

Is it clear why all these countries wanted protectors? Why was Bavaria getting a protector at all? (In 1805 it is French protectorate already - are you playing a different scenario?) How about Thuringia?



MarcelJV -> RE: Protectorate BUG PBEM (7/25/2005 12:41:41 PM)

OK, so we should read the manual. I have read most of it but not this section. Bother.
Actually we are playing 1796, and England was protector of Saxony I had the name wrong. I am sure everyone except 2gualle did not know about the aggression thing. This explains it.

Thanks for the information.



Jordan -> RE: Protectorate BUG PBEM (7/25/2005 5:36:53 PM)

I read the section and still didn't get it.

quote:

If aggressive is turned on, then a nation will take any aggressive positions toward that nation whenever they arise (issuing ultimatums, declaring protectorates when the other nation goes to war with countries, etc). If aggressive is turned on, nations will refuse offers of cease fire and limited sur-render.

If trade is turned on, the nation will consider accepting trade routes proposed by the other nation.

If alliance is turned on, the nation will accept alliance pro-posals offered by the other nation.


Unfortunately this passage is preceded by a paragraph by what you "may" and "can" do. The alternatives before the reader are that one has a choice to decide for yourself how to behave toward other nations or to use these automatic parameters, kinda like the advisors. There needs to be a paragraph which states how PBEM is different and that these policy decisions must be set.



MarcelJV -> RE: Protectorate BUG PBEM (7/25/2005 6:14:15 PM)

This is specific for PBEM only. I would suggest turning everything off and then deciding who you do and do not want to be aggressive too. In this case I would think you want only France on the agression list. On the Trade list I might have everyone but France. I believe this will mean that if I propose a trade you may not be able to decline if you have a check box for Prussia on Trade. For alliances this must be in some way how you would responsd to proposals, as I believe England did not get a chance to respond to my treaty or, if he did, he forgot to respond to it.

Any clearer? If not we will figure it out as we play.
In the mean time my armies will sit tight in your capital.[;)]
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jordan

I read the section and still didn't get it.

quote:

If aggressive is turned on, then a nation will take any aggressive positions toward that nation whenever they arise (issuing ultimatums, declaring protectorates when the other nation goes to war with countries, etc). If aggressive is turned on, nations will refuse offers of cease fire and limited sur-render.

If trade is turned on, the nation will consider accepting trade routes proposed by the other nation.

If alliance is turned on, the nation will accept alliance pro-posals offered by the other nation.


Unfortunately this passage is preceded by a paragraph by what you "may" and "can" do. The alternatives before the reader are that one has a choice to decide for yourself how to behave toward other nations or to use these automatic parameters, kinda like the advisors. There needs to be a paragraph which states how PBEM is different and that these policy decisions must be set.




Jordan -> RE: Protectorate BUG PBEM (7/25/2005 6:36:18 PM)

Yeah after reading Raleghs post the ramifications dawned on me. My repsonse really was just a minor rant about unclear writing in the manual.

Possible suggestion for a future patch would be a PBEM response system for trades and protectorate offers, similar to the response system for diplomatic offers between nations. They could include it in the same module as the dipolmatic system.

Yes, England probably had you as "Aggressive" and the treaty was declined. This might help explain Russia towards me as well. Not that they weren't part of a strategy to help out vs France or anything.

Meanwhile, I'm preparing the Austrian people for a national moral loss when Sweden crushes the forces of Denmark (for whom I am now their protector) and takes their provinces. I need to buck up my volk for the potential massive morale hit I'm about to take from France. Edelweiss anyone?



munited18 -> RE: Protectorate BUG PBEM (7/25/2005 6:39:26 PM)

Raliegh,
I guess my question would be that no matter what these are all decided automaticall!? There is no setting of Policies that will allow me to DECIDE if I want to do/do not Cease Fire, etc. I find that very dissappointing. SImply because if I wanted the AI make diplomatic decisions then I would just turn the expert on and be done.
As Marcel said earlier, France di offer me a Cease Fire, and it was automatically rejected. Of course, had I had the choice I would have rejected the Cease Fire, but I never got the chance. Is their a way to get this changed in later patches, or is this one of those items that we just live with or not..
Thanks again for all your advice...



MarcelJV -> RE: Protectorate BUG PBEM (7/25/2005 6:59:32 PM)

You can release the protected state, which would then only hurt a little or is that what you are planing to do?
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jordan

Yeah after reading Raleghs post the ramifications dawned on me. My repsonse really was just a minor rant about unclear writing in the manual.

Possible suggestion for a future patch would be a PBEM response system for trades and protectorate offers, similar to the response system for diplomatic offers between nations. They could include it in the same module as the dipolmatic system.

Yes, England probably had you as "Aggressive" and the treaty was declined. This might help explain Russia towards me as well. Not that they weren't part of a strategy to help out vs France or anything.

Meanwhile, I'm preparing the Austrian people for a national moral loss when Sweden crushes the forces of Denmark (for whom I am now their protector) and takes their provinces. I need to buck up my volk for the potential massive morale hit I'm about to take from France. Edelweiss anyone?




Jordan -> RE: Protectorate BUG PBEM (7/25/2005 7:02:08 PM)

Seems like at least two of the other PBEM games have run into the same issues...not comprehending dipolmacy, trade, etc in PBEM



bluemonday -> RE: Protectorate BUG PBEM (7/25/2005 7:13:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ralegh

ROFL - RTFM - this is a feature. You guys may need to restart your game.

On page 74 of the manual - under the PBEM heading - it talks about the settings of the Set Policy screen. It says:

quote:


If aggressive is turned on, then a nation will take any aggressive positions toward that nation whenever they arise (issuing ultimatums, declaring protectorates when the other nation goes to war with countries, etc). If aggressive is turned on, nations will refuse offers of cease fire and limited sur-render.

If trade is turned on, the nation will consider accepting trade routes proposed by the other nation.

If alliance is turned on, the nation will accept alliance pro-posals offered by the other nation.


The default setting is ON for all these parameters - as I think you have found out.

Thanks for the presumption, but I found this fact out in my first PBEM game when France was accpeting the (inevitable) offer from Cyrenaica to be come a protector, and the same turn Turkey would declare war. The first thing I did was turn off aggressive stance to Turkey. Later in the game I kept offering cease-fires to Turkey. I never got a reply.



munited18 -> RE: Protectorate BUG PBEM (7/25/2005 7:41:41 PM)

I have no problem releasing Saxony. It is way out of the way for my Empire[:D]. However, is there away that you can trade Protectorates? Wouldn't that be interesting!?



Naomi -> RE: Protectorate BUG PBEM (7/25/2005 7:49:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: munited18

I have no problem releasing Saxony. It is way out of the way for my Empire[:D]. However, is there away that you can trade Protectorates? Wouldn't that be interesting!?

Trade or betray?



munited18 -> RE: Protectorate BUG PBEM (7/25/2005 9:13:14 PM)

You say tomato and I say tomAto[;)]

If we were able to trade protectorates, we would just make it clear to Saxony that Prussia is in a much better position to defend them from the nasty whiny French![:'(]



Ralegh -> RE: Protectorate BUG PBEM (7/26/2005 2:29:37 AM)

Well we can put it up as a suggestion for a patch - eric is already planning a range of PBEM enhancements ...

eric - the proposal is that when you enhance PBEM, let all this political stuff go through for a manual decision by the player when they are having their turn. The guys feel disempowered by the automatic handling, and would rather see it all. Adds colour to the game, too.



munited18 -> RE: Protectorate BUG PBEM (7/26/2005 3:17:07 PM)

Well put, sir!



Jordan -> RE: Protectorate BUG PBEM (7/26/2005 5:48:29 PM)

Maybe in the diplomatic section - where you accept or decline treaties - put a list of proposed trades and protectorate offers that we can accept or decline.



TheOldMan -> RE: Protectorate BUG PBEM (8/3/2005 9:03:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ralegh

Well we can put it up as a suggestion for a patch - eric is already planning a range of PBEM enhancements ...

eric - the proposal is that when you enhance PBEM, let all this political stuff go through for a manual decision by the player when they are having their turn. The guys feel disempowered by the automatic handling, and would rather see it all. Adds colour to the game, too.

In the current, pre-patch state of PBEM, what happens if, on the Policy menu, you have NO boxes marked for the other nation: not Aggressive, not Trade, not Alliance? Is every diplomatic and trade action by that other nation ignored?....or, like turning off an Advisor, does this permit the human player to respond to offers manually?



ian77 -> RE: Protectorate BUG PBEM (8/3/2005 9:09:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ralegh


eric - the proposal is that when you enhance PBEM, let all this political stuff go through for a manual decision by the player when they are having their turn. The guys feel disempowered by the automatic handling, and would rather see it all. Adds colour to the game, too.


Sounds good to me![:D]



MarcelJV -> RE: Protectorate BUG PBEM (8/3/2005 10:15:22 PM)

I would guess that they are declined. If you want to trade then you need to indicate, in which case trades may always be accepted. I have not had a trade offer yet, but have had my trades accepted. Can anyone validate that if I say to trade with someone that you get a choice on the trades? Makes sense to me that you would not, but I would like to know for sure.

I might test this out tonight on my LAN just to see.



ericbabe -> RE: Protectorate BUG PBEM (8/4/2005 2:57:15 AM)


Sounds like a good idea for an enhancement. Automatically converting the offer into a treaty proposal would be the way to do it, I should think.





MarcelJV -> RE: Protectorate BUG PBEM (8/4/2005 3:28:52 AM)

OK, so I tried this on my own and I believe that both sides have to say no trade for trades to be rejected out right. When one side or the other decides to trade then trades will be accepted, this will be based on how well you are liked by each side. This is a good thing as too much player control and really hurt another player and make the game no longer fun. So to stop trades both sides need to remove the x from the trade with box. I have tested this a really favourable trades are still reject.

Eric in your post what are you refering to?

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcelJV

I would guess that they are declined. If you want to trade then you need to indicate, in which case trades may always be accepted. I have not had a trade offer yet, but have had my trades accepted. Can anyone validate that if I say to trade with someone that you get a choice on the trades? Makes sense to me that you would not, but I would like to know for sure.

I might test this out tonight on my LAN just to see.





ericbabe -> RE: Protectorate BUG PBEM (8/4/2005 4:03:33 PM)

Oh, to things like offering cease fires and surrenders.



MarcelJV -> RE: Protectorate BUG PBEM (8/4/2005 6:53:22 PM)

Ok, that makes sense.



Jordan -> RE: Protectorate BUG PBEM (8/4/2005 7:47:06 PM)

I'd like the capability to accept or decline protectorate offers as well as each trade offer. There are some trades I'd be willing to accept from a nation and some I wouldn't want.



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