X1 ripping off modders in SH3 expansion? (Full Version)

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Hertston -> X1 ripping off modders in SH3 expansion? (7/26/2005 9:41:22 AM)

It seems that X1 software (developers (?!) of the the "Banzai!" Pacific Fighters expansion published by Matrix) have "created" their upcoming Silent Hunter 3 expansion largely from the uncredited and unauthorised work of the modding community. Source SUBSIM

Could someone from Matrix please confirm that you will NOT be publishing this product?



Tankerace -> RE: X1 ripping off modders in SH3 expansion? (7/26/2005 10:01:01 AM)

WOW. Nothing wrong with selling an add on, but to steal other people's work.... incredible.



Erik Rutins -> RE: X1 ripping off modders in SH3 expansion? (7/26/2005 4:46:00 PM)

Since we have published previous X1 titles, we were indeed discussing this one as well. We are aware of these allegations and have been checking into them. We are verifying that everything contained in the SH3 expansion has written permission from the respective modders for its inclusion. It will have to be 100% in that respect for us to publish it.

Regards,

- Erik



Grouchy -> RE: X1 ripping off modders in SH3 expansion? (7/26/2005 5:57:13 PM)

No need to look for proof.
Lol, those guys where even dumb enough to leave the orignal readmes in.

Sansai's Milk cow mod is in there
Serg's multiple DD skins and type 7 DD and additional merchant's
Beery's Flotilla mod.
JuJu's mil mods.
Nico71 mods.
Observer's mod.
Iambecomelife's smoke mod.



Beery -> RE: X1 ripping off modders in SH3 expansion? (7/28/2005 7:50:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grouchy

No need to look for proof.
Lol, those guys where even dumb enough to leave the orignal readmes in.

Sansai's Milk cow mod is in there
Serg's multiple DD skins and type 7 DD and additional merchant's
Beery's Flotilla mod...


If my Flotilla mod is included in this expansion, I certainly gave no permission - I was never even asked. I know of at least two other people whose mods are included who either were not asked, or gave permission for one mod to be used, but X1 used a different mod that they were explicitly asked NOT to use.

X1 are currently scrambling to remove unauthorized mods from the expansion, but they are also still trying to use some unauthorized mods based on limited permissions being given by some mod-makers. I believe my Flotilla mod has now been removed from the package, but some mod-makers are still battling with X1 to either get X1 to remove their mods, or to get X1 to use only the mods that they gave permission for.

It's a bad situation, and I can't believe that X1 (which seems to be a somewhat established company) has acted so unscrupulously and/or unprofessionally.

Heck, it's not like mod-makers really care about recognition or even about someone making a bit of money. It's the principle of the thing. By not even considering it necessary to contact the authors of the mods in question, the folks behind X1 have shown a marked disrespect for the people whose mods they tried to steal. If they had come to me and just asked me for permission, I would probably have said "Sure, use the mod, no problem, and I hope you make some money from it". But apparently they didn't even think about asking me (or anyone else whose mods they wanted). I've also seen some correspondence from them that indicates a marked disregard - even contempt - for mod-makers. I fear that the guys at X1 regard any mods as theirs by divine right and concerns like copyright infringement and decency don't enter the equation. It seems that they regard modmakers as just a convenient cash cow that they can milk whenever it suits them.

That's just my impression.



nico71 -> RE: X1 ripping off modders in SH3 expansion? (7/28/2005 10:37:00 PM)

In my case I have given Len Hjalmarson the permission to use my cities and port escorts for his World Mod a couple of months ago, but in the same moment I have made it perfectly clear to him that this permission is for non-commercial use only. Now he did argue that I gave him a general permission to use the mod, including the permission to sell it. I had to threaten them with a lawsuit to force the removal of my mod. BTW, I expect a REMOVAL, not just some cosmetic changes!

I agree with Beery, though! If they had just asked......

This is absolutely unprofessional!



Sarge -> RE: X1 ripping off modders in SH3 expansion? (7/29/2005 5:41:44 AM)

What were they thinking [&:]

Its a close modding community, did they really think they slip this one under the radar. Its all over the wargaming forums that this expansion is just a collection of stolen mods. X1 just kissed alot of future customers good bye.

LAME




David Heath -> RE: X1 ripping off modders in SH3 expansion? (7/29/2005 5:42:50 AM)

Hi Guys

I do agree that no one mod should be used without asking. At the same time I do feel a lot of gamers would enjoy them in one package and be more willing to try them out. What if Matrix wanted to contact these modders and ask them for that permission. Is there a list anyone has of these mod designers. Any help you guys could give would be very helpful.


David Heath
Matrix Games



Beery -> RE: X1 ripping off modders in SH3 expansion? (7/29/2005 6:07:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Heath

...I do agree that no one mod should be used without asking. At the same time I do feel a lot of gamers would enjoy them in one package and be more willing to try them out. What if Matrix wanted to contact these modders and ask them for that permission. Is there a list anyone has of these mod designers. Any help you guys could give would be very helpful...


David, many of these mods are already available in one package - in fact there are two free packages of SH3 mods - one (Real U-boat) is a free package devoted to realism in SH3, and the other one (Un-Real U-boat) is a modification of the Real U-boat package which is more attuned to casual players. Each of these packages ALREADY bundle up a lot of the most popular mods into a single download - freely available to all players. These packages were created by a large team of about 30 mod-makers who got together for the benefit of the whole community.

It has already been done. X1 is merely trying to do it again, but this time for a profit, hoping to make money from people who are unaware of the free packages that are already available.

If Matrix games wanted to contact the mod makers directly with the aim of producing a commercial product, I'm sure many would be willing to look at it - after all, we already have packages available, but at this stage I doubt if anyone would want X1 to be a part of that. If you want, I could contact the team and see if they would want to do something like that.



Hertston -> RE: X1 ripping off modders in SH3 expansion? (7/29/2005 8:33:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

What were they thinking [&:]

Its a close modding community, did they really think they slip this one under the radar. Its all over the wargaming forums that this expansion is just a collection of stolen mods. X1 just kissed alot of future customers good bye.

LAME





I agree. I like to put in my two-penneth as a customer (as opposed to a modder, which I am not) here, if I may.

These sort of products (and there have been a few before), IMHO, should not be supported in any fashion. Many SH3 fans are likely to buy this, especially if it appears on store shelves, only to find it contains essentially nothing but material they have downloaded already, or could download for free. They have spent money on what they already have. They are NOT "supporting the developers" (I'm all in favour of that), they are supporting people trying to make a fast buck off the backs of those developers - permission or not.

I would love to see a "professional" expansion for SH3, from X1, Matrix or anybody else. If X1 produce their own, original material, or commission new and exclusive material from somebody else I'll be quite happy to fork out some cash.



Marc von Martial -> RE: X1 ripping off modders in SH3 expansion? (7/29/2005 3:57:03 PM)


Guys, in favor of X1 please simply keep in mind a couple of facts that a lot of the people on certain forums do not keep in mind or simply ingnore when they created this whole fuzz.

1. Certain people illegally downloaded a pre beta version of the addon from the X1 FTP and act like it was the final retail version allready on the store shelves
2. Yes, mods were included in this package.
3. The package illegally download was a pre beta version with the mods they want(ed) to add to the package. Negotiations if it´s okay to include the mods with the modmakers were, and still are, under way at that point and adding to this a lot of modmakers allready gave their okay to have the mods inlcuded, even before this incident
4. The "Seawolves" addon does contain new missions and campaigns done by developer of "Seawolves" (please note that X1 is only the publisher, not the developer), so it does contain original and new material.
5. The included mods are only goodies, including mods to addons packages is no new concept.
6. Seawolves is not simply some mods put on a CD.

I´m coming from the modding scene and I know from my own experience that some people allways think "modders = good" - "pro developers = "bad".
Everybody likes to believe the fellow gamer more then sombody offical. Cause officials allways only want to rip of gamers.
Certain people have an agenda when it comes to mods and developers "touching" them. They play mod police regardless of facts.

This very same thing happend when a whole bunch of Close Combat mods (among them a few of mine) where legally put on a PC Games magazines CD. That certain magazine(s) got the okay from all modders featured, still people where screaming foul that the magazine was making money with other peoples work. Regardless of any facts provided. Those facts were simply "not true" of course as certain people wanted to make everybody believe. You will find this happening in every game community.


Of course I know that it will not convince people that allready have made up their mind. And I don´t try to convince them. The internet is a wierd place where people really love to buy into "conspiracies" and even more love to be part of them.



Beery -> RE: X1 ripping off modders in SH3 expansion? (7/29/2005 4:34:19 PM)

None of that changes the fact that some modmakers (for example Irishred) gave permission for one mod ONLY to be used, and the people building the expansion are still (right now as I type) planning on using parts of one of his mods that he didn't authorize them to use. If the folks behind Seewolfe are the victims here, why don't they just remove this part of the expansion? Why do they persist in using a mod which they know full well they don't have authorization to use?

Plus, the reason why some people downloaded from X1's ftp site was that X1 had advertised the expansion using screenshots that clearly showed peoples' mods who had never received word of any kind from X1 (some still have had no contact from the folks behind Seewolfe). I'm sorry, but you don't advertise that you're going to be using someone's mods unless you aim to use them. It's disingenuous to suggest that the builders of the expansion intended to contact the mod-makers. Clearly they did not. While it may indeed be fashionable to think "modders = good" - "pro developers = "bad", this is certainly a case where what's fashionable just happens to be factual.

If the Seewolfe folks have their own content (missions, campaigns), why don't they release that stuff? Why do they desire to pad it out with mods that they don't have the right to use? X1 has a simple choice to make - either remove all content they don't have permission to use, or get permission to use the mods. So far they have done neither.

The mod community that created many of the mods that X1 intends to use are hardly 'the mod police'. All we want is a little respect. We made the mods, and we simply want to be consulted before people try to make a profit from them. Anyway, labels don't make arguments. Let's discuss this responsibly. Those sorts of labels, intended to polarize debate, do no one any good.



Erik Rutins -> RE: X1 ripping off modders in SH3 expansion? (7/29/2005 4:42:07 PM)

Marc just spoke with Steffen of X1 and this is what he told us. As Dave and I have noted above, we are going to verify everything and make sure no mods or portions of mods are included without permission before we consider publishing this and accepting money for it.

Regards,

- Erik



Marc von Martial -> RE: X1 ripping off modders in SH3 expansion? (7/29/2005 4:47:21 PM)

I´m not saying the developers of "Seawolves" are the victims here. I just give some points to think about.
I fully agree that there were stupid things done by the developers. No doubt about that. At the same point there were certain extremly unfair things done by certain people on the subsim forums.

Both sides have an equal guilt on how the whole thing developed.
It really amazes me how fast one can gather a lynch mob that follows withouth asking [;)]





Beery -> RE: X1 ripping off modders in SH3 expansion? (7/29/2005 4:59:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck

...Both sides have an equal guilt on how the whole thing developed.


That's simply not true. Some mod-makers may indeed have acted wrongly in downloading a mod from a site without permission, but they did so because they thought they were being cheated, and lo and behold - turns out they were right. Only when all of this came to light did the folks behind Seewolfe start backpedalling. I have no doubt that if the SH3 mod community hadn't seen the advertisements for Seewolfe, the expansion would have contained a lot of mods that no one ever gave permission for. Some of us are still fighting (unsuccessfully) to have them remove our mods. Let's not cloud the issue. This is a situation where a developer has stolen mods that were never intended to be used in a commercial product.

As for the 'lynch mob' comment, again, that's an ad-hominem attack. I am trying to discuss this with you on a basis of mutual respect, and name-calling has no place here.



RBWhite -> RE: X1 ripping off modders in SH3 expansion? (7/29/2005 5:02:24 PM)

My personal opinon is that the use of someone elses property and or Ideas (in this case) without that persons permission = Theft (period)

No explanations or excuses should be offered, return the or discontinue use of said property, until permission is granted legally, In Written Form.
yada, yada, yada.

Just a thought

Rick White



Marc von Martial -> RE: X1 ripping off modders in SH3 expansion? (7/29/2005 5:06:30 PM)

I gave some food for thought from fact I know. I dont´want to defend anybody here. Nor do I want this discussion to start up again here. Understood?
I don´t need this "one sentence quotes" stuff. I have seen this to often. And I can do the same.

If you want to discuss the matter take it where it belongs. We´re currently in no way connected to this product.



Marc von Martial -> RE: X1 ripping off modders in SH3 expansion? (7/29/2005 5:07:11 PM)

Okay, I´m closing this now.



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